The Hopi And The Book Of Mormon

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Kerry, you are the master of ferreting out obscure texts. Eugene Naranjo told

my parents about a man named Clemente who periodically visited the Santa Clara

Pueblo in northern New Mexico. I wish I had paid better attention and written down

what they related to me about Clemente. I know this sounds strange, but, IIRC,

Eugene compared him with one of the 3 Nephites. Don't quote me because I don't

have a lot of information. I'm going to go through my mother's papers to see if she

wrote anything about him. I've been looking for something about him for a long time.

Now that I've found an extended interview with Eugene, maybe there will be something

In there...or maybe you can work your magic...

Bernard

I honestly wouldn't know where to even look amigo.......

[Bernard Gui]

These are just a few links to some research I've either done or been able to dig up off of my blog. This is one of my favorite subjects to study. I would agree that the Helaman 3 scripture refers to many of the ancestors of the Hopi and other modern day Pueblo and many other tribes as well. Feel free to search my blog more if you'd like I've been able to spend considerable time with the Hopi and Navajo so I would say that I dedicate most of my reasearch in that direction. I think that Hugh Nibley was on to something in his comparison of the LDS Temple ceremony to that of the Hopi ceremonies in their Kiva's but thats a whole different subject that I would love to expound on later.

Have you run across any stories of Clemente?

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

I honestly wouldn't know where to even look amigo.......

I can dig it. Dang I wish I had paid attention when I was young.

Bernard

[volgadon]

Esteban Clemente.

[Cobalt-70]

Who said Helaman 3 "explains the Hopi"?

You, apparently. Maybe you should post more than two-word responses, so that you don't end up saying something you don't mean.

[nosmelone]

Have you run across any stories of Clemente?

Bernard

Sorry I'm not familiar with a Clemente, but I do know that my Grandmother (in law) who was the first person of Hispanic descent to be married in the Mesa AZ temple told stories of a man that used to visit the Lamanite conferences that were held years ago on the temple grounds. Apparently he was white but dressed like a native american and he used to visit the conference every now and then. As a young woman she used to wonder who he was and her parents and many others that would attend the conferences used to honestly toy with the thought of him being one of the three nephites. Ironically her sister supposedly has a picture of this guy somewhere but has yet to be able to produce it.

[Bernard Gui]

Sorry I'm not familiar with a Clemente, but I do know that my Grandmother (in law) who was the first person of Hispanic descent to be married in the Mesa AZ temple told stories of a man that used to visit the Lamanite conferences that were held years ago on the temple grounds. Apparently he was white but dressed like a native american and he used to visit the conference every now and then. As a young woman she used to wonder who he was and her parents and many others that would attend the conferences used to honestly toy with the thought of him being one of the three nephites. Ironically her sister supposedly has a picture of this guy somewhere but has yet to be able to produce it.

Eugene Naranjo (Santa Clara Tewa) said Clemente periodically visited his pueblo but I don't recall

him saying anything about him being white. By white I mean Caucasian.

I have read the 56 page interview with him. He talks a lot about his experiences in the Church,

but does not mention Clemente.

http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/uaida-oht&CISOPTR=2152

Bernard

[brightpath]

The title of this thread should be Native Americans(Lamanites) and the Book of Mormon. All Native American tribes are descendants of Lehi. The are many native customs that are similar to LDS beliefs. The Book of Mormon is a familiar spirit to them crying from the dust as prophesied by the Book of Mormon.

[Cobalt-70]

The title of this thread should be Native Americans(Lamanites) and the Book of Mormon. All Native American tribes are descendants of Lehi. The are many native customs that are similar to LDS beliefs. The Book of Mormon is a familiar spirit to them crying from the dust as prophesied by the Book of Mormon.

Even the LDS Church itself is backing away from that claim. It's just not tenable. By all available evidence, Native Americans are descendants of Asiatic tribes that settled in Beringia during the last ice age. If there is any Lehite blood flowing through the veins of Native Americans, it is vanishingly small, and the genetic influence is not yet discovered.

[brightpath]

So in your opinion who are the Lamanites? The land bridge theory states Asians came across the straight 14000 to 20000 hrs ago. If the human race is only 6000 years old how does this theory hold water? The church taught this doctrine since 1830 then in the last 10-15 years they backtrack. So I guess the founder of this church Joseph Smith was wrong and the current leadership knows more then him.

[cdowis]

So in your opinion who are the Lamanites? The land bridge theory states Asians came across the straight 14000 to 20000 hrs ago. If the human race is only 6000 years old how does this theory hold water? The church taught this doctrine since 1830 then in the last 10-15 years they backtrack. So I guess the founder of this church Joseph Smith was wrong and the current leadership knows more then him.

The chronology of human habitation is an open issue for believers. The lack of explanation for many complex biological mechanisms are also an open issue for evolutionists (they do not hold water, as you would say).

Both sides believe that answers are forthcoming with more time and research, and we will know more than our predecessors.

Edited July 4, 2012 by cdowis

[ERayR]

I have no problem with that. The Uto Aztecan languages appear to be spread from The Gulf of Tehuatepec north to Utah at about the proper time period for a migratiion by Hagoth shipping. I believe they migrated up the west coast of Mexico.

When one looks you can find multiple migrations mentioned. Some by land and some by sea. When war starts to push people around there are always those who do all they can to get away from it and many if not most of these would not be recorded in the Book of Mormon.

Edited July 4, 2012 by ERayR

[cursor]

Formatting is horrible, very difficult to read.

Wait ... WHAT formatting?

[ANACO]

Hello all, I recently re read Brian Stubbs article from FAIR on Uto Aztecan languages and similarities to Hebrew/Egyptian. I recall being given a tape forever ago by my parents called They Saw Our Day by a guy named Lance Richardson (who is well known for writing a book about his nde called The Message) He talks about how the Hopi had a tradition where they would bury an arrow in the earth to symbolise their desire to live a peaceful life. The point being implied was that this was similar to the massacre of the anti nephi lehies. If i recall there were some other similarities in the story but don't recall them right now (I think that the myth also mentioned people being massacred like in the BoM). Anyways, is anyone aware of any other work done linking the Hopi to the BoM?

This same tradition of burying weapons of War is found in the poem "Hiawatha." The symbolism of baptism is noted.

If you read that large poem, you'll also note 12 Tribes which gathered together to covenant to live peacefully. It's a very large poem, the most famous being Hiawatha "near the shores of Gitchegumee, the "Shining Big Sea Water" or Lake Superior - which could be one of the "seas" referred to in the Book of Mormon.

The poem, according to Longfellow, was based on Indian Tradition.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/LonHiaw.html

See Chapter 1 "The Peace Pipe"

Bathe now in the stream before you,

Wash the war-paint from your faces,

Wash the blood-stains from your fingers,

Bury your war-clubs and your weapons,

Break the red stone from this quarry,

Mould and make it into Peace-Pipes,

Take the reeds that grow beside you,

Deck them with your brightest feathers,

Smoke the calumet together,

And as brothers live henceforward!"

Then upon the ground the warriors

Threw their cloaks and shirts of deer-skin,

Threw their weapons and their war-gear,

Leaped into the rushing river,

Washed the war-paint from their faces.

Clear above them flowed the water,

Clear and limpid from the footprints

Of the Master of Life descending;

Dark below them flowed the water,

Soiled and stained with streaks of crimson,

As if blood were mingled with it!

From the river came the warriors,

Clean and washed from all their war-paint;

On the banks their clubs they buried,

Buried all their warlike weapons.

Gitche Manito, the mighty,

The Great Spirit, the creator,

Smiled upon his helpless children!

And in silence all the warriors

Broke the red stone of the quarry,

Smoothed and formed it into Peace-Pipes,

Broke the long reeds by the river,

Gitche Manito, or The Great Spirit has derivations such as Manitoba, Manitoba Lake, (Canada), etc.

The "12" Tribes are noted later in this chapter - possibly a reference to the 12 Nephite Disciples.

[nosmelone]

The title of this thread should be Native Americans(Lamanites) and the Book of Mormon. All Native American tribes are descendants of Lehi. The are many native customs that are similar to LDS beliefs. The Book of Mormon is a familiar spirit to them crying from the dust as prophesied by the Book of Mormon.

I admit that may be the case. I know that Golden Buchanan Mission President over the South West Indian mission covering AZ, NM, and Parts of CO,NV and UT in the 1950's stated that he believes that there are slivers of truth and and parallels of the Book of Mormon found throughout all Native American traditional stories and I agree. But from my research it seems to much more common among the Hopi or the larger Pueblo people as a whole. It fits with their migration stories and traditional stories and in comparison to their solstice rituals to the LDS Temple ceremony I see a lot of parallels there as well. Nibley in speaking on these same parallels said, "we know where we got ours, where did they get theirs?" He said this in a hinting fashion in hopes to make the reader or listener realize that these people must have obtained their ceremony's from an ancient source as well which also fits the Book of Mormon people who we know had a temple ceremony. An interesting this is that many early Hopi when hearing the LDS missionaries (Chief Tuvvi or Tuba for example) knew immediatley that the Book of Mormon was true because of its parallel to their traditional stories. Some of their traditional stories told about the comming of a Book of their ancestors from the white man. I could ramble on forever....anyways interesting stuff.

[Cobalt-70]

This same tradition of burying weapons of War is found in the poem "Hiawatha." The symbolism of baptism is noted.

If you read that large poem, you'll also note 12 Tribes which gathered together to covenant to live peacefully. It's a very large poem, the most famous being Hiawatha "near the shores of Gitchegumee, the "Shining Big Sea Water" or Lake Superior - which could be one of the "seas" referred to in the Book of Mormon.

The poem, according to Longfellow, was based on Indian Tradition.

http://etext.lib.vir...ic/LonHiaw.html

See Chapter 1 "The Peace Pipe"

Bathe now in the stream before you,

Wash the war-paint from your faces,

Wash the blood-stains from your fingers,

Bury your war-clubs and your weapons,

Break the red stone from this quarry,

Mould and make it into Peace-Pipes,

Take the reeds that grow beside you,

Deck them with your brightest feathers,

Smoke the calumet together,

And as brothers live henceforward!"

Then upon the ground the warriors

Threw their cloaks and shirts of deer-skin,

Threw their weapons and their war-gear,

Leaped into the rushing river,

Washed the war-paint from their faces.

Clear above them flowed the water,

Clear and limpid from the footprints

Of the Master of Life descending;

Dark below them flowed the water,

Soiled and stained with streaks of crimson,

As if blood were mingled with it!

From the river came the warriors,

Clean and washed from all their war-paint;

On the banks their clubs they buried,

Buried all their warlike weapons.

Gitche Manito, the mighty,

The Great Spirit, the creator,

Smiled upon his helpless children!

And in silence all the warriors

Broke the red stone of the quarry,

Smoothed and formed it into Peace-Pipes,

Broke the long reeds by the river,

Gitche Manito, or The Great Spirit has derivations such as Manitoba, Manitoba Lake, (Canada), etc.

The "12" Tribes are noted later in this chapter - possibly a reference to the 12 Nephite Disciples.

The Iroquois "bury the hatchet" tradition and idiom was already old when Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon. He would have been just as aware of that idiom and tradition as was Longfellow, who in any event based his poem on a source by Henry Schoolcraft which is considered to be a deeply flawed ethnographic work.

[Cobalt-70]

I admit that may be the case. I know that Golden Buchanan Mission President over the South West Indian mission covering AZ, NM, and Parts of CO,NV and UT in the 1950's stated that he believes that there are slivers of truth and and parallels of the Book of Mormon found throughout all Native American traditional stories and I agree. But from my research it seems to much more common among the Hopi or the larger Pueblo people as a whole.

If you were to take the ancient stories of any culture, such as the Viking, the ancient Chinese, or the native Australians, you are bound to find what seem like parallels with the Book of Mormon. You see them in the Hopi and other traditions because you are looking for them, and earnestly want them to exist. It's called confirmation bias.

For example, in Norse mythology, there is a tree of life whose roots shelter the realm of Niflheim (obviously, Nephi). At the base of the tree is the Hvergelmir, the source of many rivers (obviously the "river of water" from the Book of Mormon). There's probably enough there for some apologist to propose, on just as solid ground as any other limited geography theory, that the events of the Book of Mormon occurred in Denmark--which, by the way, has a "narrow neck of land" and actually did have horses.

[brightpath]

Let me relate a true story that proves BorM traditions are within the Lamanites culture. In Anasco Puerto Rico in the town square there is a giant statue of 3 Taino Indians dunking a spaniard in the river. The significants is the Tainos welcomed the Spaniards and thought they were gods of course. When the Spaniards turned on them and started to exploit them they kidnapped one a drowned him in the river and laid him on the banks of the river. They said if he was truly a god that he would arise in 3 days. So they checked on him on day 1 day 2 and day 3. When he did not arise on the 3rd day they knew the Spaniards were not gods and started to fight and rebel against them.

[Calm]

Have a link or reference?

[cursor]

Statue at Anasco, Puerto Rico: http://www.vialin.co...cles/art2s.html

photo: http://www.vialin.co...ticles/DSC4.JPG

T r a n s i a t i o n

In the main square of Añasco, in front of the Church, your attention is called to a peculiar monument because it represents the Borinquen Indians submerging the head of a white man to make sure they were gods. Unfortunate for the clever man [doesn't make sense to me]. It is said by historians that a representation of the death of Sacedo, Spanish boy who wanted to cross the river and sought help from the Indians to stay dry. As the story goes, the Indians who were unhappy with their lot, had planned to carry out that action, once executed/done the body was checked for several days just to make sure it was really dead.

The Spaniard was Diego Salcedo. The drowning was in 1511.

Here is another great photo of the statue: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/yfzTDA5FVvpUjEPvQnjiPA

Edited July 11, 2012 by cursor