Celestial Men Becoming Future Saviors

[Acris Venator]

This quote by Wilford Woodruff:

"President Young said there never was any world created & peopled nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are ever exalted and crowned in the presence of God we shall become saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its effect. Adam made this world and suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that redemption & exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any change in the gospel of salvation, It is an eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the endless age of eternity. There never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same gosple & law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World's End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290

...makes me wonder if there are any similar statements about men becoming saviors for future worlds by other prophets such as BY or JS. Is a messiah-level sacrifice the sort of thing that creates the symmetry between Priesthood and motherhood? Was Christ's atonement a response to motherhood, and his decision in Gethsemane a reflection of Eve's decision in Eden? Any help would be appreciated.

[thesometimesaint]

See the Universal Atonement by Elder Uchtdorf. .

• "Faith in Jesus Christ and a testimony of Him and His universal Atonement is not just a doctrine with great theological value. Such faith is a universal gift, glorious for all cultural regions of this earth, irrespective of language, race, color, nationality, or socioeconomic circumstance. The powers of reason may be used to try to understand this gift, but those who feel its effects most deeply are those who are willing to accept its blessings, which come from a pure and clean life of following the path of true repentance and living the commandments of God."
  

“The Fruits of the First Vision,” Ensign, May 2005

Edited May 31, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[mfbukowski]

We all become saviors when we attend the temple

[Darren10]

I agree we can all act in some capacity as "saviors" but theologically-speaking, there is but one LORD who was YHWH or Jehovah who was Jesus Christ. He and He alone atoned forthe blood of man. If there are peoples of other worlds beyond our own, He atoned for them as well. His sacrfice was the infinite and eternal sacrifce. According to LDS faith and worship, beyond Jesus Christ there is no Savior ad there is no being exalted by the Most High to be above all that is. Things like Woodruff are speculative and I find no reason to make his words anything near front and center of LDS theology. It's peripheral doctrine, nothing more.

[Acris Venator]

I agree we can all act in some capacity as "saviors" but theologically-speaking, there is but one LORD who was YHWH or Jehovah who was Jesus Christ. He and He alone atoned forthe blood of man. If there are peoples of other worlds beyond our own, He atoned for them as well. His sacrfice was the infinite and eternal sacrifce. According to LDS faith and worship, beyond Jesus Christ there is no Savior ad there is no being exalted by the Most High to be above all that is. Things like Woodruff are speculative and I find no reason to make his words anything near front and center of LDS theology. It's peripheral doctrine, nothing more.

I'm open to you assertion that Woodruff's thoughts here were speculative. But am I to understand from your statement that if I go on to the CK and have spirit children with my wife, that if they ever gain bodies and are "saved" on some other world that it will be by the same exact Atonement performed by the Messiah that came to this world?

[ERayR]

I'm open to you assertion that Woodruff's thoughts here were speculative. But am I to understand from your statement that if I go on to the CK and have spirit children with my wife, that if they ever gain bodies and are "saved" on some other world that it will be by the same exact Atonement performed by the Messiah that came to this world?

All that can be offered as an answer to your question can only be speculative. Since it is known that the advancement of God's species(children) is a continuous and ongoing activity and it appears that it is divided into groups, it could reasonable be argued that activities required in its process be repeated at intervals for different organized groups.

While nothing has been specifically revealed there is enough for reasonable minds to disagree.

[altersteve]

I'm open to you assertion that Woodruff's thoughts here were speculative. But am I to understand from your statement that if I go on to the CK and have spirit children with my wife, that if they ever gain bodies and are "saved" on some other world that it will be by the same exact Atonement performed by the Messiah that came to this world?

In my opinion, yes.

[mfbukowski]

I'm open to you assertion that Woodruff's thoughts here were speculative. But am I to understand from your statement that if I go on to the CK and have spirit children with my wife, that if they ever gain bodies and are "saved" on some other world that it will be by the same exact Atonement performed by the Messiah that came to this world?

Indeed, that is what has been taught again and again.

[BCSpace]

I don't believe we will all become saviors to other words/universes in the same sense that Christ is. However, I do believe the notion that we will be saviors has to do with us setting examples, teaching, doing the ordinances, and judging righteously:

And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.

Obadiah 1:21

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:2

[Darren10]

I'm open to you assertion that Woodruff's thoughts here were speculative. But am I to understand from your statement that if I go on to the CK and have spirit children with my wife, that if they ever gain bodies and are "saved" on some other world that it will be by the same exact Atonement performed by the Messiah that came to this world?

I'm saying that we do not know the eternities, nor can we. Whatever extra savior there would be is entirely unknown. What is known is that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior of all that is. That this is solid, official LDS dctrine; nothing speculative.

[theplains]

According to LDS faith and worship, beyond Jesus Christ there is no Savior ...

Who was Heavenly Mother's savior?

Thanks,

Jim

[altersteve]

Who was Heavenly Mother's savior?

Thanks,

Jim

We know nothing about our Heavenly Mother except that she exists.

[ERayR]

We know nothing about our Heavenly Mother except that she exists.

Exactly

[Darren10]

Things such as "eternal regression" may make sense, it does to me, but we really do not know the eternities. I agree with altersteve and ERayR in that we only know that there is a Heavenly Mother. That's it. Speculative doctrines should not be made into central doctrines.

[Acris Venator]

We know nothing about our Heavenly Mother except that she exists.

There has actually been a ton said about her by church leaders. For instance:

James E. Talmage claimed, “It is within [man’s] power to follow in the footsteps of his celestial parents and to reach the rank and station occupied by those who have trodden that path before.” See James E. Talmage, “What Mormonism Stands For,” Deseret Evening News, January 16, 1909. This seems to coincide with Joseph Smith's statements that the Father “was once a man like us,” at least in that he “dwelt on an earth” as did Jesus Christ, from the TPJS p. 374.

So we know she was once mortal, and if so it is common sense that she likely needed a Savior. I don't think that the Christ who died on this earth was her particular savior. Theplains' question is a valid one.

If she did have a savior other than Jesus of the Bible /BOM, then we are at an understanding that strongly asserts that there has been more than one Atonement performed. Perhaps those men who enter the CK as married men with the potential to be Gods have more work to perform.

[mfbukowski]

We are beyond the ability of our language to represent what is reasonable.

What we are discussing here is what happened "before" time and eternity as we know it. If you think you can talk about what happened before time, and when, you are mistaken.

So questions about God's progression, and that of his wife are unanswerable. We don't have the language to even talk about it. I believe the savior's atonement applies to all we can know about eternity- not all that God knows about eternity.

For our purposes, the savior was THE savior of all we can know. and we need not worry about anything else, at least not now.

Anything else is literally meaningless and self-contradictory, again, seeking answers to "what happened" (those words don't make sense, since "happenings" begin at time 1 and proceed to time 2) "before" time.

How can there be a "before" time? The speculation is meaningless.

[altersteve]

There has actually been a ton said about her by church leaders.

I'm aware of that. But none of it is official doctrine.

For instance:

James E. Talmage claimed, “It is within [man’s] power to follow in the footsteps of his celestial parents and to reach the rank and station occupied by those who have trodden that path before.” See James E. Talmage, “What Mormonism Stands For,” Deseret Evening News, January 16, 1909. This seems to coincide with Joseph Smith's statements that the Father “was once a man like us,” at least in that he “dwelt on an earth” as did Jesus Christ, from the TPJS p. 374.

So we know she was once mortal, and if so it is common sense that she likely needed a Savior.

The Father was once a man in the sense that Christ was a man, according to Joseph Smith, meaning that He was not in need of a Savior. He has always been perfect and has always been God, even if He had a father and a mother. Heavenly Mother is the same. This is my belief.

[Lachoneus]

The Father was once a man in the sense that Christ was a man, according to Joseph Smith, meaning that He was not in need of a Savior.

Joseph Smith never made any such statement. Instead, he taught that "the great secret" is that God was once "as we are now."

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret" (6 HC 305).

Later in this same discourse, the Prophet does mention that The Father once lived on an earth the same as Christ live on this earth, but only after he repeats his early teaching that The Father was once like us.

"It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible" (Id.).

In other words, The Father was once like us, and this included living a mortal life on an earth, the same as Jesus lived a mortal life on this earth when he also became like us (Heb 2:17). Joseph Smith never said that this means The Father "was not in need of a Savior." That is pure speculation.

[altersteve]

Joseph Smith never made any such statement. Instead, he taught that "the great secret" is that God was once "as we are now."

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret" (6 HC 305).

Later in this same discourse, the Prophet does mention that The Father once lived on an earth the same as Christ live on this earth, but only after he repeats his early teaching that The Father was once like us.

"It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible" (Id.).

In other words, The Father was once like us, and this included living a mortal life on an earth, the same as Jesus lived a mortal life on this earth when he also became like us (Heb 2:17). Joseph Smith never said that this means The Father "was not in need of a Savior." That is pure speculation.

I believe what Joseph was saying was that the Father was once "like us" in the same way that Christ was "like us" (i.e., mortal) -- He passed through mortality "the same as Jesus Christ Himself did." It was Christ's mortality that He compared the Father's mortality to, not ours, so there must be a difference. If you disagree, that's fine.

Edited May 31, 2012 by altersteve

[Matthew J. Tandy]

If there are peoples of other worlds beyond our own, He atoned for them as well. His sacrifice was the infinite and eternal sacrifice. According to LDS faith and worship, beyond Jesus Christ there is no Savior ad there is no being exalted by the Most High to be above all that is.

I used to have a lot of quotes on the whole Savior/Saviors thing, but I lost them years ago in a hard drive crash. Suffice it to say, the most common belief currently in the church is that the Savior Jesus Christ is the Savior of all worlds of God's children. However, there is a vast array of beliefs within that, all of which an apostle or prophet has espoused at some point and all of which are acceptable as working with existing doctrine.

* The binding theme: All Mankind is saved by Jesus Christ. Christ's redemption extends beyond this earth to many other worlds.

Various Possibilities:

1) Jesus is the only atoning Savior in all of Eternity. Earth is special because of this. His atonement covers any previous beings and all future ones, wherever and whenever they may be.

1.1) God the Father is singular in his existence as such. While he experienced being a man, yet he is unique. He is the first true God, and we are his 1st generation children. Christ also, and thus the atonement will cover everyone.

1.2) God the Father, in scripture, may refer to our immediate father, and/or it may refer to the great first God of all (consider how we refer to Father Abraham or Father Adam, but because they are those who gave birth to mankind and the covenant relationships). Christ is 1st generation from that God and thus his atonement covers all.

2) Jesus' atonement covers all the children of God the Father, on whatever planet they are on. It probably does not cover children of other God's who are preceding our Father in Heaven nor any of his (the Father's) siblings.

2.1) Only one sacrifice is involved, that being Christ's.

2.2) Other Saviors may be involved on other planets. They however are enabled by the atonement of Christ, and possible vice versa. This goes with:

2.2.1) Exalted beings will be proven able to become Savior's of other worlds, and possibly their own worlds, by their actions in this life. Shades of Adam-God theory here exist, but not needed. These exalted being are exalted only because of Christ, so without Christ's redemption of mankind, there would be no future atonements on other planets. It is like a great priesthood chain. Likewise, God the Father became what he is now because he was a Savior in another world or redeemed by one. This is different than reincarnation! In reincarnation, you keep returning until you get it right. In this model, one who becomes a Savior is never just another mortal. Christ was different than us. He alone among man had the power to take his life and raise it up again. He died because he allowed himself to, not because others could make him. Thus, while part man, he was not man. In this model, Darren10 could become a Savior of another world as part of the natural progression in the eternities to being like God and comprehending as God comprehends. As a Savior, he would be fundamentally different than others on the planet. From what I can gather, this model of progression is basically Unorganized Intelligence -> Spirit -> Mortal Man -> Exalted Man -> Adam -> Savior -> God the Father (creator of Spirits, worlds without end, etc), although I have seen the Adam and Savior aspects flipped. Either way, it's not my personal belief, though if it was true I wouldn't be bothered. I find it tenable.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Matthew J. Tandy

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Let me add on by saying that trying to determine what it means to "be like God" is actually not well known. We've been promised worlds without number, eternal posterity, and a few assorted items. But we don't know how the powers are derived, at what point we'll be able to do what (Joseph said something to the effect of it would be millennia of progressing after this life before we can even finish working out our salvation, which I take to mean being purified in character). To really understand how little we understand, it's good to look at what we know about man once being a man like us. Does that simply mean he was mortal? Or does it mean he had the same exterior biology? Did he look the same exterior, but interior have a different organ position? Was he from a high gravity or a low gravity planet, thus producing shorter or taller people with denser or thinner bones? Did his body have genetic variations that countered toxic effects of certain flora and fauna on his planet? Was the brain the same size?

There's so much we don't know, a lot we can believe, and very little revealed. It's the same with the nature of Christ's atonement. For me, while I like to theorize on the valid possibilities, I am satisfied to simply say, Christ is the only Savior whom I have anything to do with in this life, and he is the son of God the Father whom I worship.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Matthew J. Tandy

[Acris Venator]

What we are discussing here is what happened "before" time and eternity as we know it. If you think you can talk about what happened before time, and when, you are mistaken.

Did God the Father marry Heavenly Mother before time? Was the war in heaven, that followed that wedding, before time? As far as I am concerned, in this mortality, yes he did, and yes it was. You can choose to be perplexed if you wish. My reckoning of time is not the Lord's, but it still happened before my spirit was born. Satan is not still dwelling with God, and neither am I. Whether I have the "ability" to talk about these ideas to your satisfaction doesn't matter to me. I am going to talk about Her. She is my mother.

For the purposes of this thread, I am simply going to assume for arguments sake that Willford Woodruff was accurate.

If Heavenly Mother was my mother, if she birthed me into a spirit whereas "before" I was merely an "intelligence", then for some period I was one with her. Is there any evidence to suggest otherwise? Then after being born as a spirit, I was eventually one with my mortal mother for about 9 months. So before I ever set foot on the earth, I was essentially a single being with two consecutive mothers.

This gives extra meaning to the Intercessory Prayer, wherein Jesus prays that we will be "one" with him and with the Father. I think we travel from our mothers to our fathers. I think that this is why the explanation of the Spirit of Elijah only references our hearts being turned to our fathers. We are already on board with our mothers. We already were/are one with them because of specific experiences. It's our fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesus, HF) that we must be bound to next.

But if the Priesthood does reflect motherhood ( and I believe that it does, in every respect) then this is why baptism is referred to as a "rebirth". This is why certain symbols correspond to the umbilical cord and breast feeding. And this is why performing symbolic ordinances is good, but not nearly enough to be commensurate with what mothers do.

Christ is the one exception among men. He sacrificed all in a way that is commensurate with what mothers do. He went to that altar and met the experience of all mothers. This is why I believe that exalted men must eventually perform what their "very Eternal Father" did... what they watched him do. They must atone for future children on future worlds.

Woodruff's words, speculative as they may have been, support the symmetry.

[selek1]

In other words, Venator will not let the complete lack of knowing what he is talking about prevent him from spinning fanciful tales of whimsy to satisfy his itching ears.

Venator- you are free to speculate to your hearts content within the echo chamber of your own conceit.

We, on the other hand, are perfectly free to shoot down your flights of fancy by pointing out that they are respective of your attempt to remake God in your image rather than anything supported by LDS thought, belief, or practice.

Edited June 1, 2012 by selek1

[Acris Venator]

Venator- you are free to speculate to your hearts content within the echo chamber of your own conceit.

Thank-you.

We, on the other hand, are perfectly free to shoot down your flights of fancy by pointing out that they are respective of your attempt to remake God in your image rather than anything supported by LDS thought, belief, or practice.

Fire away. I'm here to figure out what I believe. Surely those of you who seek to emulate Christ and claim to have his truth will love me enough (as he does) to help me through the miasma of what I see in scripture and the words of the prophets.

Right now I see symmetry between motherhood and Priesthood. Moses 6:59 seems to put the symmetry on display for all to see:

"That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the ^aspirit, which I have made, and so became of ^bdust a living soul, even so ye must be ^cborn again into the kingdom of heaven, of ^dwater, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and ^eenjoy the ^fwords of ^geternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal ^hglory;"

I am here to be corrected, Selek. You seem up to the task, so let's have it.

[Acris Venator]

the complete lack of knowing

This is a falsehood. I know that there is a Mother in Heaven, and I know that there was a war in Heaven. One was offered by prophets that I believe were true prophets, and the other is available in scripture that I believe is true.

My faith in prophets and scripture are not a "complete lack of knowing", as you say. It is faith.