Evolution And Varying Reconciliation Theories

[shalamabobbi]

Thanks mfbukowski,

I'm about to shut down the PC and close out the comcast account. I'll be moving out to your area in the next day or two. Check your mail. I'll leave my number there. I would like to meet up with you. Thanks.

[Cobalt-70]

Selective breeding (micro-evolution) can make enormous changes and develop new variations in breeds of plants and animals but they remain the same family. Horses remain horses, cats remain cats(large or small), rabbits remain rabbits no mater the shape of their ears or their size.

True, horses will never evolve into rabbits. But 90-100 million years ago, the ancestors of horses were within the same family as the ancestors of rabbits. Back then, the rabbit ancestor and the horse ancestor looked very much alike, and you could easily have imagined them mating with each other, like the lion and the tiger. Going back just a little bit further, the horse ancestor and the rabbit ancestor were the very same species.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[mfbukowski]

True, horses will never evolve into rabbits. But 90-100 million years ago, the ancestors of horses were within the same family as the ancestors of rabbits. Back then, the rabbit ancestor and the horse ancestor looked very much alike, and you could easily have imagined them mating with each other, like the lion and the tiger. Going back just a little bit further, the horse ancestor and the rabbit ancestor were the very same species.

Yeah, I remember riding them bunnies. Great fun.

[Cobalt-70]

Yeah, I remember riding them bunnies. Great fun.

Of course, you were the bunny back then, because the ancestors of rabbits and the ancestors of primates had not yet diverged.

[SamIam]

Maybe a tad more, but you still haven't told me what you think about evolution.

This is going to be a very lengthy post and I will break it into segments. Read it in its entirety or it will not come together but this has been a challenge to capture in one place the thoughts based on a multitude of quotes and scriptures that play into my perceptions of the creation and influencing factors of subsequent events. I have not included but only the minimum of quotes to express the concepts that I find compelling:

I’m not a physicist or a mathematician that might be able to render my thoughts in those languages or in a fashion that could account for the nuances of a rate of decline that I am about to posit. Nor am I familiar with any other writings, other than the scriptural sources that are the Genesis of my thoughts on the matter. If anyone else has ever put this kind of material together, I am unfamiliar with it and can only present this within the limitations of my capacity with language. I am most comfortable using the source of my creative ideology which is the scriptures.

Mine is a transitional ideology that has changed as different thoughts come to mind. I emphasize I didn’t get here in a day and I suspect some will find this preposterous. I also did not get here by thinking on evolution or creation. It is just that over time studying several other tangents things have distilled to this. I’m sure that many will rejoinder that this effort doesn’t make it obvious I was thinking at all. Still I focus more on the questions that are generated by what I can detect from scripture than what I can see in the fossil record...

To begin, I think the first main issue is we are limiting ourselves to an increment of measurement that does not take into account all of the clues that can be found in scripture – time is that increment of measurement. It’s greater emphasis and recognition of priority is the result of the fall and a temporary condition which has co-opted an eternal perspective and reduced us to a temporal perspective. Time as a paradigm focus of interest is primarily associated with measuring a series of events that mark beginnings and endings. We tend to view all historical events as moments along the linear passage of time. Evolutionary musings find themselves focused on the act of death and the record that death provides. The passages of time it claims are reasonably accounted for and will be as I proceed.

If time is not my preferred standard of measurement then what do I suggest as the standard that must be considered if we wish to properly evaluate events according to a time based temporal mentality. Doctrine and Covenants mentions that there is a law “by which all things are governed”. That law is light and interestingly it is the life of all things. Since light is the governing law that defines conditions of life then for me it makes supremely more sense to look to light as a measurement to define considerations of time. Time is subject to light. I know for me I always used to think in terms of only time as the measurement but nowadays I ponder if there are implications of adjusting our paradigm to move towards the implications of the influence of the physics of light. In other words, if we insist on using time to qualify temporal existence we should do so in light (pun unavoidable) of its relationship to the law which governs it. The most important thing to remember throughout all of this presentation is: time is subject to the influences of light.

Now from here we need to get back to the subject of creation. However, before I do I need to take one more look at a time component as mentioned in the scriptures. A couple of things are mentioned that bear greater consideration that may encourage towards a paradigm shift in thinking.

As temporal beings, as mentioned, time has taken on a priority paradigm. However, it is a false compass point for directing our observations. The tendency to subject our thinking paradigm to time as we experience it in a fallen state limits the capacity to grasp the conditions of realms in which time is not the primary paradigm but is instead based on the perceptions of the higher paradigm and subject to the physics of the higher law of light. Time is subject to these conditions and not vice versa. Not time as in the passage of time but how we would have to account for the accrual of time based measurements on the influencing factors of light and also quickening.

The Fall - Time

As time and its current magnitude of importance is a by-product of the fall from an eternal sphere, (which had truth that was independent in its sphere) to a fallen sphere, (which also has truth that is independent in its sphere) there has to be in my mind a series of calculations that could draw relationships between the physics of matter that exists in the quickened state of an eternal sphere and the physics of matter that exists in the reduced state of quickening of a fallen sphere.

I am purposefully staying away from thoughts on how dimensions might play into this as I’m not comfortable trying to wrap that around where we are going at this point but I just want to mention there is most likely an additional set of impacting calculations that can come into play.

There are three conditions that seem to me to have potential to influence dating criteria of the age of the earth and the fossil record. These are the physical influences on matter that is in transitional states:

1.) a fall in space.

2.) a fall in quickening.

3.) a fall in intensity of the pure light source of an eternal state.

Continued in post number 2

[SamIam]

Post number two

Condition One – The Fall In Space

The Sun, moon, some stars and other planets are components of the same solar system in which they were organized, while many of the stars that are visible with current technology may be members of adjacent solar systems in this galaxy. So not only is the earth going to fall but all of the components that comprise this system are going to move with it. A galaxy will have to move with us to maintain the integrity of the system of creation. In Abraham 3:14 Abraham is promised that he will be multiplied “like unto these.” These referencing verse 13 which discusses Shinehah – which is a sun, Kokob a star but which I believe references a glorified earth, Olea – which is a moon, and KoKaubeam which are stars. It is a common conclusion to think the Lord is referring to the fact that the number of his offspring will be as the number of these organized forms. That is true, however, it could also be determined to mean that his offspring will be multiplied like unto these which is to mean they will be the offspring of their parents as his children will be the offspring of Abraham as their parent.

General Law asked why the sun was called by a masculine name and the moon by a feminine one. I replied that the root of masculine is stronger, and of feminine weaker. The sun is a governing planet to certain planets, while the moon borrows her light from the sun, and is less or weaker. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols. 1932-1951], 5: 210 - 211.)

There are several places in scripture that confirm the designation of gender to various celestial orbs. D & C 88 has several but this quote originating from Joseph Smith clearly expresses this thought as a genuine designation of gender and not a symbolism of other interpretation.

This verse from Moses 7 is also significant in removing any question of the sentient capacity of these organized orbs as Enoch is observing a very powerful and moving event:

Moses 7:48

48 And it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am pained, I am weary, because of the wickedness of my children. When shall I crest, and be cleansed from the filthiness which is gone forth out of me? When will my Creator sanctify me, that I may rest, and righteousness for a season abide upon my face?

49 And when Enoch heard the earth mourn, he wept, and cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, wilt thou not have compassion upon the earth? Wilt thou not bless the children of Noah?

Finally, this quote following basically combines all of the elements of the previous examples.

Let me open the eyes of your understanding. There has never been a time when the creations of worlds commenced. They are from eternity to eternity in their creations and redemption. After they are organized they experience the good and the evil, the light and the dark, the bitter and the sweet as you and I do. There never was a time when there were not worlds in existence as this world is, and they pass through similar changes in abiding their creation preparatory to exaltation. Worlds have always been in progress, and eternally will be. (Brigham Young, "For This Is Life Eternal," Brigham Young Addresses, edited by Elden Watson, 2:230.)

It seems to me that when we were first created, as described in the various creation dramas, the world was in closer proximity to these perfected heavenly components. The perfected sun was complimented by a newly organized lesser sun and both provided light. I actually have reason to believe that there were at least 12 suns that were separated out of the primary sun to create 12 systems that form a quorum in the creation. The parent sun is possibly referenced in Abraham 3:13 as Shinehah. In a falling state, each of these systems must leave the protective environs of their parents and begin the process of their own progress.

Benjamin F. Johnson paraphrasing Joseph Smith:

He was the first in this age to teach "substantialism", the eternity of matter, that no part or particle of the great universe could become annihilated or destroyed; that light and life and spirit were one; that all light and heat are the "Glory of God", which is his power, that fills the "immensity of space", and is the life of all things, and permeates with latent life, and heat, every particle of which all worlds are composed; that light or spirit, and matter, are the two first great primary principles of the universe, or of Being; that they are self-existent, co-existent, indestructible, and eternal, and from these two elements both our spirits and our bodies were formulated, and he gave us to understand that there were twelve kingdoms, or planets, revolving around our solar system, to which the Lord gave an equal division of His time or ministry and that now was His time to again visit the earth. He taught that all systems of worlds were in revolution, the lesser around the greater. (Benjamin F. Johnson, Letter to George F. Gibbs, 1903)

Further insight on this quote is found by considering D & C 88:61-67.

This process of movement is what constitutes the physical fall or process of moving from the initial location.

If matter was existing in a eternal state and then was changed to matter that had ceased to be able to tolerate the quality of the light source, if that matter was to be preserved in a living state, it would need to be moved from its proximity to the pure renewing light source to a distance where a diffused lesser light source could sustain the life giving forces temporarily without destroying them by burning them out. This is one facet of the fall; physically moving from one location to another at safe distance from excessive exposure to the effects of perfected light. This distance is suitable to sustain a process of a slow death by providing a diffused light to prevent a total immediate absence of light which would be instant physical death.

This physical fall provides the conditions for the difference in time frames that we refer to commonly as a day in the life of the Lord is equal to a thousand years of man. It can easily contribute to evidences of mass die offs of species from cataclysmic conditions such as Ice, water, fire and any other condition that I have considered. Still, remember: time is subject to the influences of light.

Continued in Post number 3

Edited April 27, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

Post number 3

Condition 2- Fall in Quickening

The second thing is the D & C reference to the concept of quickening. I, as many, have read several documents explaining string theory. I’m not bright enough to catch much but a superficial understanding but it always makes me think of quickening.

I have felt that the term quickening has at least one element of meaning that is straight across interpretation. A quickened object operates under rules of existence that in some fashion at least embraces a concept of operating in a faster state. In theory, traceable changes that occur in an eternal state could be accounted for in a fallen state and time paradigm only if a formula was known that embraced two factors of conversion. It has to account for its faster state of being, maybe we can call that phase or something, and to account for the relationship of the change that occurs relative to the conditions of condensed pure light of a glorified state versus the degraded conditions of a diluted light that is required to prevent the destruction of matter in a fallen state.

(In my document I have a traditional image of a exponential rate of decay graph. Very sharp drop for first two thousand years. It tapers sharply at the flood and then only marginally changes to our current time of existance. I don't have it stored anywhere that I can link to for inclusion here)

Now this next part is the crux of the entire issue. Earlier I floated a hypothetical of traceable changes in a eternal state. That is not a given in that an eternal state is a state of constant renewal as it is quickened to the fullness of the rate of an eternal kingdom and it is bathed in a pure unadulterated light / life source. The relationship of its state of quickening and the quality of the light source intrinsically create the condition of eternal. Somehow also, perhaps for another day’s discussion members of a celestial level in the highest degree become self sustaining light sources.

If matter was in a state that it could perish, which necessitated a fall away from it former location that constitutes one aspect of the fall. The second aspect is this piece of a fall in quickening and is most significant and is the key to the measurements of time that depart from the scriptural 7 creative cycles and become the periods of billions of years. Each from the perspective of their measurement is correct and valid within margins of error from the temporal perspectives. However, to grasp this we must remember that time is subject to the influences of light.

The mathematics of entropy could possibly design a formula that could map the exponential rate of decay from a perfected sphere falling to a lower state of an imperfect sphere. In my mind at this time, based on the scriptural record it would have to generate a steep falling curve that drops sharply to a point that tapers off rapidly. The point of the turn out for my mind is the flood. This is based partly on the physical calamity itself and also on the immediate shortening of the potential life spans of men. The potential length of a lifetime is predicated upon the state of quickening the matter is in at conception. Thus we see a lifespan range of potentially 900 plus years before the flood to a brief phase of life spans in the 500 range until the days of Peleg when they drop to the 200 or less range. After the Exodus it finally reaches a tapering off point consistent with modern age ranges which seems mostly to have remained a constant. It should be noted that potential life span of individuals is not life expectancy rate of populations and the variables that are reflected in such calculations.

Each of the conditions noted in these transition phases can be the result of settling in conditions of a world that has achieved a place far enough away from the origin point and has begun to settle into a less influenced pattern of revolution around its single sun. This is as opposed to any effecting factors from various points encountered in the fall where gravitational encounters from other influences could cause magnetic shifts, weather pattern shifts etc. As these settling conditions each are less dramatic than the previous the causal clues reduce in magnitude. From initial mass die offs, and extremes in weather conditions culminating in the flood where a major change in the curve is realized. In the Days of Peleg the continental shifting is of lesser catastrophe but massively significant. To finally the lesser plagues or events that occurred to gain the freedom for the children of Israel as a near complete settling in occurred. Then continued effects have manifest from time to time from solar influences and others that from time to time, such as at Christ’s death have had great impact until our not distant future of plagues and calamities. So many variables can trigger such events in addition to a falling state that I have not considered any means of specificity of what types of variables might be involved. There is the obvious sun activity but easily many more variables exist.

Within the primary rate of decay curve would be the same types of variable considerations that we might consider even for life span distinctions now. Nutrient intake, exposure to harmful substances, aggression from predators of any specie etc would be existing considerations that would contribute to wide variations in realized life spans versus potential life spans.

This fall in quickening is the stage that provides for an ability to have a shorter period of time provide adequate sense of relative length so that man has the sense of duration of existence. However, it seems to me that it is a relationship factor between all three fall conditions and so will be explored in a separate section.

Continued in post number 4

Edited April 27, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

Post Number 4

Condition 3-Fall in density and purity of the Light source

This section on the light source is one of the most challenging for me to grasp but it plays heavily into my thoughts for the processes that would create conditions that would measure in billions of years though occurring in a much shorter time frame. I can’t perceive of the math but it is a relationship against the declining rate of quickening that seems to me to create the sliding scale of conditions that could be a reasonable explanation.

I have several pages of research that I glued into my scriptures on several a few years ago that deals with principles of light. I probably found this information on a Viewzone website at this link http://www.viewzone.com/dnax.html. At least it is the same information I carry with me. It pertains to some research by Fritz-Albert Popp and his research on ultraviolet light. Through some of his experiments he finally makes the profound statement, “We now know today, that man is essentially a being of light.” This confirming statement of scientific origin only confirms the restored gospel but points to a couple of possibilities.

First we are internally producing a limited amount of light that emits from our persons. It is of exceeding low level and requires a photo multiplier to measure. Essentially all living entities produce some degree of light.

Further work on DNA and cells has revealed how cellular processes are switched on by photons. As well this research has lead to therapies called biophoton therapy that provokes positive reactions by bombarding the skin’s photoreceptors with increased levels of light to stimulate pain remission and healing.

There are several other aspects that relate to this research on light but what is clear is that the simple process of regulating type and quantity of light has remarkably significant impact on living organisms, not only regenerative but also degenerative in effect.

It is safe to posit based on the scriptural record of the creation and the fall that anything created in a Eternal state is created under the physical laws that govern beings of light and an eternal existence is an element of that state.

However, as discussed, if the process of a fall is initiated then the implications are that an energy source that is suitable for sustaining pure matter would become progressively more toxic to falling matter, This requires a graduated distancing and reduction of light. Patterns of this state are manifest in concepts where the more wicked of a people are not able to be protected by the spirit on account of their impure state should they come into the presence of God. However those who claim sufficient purity can be shielded by the spirit from the destructive effects of the purified light of self sustaining light sources such as God the Father and his Son. Of course when the Son was tabernacled his spiritual brilliance was muted for the nature of the gross matter comprising his `body. Moses illustrates some interesting aspects when he returns from Sinai and the people ask him to cover his face for the residual brilliance of his being in the presence of God shielded by the Holy Ghost.

This process of falling away from the purity of light in which we were created could account for death spreading across the globe to all species independent of the fact that they themselves did not partake of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. There may be some creatures that we show in fossil remnants that cannot tolerate levels of light below a certain threshold. An anomaly is manifest on the earth where the factors resulting from greater light exposure of tropical climates support life forms that are larger in size than related life forms in areas that do not have those levels of exposure: the cockroaches in Thailand where monsters compared to the ones in Utah. The massive size of many of the creations of the fossil record is indicative of a warmer environment. If certain species were found pre-fall that thrived in those light conditions of purity then it is possible that those conditions diminishing rapidly would contribute to mass die offs quite readily.

Continued on post number 5

[SamIam]

Post number 5

Combined influences

This brings me to what I consider the most important aspect of how we determine the age of the earth and or fossilized material. Carbon 14 data and radiometric dating as well rely on measuring processes that are in one way or another relative to influencing factors of light. When we only consider the physical relocation of the solar system without considering upon the changing sliding scale of bombarding light emissions we fail to consider the aspect of the fall that has the most influence on matter according to the methodologies we use to evaluate age. This is just surface development but my thoughts are that in the initial moments of the fall, the earth and all of its life forms would begin a process of rapid decline in the ability to tolerate some aspects of eternal pure light. So while this falling away from the abundance of brilliantly pure light is taking place an inverse relationship is occurring.

At the very top of the rate of decline physical movement is initiated, distance is being achieved as we pull away and dilution of the light is occurring as well.

However, at this juncture the light interactions with matter that is degrading to a lower quickened state are very intense. The matter is only beginning to decline and so can tolerate greater exposure however the quickened rate of existence is going to produce chemical and or magnetic reactions that occur closer to the range of Gods time scale than our current scale. However it is not only the length of time involved in the process as also the intensity of the purity of the light. So that not only are the formulas that would be needed to calculate this be dependent on a 1 day = 1000 years but would also have to consider the exponentially higher rate of bombardment of the intensity of the light. As current measurements only measure the rate of decay of matter in a nonliving state it is not an adequate measurement for determining the effects of light and other fall forces on living matter.

This would alter the ratio significantly if the markers we measure in our current stable rate of exchange based on being in the bottom tapered off point of the decline. We are not only calculating the time passage difference of 1 day = 1000 years but we would also have to account for the quantity of time in our current state that it would take to react according to the extreme levels of light exposure we would have received during the first stages of the fall. What would initially look like increases in parts of thousands would actually, considering all variables, become ratios in parts of 100,000s of thousands or perhaps even millions. Whatever the actual ratio is would potentially account for measurements in terms of billions of years because it would literally take billions of years at our current rate of quickening and light exposure to accomplish the same levels of decay that would be accomplished in a early falling state of exponentially higher levels of light. One more time we must recall that time is subject to the influences of light.

The accelerated rates of response of corrupted dead matter in the very earliest point of the curve if measured according to the physics of our current state would find fossils of dinosaurs that might show exceptionally older than the 1 day 1000 years ratios permit. Also since all of our methods only can detect changes in non-living matter we are not seeing reactions to the changes of living things but only the changes in the markers that we measure in non-living entities. Is it not possible then that if one was to measure the rate of changes that occurred in an earlier quickened phase against the conditions and physics of a latter slower phase of quickening that the physical markers reflecting the passage of time in the earlier phase would read as markers of much longer duration for the nature of the required time lapse to achieve the same level of change in a slower phase?

Thus, for accurate understandings of the measurement the indicators illustrating the rate of change must be converted by some formula into a comparable relationship that considers the effects of the state of quickening on the changes in the matter that actually took place in a quicker phase as compared to the passage of time required to effect the same level of change in the matter while in the phase of the slower period of measurement. This calculation would have to be on a sliding scale to accommodate the continuing effects of a falling mass of matter to a final resting place where the conditions of the tapered off point in the exponential rate of decay would reflect in the final state. These calculations would be designed to measure the amplitude of the light according to the sliding scale of change of the exponential rate of decay of the light intensity as it moves further away..

I can also imagine that a quickened state of living conditions might support population increases in short periods of time that subsequently died earlier enough to experience massive rates of decay from the exponentially greater impact upon dead corrupted matter of the light intensities of the earliest years after the fall had been initiated. In our current slower state the rates of decay of dead matter, would still take substantially longer to reach the same levels of decay that the markers that are measured indicate.

Again as life forms in higher quickened states it seems you could have time in the first few hundred years of the fall that could reproduce and expand populations while preparing to die from continued climatic changes or light changes from the shifts and movements of a physical relocation.

Furthermore most of what I know of is in relationship to the influences of UV light while in the earlier stages the various components of light and the density of those components of light may now be diffused to such a degree that we might not recognize them as factors for consideration.

Most of this has stayed within a science framework with only a few references to spiritual influences. However, there are a couple of scientifically unacceptable criteria that cannot be denied in my opinion by those who have experience in the gospel. One is the effect of the light augmenting benefits of the Holy Ghost, not only by those that possess it by also by its increasing proximity to all peoples on the globe. It is difficult to ignore that there never has been a time of such unprecedented advancements in knowledge and technology as there has been since 1830. The world may deny the reality but I cannot. The second is tandem with the Holy Ghost and that is the presence of the Priesthood and it subsequent benefit of increasing the knowledge of true principles. Another is the initial benefits of spreading the truth of the gospel and the transition and polarizations that are occurring as the rejection of that light is increased by rebellion. This is in light of the religious science of the light augmenting effects of truth which is light and subsequent polarizations are the result of choosing darkness over light. I believe these have physical impact on organisms.

As I look back over Joseph Fielding Smith’s list of conflicts of evolutionary theory if this were to hold up it resolves all of them, as well as my own personal misgivings of the current theories.

This concept resolves many issues:

1.) All creatures reproduce after their own kind vs evolution from lower levels to higher levels.

2.) Adam was the first death by being the first spiritual death vs. the claim that death was occurring before Adam.

3.) Adam is the first flesh by virtue of the first creation to fall out of an eternal status vs long line of flesh clothed creatures.

4.) Age of the earth from 13000 years or 7 creative cycles plus years since fall to billions of years are both compatible. Perspective driven.

5.) Ice Ages, floods, life spans of man all accounted for.

6.) All species that resemble man are counted as present during the creation. As populations become extinct in a pattern that appears to supports conclusions of progressive development of a species this is in actualityan act of interpreting markers in a fashion that matches a preconceived conclusion.

7.) Issues in strata location of fossilized material have sufficient evidences to call into question the value of such as a consistent perspective of merit. See http://www.examiner....diometric-dates. Also Ediacaran organisms have to be explained out and other anomalies.

8.) Totally resolves the statistical improbability of calculable rates of change in genetic material to account for species diversity.

9.) Resolves conflicts with dinosaurs and men potentially dwelling together as is alleged from certain controversial fossilized footprint finds.

10.) Law of Biogenesis preserved.

11.) The Second Law of Thermodynamics is not conflicted with.

12.) Cambrian Explosion resolved.

13.) The Law of Entropy remains intact and more accurately reflects conditions that would be expected from a condition called a fall.

This is it for now I am going to redo this with the integration of the scriptures and quotes that have caused me to wonder about these things in this fashion. But for now this will have to do. Please suggest areas of improbability as I would like to ponder upon those things to see if they can’t be reconciled in some fashion. I’m sure that this is inadequate in many ways which I do not understand and could be greatly improved upon with others inputs. So feel free… This is the final post of this series.

Edited April 27, 2012 by SamIam

[thesometimesaint]

Samlam:

No C-14 dating is not dependent on the amount of light. It is dependent on the amount C-14 ingested by way of eating and respiration. Dead plants and animals do neither so the relative amounts of C-14 decline with age. For formally living things older than about 40,000 years there isn't enough C-14 to accurately measure so other means are used, likely Potassium-Argon dating, and it too is not dependent on the amount of light.

[SamIam]

Samlam:

No C-14 dating is not dependent on the amount of light. It is dependent on the amount C-14 ingested by way of eating and respiration. Dead plants and animals do neither so the relative amounts of C-14 decline with age. For formally living things older than about 40,000 years there isn't enough C-14 to accurately measure so other means are used, likely Potassium-Argon dating, and it too is not dependent on the amount of light.

Carbon 14 data and radiometric dating as well rely on measuring processes that are in one way or another relative to influencing factors of light.

This is my statement from the material I posted. It is sufficient in what it says to validate the truth that light is the LAW by which all things a governed.

Radiometric dating processes in simplest form are an attempt to measure the amount of light an object has lost over a period of time. Therefore light is a consideration in this method and others that man uses to date things. Its limitations are as you state. However that has not prevented scientists from creating theoretical models based on their evaluations of what they believe they understand about radioactive decay.

A couple of things you might consider:

The energy input from cosmic rays is tiny—about one-billionth of the solar irradiance, or roughly the same as that of starlight.

However, as the dominant source of penetrating ionizing particle radiation, they have a profound effect on many atmospheric processes. They generate, for example, light radioisotopes such as 14C and 10Be by interactions with air nuclei, which provides the basis for carbon dating as well as reconstructing past changes of cosmic ray intensity. (As downloaded from http://www.uwe-merck...ter/carslaw.pdf )

The principle is identical for other forms of radioactive decay measuring techniques including potassium – argon. They also are measuring light. I do not say they are accurate or correct methods for measuring light and my inclusion of the definitions of either of these does not constitute my endorsement of them beyond that which is known.

The potassium-argon method of dating artifacts and sites, like radiocarbon dating, relies on measuring radioactive emissions. Basically, Potassium-40 decays to Argon-40 at a known rate. The Potassium-Argon method is useful for sites dated between 50,000 and 2 billion years ago. It's just about the best method to date for very very old sites, and was first used in an archaeological context at Olduvai Gorge. (http://archaeology.a...assiumargon.htm)

If you defer to the gospel as the priority for you to prove truth you will not find yourself so subconsciously inclined to ignore it as a standard of truth. This is genuinely one of those conditions that cause many LDS to be part time saints. Instead you have adopted a position that science is the sole truth and the gospel fails when it disagrees. However, while science is very valuable, is often makes assumptions where many issues lie. The make the best assumptions they can but they are based on the precise model which we as LDS know to be incorrect based on the scriptural record. If you believe…

Assumption #1

For approximate analysis it is assumed that the cosmic ray flux is constant over long periods of time; thus carbon-14 is produced at a constant rate and the proportion of radioactive to non-radioactive carbon is constant: ca. 1 part per trillion (600 billion atoms/mole).

My use of the scriptural record which is, at least to me, a true record, gives reason to question the above assumption...and I do.

7 primary assumptions concerning Carbon dating:

• The balance between Carbon-14 production and decay has always been the same;
  
• The rate of Carbon-14 decay has not altered;
  
• Organic material tested has not been contaminated by Carbon-14 since its death;
  
• Earth's magnetic field intensity has not changed;
  
• There have only been small variations in ocean depths;
  
• Ocean temperature changes have only been minor; and
  
• Cosmic ray intensity has not changed.
  

as retrieved from

http://unmaskingevol.../1-carbon14.htm

Several on this list are directly related to influences of light and several can be attributed to possibly being secondary results of influences of light.

Another assumption:

According to the Big Bang theory, stable isotopes of the lightest five elements (H, He, and traces of Li, Be, and B) were produced very shortly after the emergence of the universe, in a process called Big Bang nucleosynthesis. These lightest stable nuclides (including deuterium) survive to today, but any radioactive isotopes of the light elements produced in the Big Bang (such as tritium) have long since decayed. (http://en.wikipedia....dioactive_decay)

Note, however, that none of this opposes the essence of my concepts. Since carbon 14 is created by cosmic rays in the upper atmosphere, the exponential rate of decay curve I posit and the strength of the light, or cosmic ray influence which would be realized immediately after the fall would distort even the accepted measurements of 30,000 – 40,000 years. Still that is not to say that from one perspective these measurements cannot be accepted as correct. Under the current physics as suggested by us being on the tapered edge of an exponential rate of decline curve, it would take the lengths of time measured to actually achieve the decay rates determined by materials younger than the 40,000 year threshold. I also may need to remind you that part of the decay rate is going to be tied to the state of quickening of the matter involved.

Reread my material and place the Gospel first as the standard and you'll see more clearly.

Thank you for pointing this question out as I think it will be a common observation from those who come from a the gospel is only as true as science confirms position. I will amend my document.

Edited April 27, 2012 by SamIam

[mfbukowski]

The most important thing to remember throughout all of this presentation is: time is subject to the influences of light.

A very interesting idea.

[thesometimesaint]

Radioactivity has nothing to do with light. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactivity

[mfbukowski]

This physical fall provides the conditions for the difference in time frames that we refer to commonly as a day in the life of the Lord is equal to a thousand years of man. It can easily contribute to evidences of mass die offs of species from cataclysmic conditions such as Ice, water, fire and any other condition that I have considered. Still, remember: time is subject to the influences of light.

Ok, no immaterial matter, matter and energy are interchangeable.

[mfbukowski]

Radioactivity has nothing to do with light. http://en.wikipedia....i/Radioactivity

Maybe that is too specific. Did he mention radioactivity? This is where it would help if you quoted an actual passage, because I don't even know what you are commenting on.

Just sayin'!

[Calm]

Radiometric measures use radioactivity.

It seems to me that Samlam is equating "light" with "electromagnetic energy", which is not really correct.

[mfbukowski]

Samlam

Fascinating metaphor and I really like it.

It might or might not eventually be proven scientifically, but it is a logical system of belief based on your understanding and is quite ingenious, I think.

You have come up with a very interesting idea! You have done what we all must do- come up with a way of constructing our realities according to our experience understanding and the vocabularies available to us, and I salute you!

[mfbukowski]

Radiometric measures use radioactivity.

It seems to me that Samlam is equating "light" with "electromagnetic energy", which is not really correct.

I think it works better poetically to call it "light" even if what he means is "electromagnetic energy". "Light" works better with the scriptures I think

"Insofar as it is translated correctly"!

[thesometimesaint]

mfbukowki:

Here's what he said.

Radiometric dating processes in simplest form are an attempt to measure the amount of light an object has lost over a period of time. Therefore light is a consideration in this method and others that man uses to date things. Its limitations are as you state. However that has not prevented scientists from creating theoretical models based on their evaluations of what they believe they understand about radioactive decay.

Thus my response. Light has nothing to do with radioactivity, and the Link.

[mfbukowski]

mfbukowki:

Here's what he said.

Radiometric dating processes in simplest form are an attempt to measure the amount of light an object has lost over a period of time. Therefore light is a consideration in this method and others that man uses to date things. Its limitations are as you state. However that has not prevented scientists from creating theoretical models based on their evaluations of what they believe they understand about radioactive decay.

Thus my response. Light has nothing to do with radioactivity, and the Link.

Ok thanks, but it's a metaphor.

[ERayR]

Ok thanks, but it's a metaphor.

I like it too.

[SamIam]

Radioactivity has nothing to do with light. http://en.wikipedia....i/Radioactivity

You are not trying to understand the principles outlined. This is the type of behaviors that I see in you that cause me to see you as petulant and/or obstinate. This was a massive effort to pull together principles that find their origin in scriptural sources and try to make them relate to principles of science while retaining their scriptural implications. If I failed to quite get the terminologies put together just right for your understanding then discount my broad brush strokes. My real point is to push the fact that emanations from a sun are capable of producing the effects you refuse to see. If I fail in the exactness of my explanation for my inability to cross all of the I's and dot the T's ( I know you are going to kill yourself trying to get to your keyboard before you finish reading this to tell me I meant to say dot my i's and cross my t's but the point is you can see the point that I am trying to make even though I should have said it better) The point is the effects you are arguing about are all potentially caused by emissions from a sun. Now, if I, for all of your equivocating, have missed entirely that premise then by all means show me where and how and I can revisit my proverbial blackboard and try again. The point is that the Law of Light by which all things are governed (D&C 88) may not contain all of the nuances and or details of description that you want to critique but take that up with the Lord. My use of the term light as this verse uses the terms light is inclusive of everything that God intended in this set of verses:

Doctrine and Covenants 88:

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

If you will notice the light that God is referencing is the light of Christ and that it it proceeds forth from the presence of God. It is in the Sun and the moon and the stars. That light is also in the earth but we are going to have to agree that there must be some qualitative and or quantitative difference between the light in the earth and that which is in the Sun. If you find some interpretation of these verses that you can develop that flat out says that that I am wrong for expecting that God knows what he intends by the term light, and that I am wrong for claiming that the source of the factors which I am claiming would be influencing factors in my document might not be included in this definition of light as God uses it, then let me know.

All of the forces I am references as influencing factors are found in that light of the Sun as it impacts the earth. You can overlook everything I sent earlier on how that light is critically involved in the radioactive components that men measure but that would illustrate to me that your objective is not to at least even make a weak attempt at understanding what I am stating but is instead some other.

If it helps below are a few more references to the things that are being brought up concerning my use of the scriptural implications of the word light. I may not be getting it precisely correct from each individual nuance of expectation but I am within tolerances…Look beyond all of the fussing about how I dot my T’s and there is some good material for you to ponder. And you will have to ponder it if you even hope to capture the ideas I present.

Visible light

Light, or visible light, is a very narrow range of electromagnetic radiation of a wavelength that is visible to the human eye (about 400–700 nm), or up to 380–750 nm.

[1]

More broadly, physicists refer to light as electromagnetic samuelradiation of all wavelengths, whether visible or not. (

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation

)

Visible light

(commonly referred to simply as

light

) is

electromagnetic radiation

that is

visible

to the

human eye

, and is responsible for the sense of

sight

.

[1]

Visible light has

wavelength

in a range from about 380

nanometres

to about 740 nm. The visible light range is located between the invisible

infrared

, which is found at longer wavelengths and the invisible

ultraviolet

, which is found at shorter wavelengths. (

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light

)

Generally, Electromagnetic radiation (the designation 'radiation' excludes static electric and magnetic and

near fields

) is classified by wavelength into

radio

,

microwave

,

infrared

, the

visible region

we perceive as light,

ultraviolet

,

X-rays

and

gamma rays

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation

There are

many sources of light

. The most common light sources are thermal: a body at a given

temperature

emits a characteristic spectrum of

black-body

radiation. Examples include

sunlight

(the radiation emitted by the

chromosphere

of the

Sun

at around 6,000

Kelvin

peaks in the visible region of the electromagnetic spectrum when plotted in wavelength units

[6]

and roughly 40% of sunlight is visible)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light

Edited April 27, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

Ok thanks, but it's a metaphor.

Hallelujah!!!! Someone is trying to get the point. You are beautiful! wonderful! I'm going to name my 7th child after you.

bubba bukowski Lenox what a ring it has...

[mfbukowski]

The point is that the Law of Light by which all things are governed (D&C 88) may not contain all of the nuances and or details of description that you want to critique but take that up with the Lord. My use of the term light as this verse uses the terms light is inclusive of everything that God intended in this set of verses:

Uh, it's a nice metaphor but let's not get carried away, Mr Prophet. My suggestion is to put the words "my understanding" or "my interpretation" in there somewhere.

Others see it differently and are not "wrong" to do so.

[mfbukowski]

Hallelujah!!!! Someone is trying to get the point. You are beautiful! wonderful! I'm going to name my 7th child after you.

bubba bukowski Lenox what a ring it has...

OOPS- even after that last post??