Interfaith Relations And The Maxwell Institute

[CASteinman]

I learned in physics that anything that took energy is an action.

I don't think that definition applies -- as even a thought will require energy. But a thought is not considered an act in the Church.

[Calm]

I don't think that definition applies -- as even a thought will require energy. But a thought is not considered an act in the Church.

Some thoughts are. For example, if we use our thoughts to nurture faith or lack of faith or to promote other unhealthy thoughts......

I think the difference between a thought that is an act and one that is not an act as defined by the Church is the spontaneous nature of it, but even there if one has created a mental or spiritual environment that promotes either spontaneous spiritual or inappropriate thoughts, the thought process that create that environment is considered an act in that the person is accountable for it.

Edited June 25, 2012 by calmoriah

[Damien the Leper]

Is talking about your beliefs an action? How about explaining why you believe what you do? Beliefs matter in Mormonism.

Maxine Hanks publicly and explicitly expressed a call of Mormon Feminism. She was excommunicated for her hard position. Did she deserve excommunication? I don't know.

Janice Allred was excommunicated for not complying with a request not to publish a reflective (non-doctrinal) piece about God the Mother because it was not part of the mainstream LDS belief. False accusations abound that she did so just to be a rebel. I've spoken with Janice...there is nothing I've seen in her theological reflections and attitude that warranted her excommunication. However, her stake president has remained silent on the issue and we don't know his side.

[Evangeline]

"The Mussulman condemns the heathen, the Jew, and the Christian, and the whole world of mankind that reject his Koran, as infidels, and consigns the whole of them to perdition. The Jew believes that the whole world that rejects his faith and are not circumcised, are Gentile dogs, all will be damned. The heathen is equally as tenacious about his principles, and the Christian consigns all to perdition who cannot bow to his creed, and submit to his ipse dixit. But while one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes "His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but "according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil," in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India." - Joseph Smith - 1842

CASteinman, thanks for those great quotes! The second half of this particular quote by Joseph Smith is fabulous, but I tend to think he has mischaracterized the other religions he speaks of. That's unfortunate, since as LDS we dislike having our beliefs mischaracterized. I always cringe when I hear other religions get lambasted. Still, he's speaking from the context of his day and with what understanding he had.

[CASteinman]

CASteinman, thanks for those great quotes! The second half of this particular quote by Joseph Smith is fabulous, but I tend to think he has mischaracterized the other religions he speaks of. That's unfortunate, since as LDS we dislike having our beliefs mischaracterized. I always cringe when I hear other religions get lambasted. Still, he's speaking from the context of his day and with what understanding he had.

You are welcome!

I'm not sure he got it all that wrong -- especially for his day. Most religions were saying: "I am right, you are wrong". I don't think Joseph Smith was totally different in that regard, but he was different in this way: He did not consider it a horror for someone to disagree with him. He did not consider errors in doctrine to be exactly the same thing as gross sin. And he knew by revelation that God saves all men and intends to have everyone who will -- come into Celestial Glory.

Edited June 25, 2012 by CASteinman

[Evangeline]

You are welcome!

I'm not sure he got it all that wrong -- especially for his day. Most religions were saying: "I am right, you are wrong". I don't think Joseph Smith was totally different in that regard, but he was different in this way: He did not consider it a horror for someone to disagree with him. He did not consider errors in doctrine to be exactly the same thing as gross sin. And he knew by revelation that God saves all men and intends to have everyone who will -- come into Celestial Glory.

I get ya. I don't know exactly what all these other religions believed in Joseph's time, but I do understand that they have changed over time and softened some of their stances.

[Senator]

I would think the Church of Jesus Christ doesn't need an inquisition; Dehlin's bishop and stake president don't need the help of the MI in determining whether or not he is sincere, do they?

Maybe the Petersen,Schryver,Smith gang need to be brought under the umbrella of the Strenghthening the Membership committee. (or whatever it's called)

They could be its Apostate Forensics Special Forces. The AFSF. Yes folks, you heard it coined right here for the very first time!!!

[wenglund]

Maybe the Petersen,Schryver,Smith gang need to be brought under the umbrella of the Strenghthening the Membership committee. (or whatever it's called)

Rumor has it that they are already prominent members of the Illuminati...so no need.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[rameumptom]

From my understanding, this is just one of several articles black listed by MI. And Bradford's desire to change FARMS has long been known, even before Greg Smith's article on Dehlin darkened his door. That Bradford, Dehlin, nor anyone else has read the article, how do they really know what it contains?

Like any member, a person like Dehlin who is "worthy" to be in the Church today, may not be so tomorrow. Sonia Johnson was allowed her voice on the ERA issue, until she asked people not to allow the missionaries into their homes as a protest against the Church's stance. So, one day she was worthy, the next day she stepped over the line. Dehlin began his Mormon Stories as a good program that could ostensibly inspire others. Now, it has a lot of stories on why people leave, opening the door to ease more people out who may have questions or issues.

This does not jibe with the Church's continual focus on bringing people into the Church, missionary work, and the plea to "come back".

Dehlin admits he no longer believes, but remains a member for practical purposes (family, etc). That is fine with me. What is not fine is if he begins a process that helps people leave the Church easier. In my view, that is contrary to the Church's program and doctrines, and therefore he should not be involved in such things as a lapsed member. If he chooses to ease people out as a non-member (as many others do) then that is his prerogative.

As it is, I believe he is trying to walk right on the edge of the cliff. Unless he moves away from the edge, eventually, he's going to fall off. At that point, any of those who have overly supported his Mormon Stories will have to review their own views and support for him. Even GAs can make mistakes, btw. Pres Hinckley, for instance, did have dealings with Mark Hoffmann that almost led to his death. Only the hand of the Lord saved Pres Hinckley, causing the bomb meant for him to blow up in Hoffmann's hands.

Me, I personally prefer to stay far from the cliff's edge. And while I don't mind having non-believers as friends (I consider Dan Vogel a friend, for instance), I do not mix friendship with religion and faith.

Now, if my Church leadership were to tell me that Dan, FARMS, and I are wrong on this, then I will gladly change my tune. But until that happens, I do not see how the evidence can go in any other direction.

[Aliwe]

Dehlin began his Mormon Stories as a good program that could ostensibly inspire others. Now, it has a lot of stories on why people leave, opening the door to ease more people out who may have questions or issues.

That's one way to look at it. Another way is that Dehlin has lots of stories on why people leave as a wake up call to the Church, for reform. If you squash that information, then people are still going to leave, but no one will know why, and nothing will be done to stem the tide.