Evolution And Varying Reconciliation Theories

[cdowis]

most would agree that Joseph Smith's behavior would be incompatible with the founding of a Christian religion in the 19th century that could in any way be characterized as "true" (or perhaps even as Christian).

I think someone has already asked this, so consider this a CFR on your accusation in the previous post.

Any fool can make wild accusations and assertions, and most agree that you certainly are not one. We just want you to prove it.

CFR.

Edited May 9, 2012 by cdowis

[altersteve]

Depends on if the two are mutually exclusive. In terms of the sky, cloudy and blue can describe the same sky condition. In terms of religion, most would agree that Joseph Smith's behavior would be incompatible with the founding of a Christian religion in the 19th century that could in any way be characterized as "true" (or perhaps even as Christian).

That doesn't answer the question, and you also failed to answer my previous request for you to provide evidence that Joseph Smith slept with anyone other than Emma. CFR on that, please.

[bcuzbcuz]

All my kids(3 boys) are grown and have families of their own, and am currently raising my grandnephew. Worked my career in the bizz of child and teen mental health issues.

My wife and I always gave our kids as much freedom/responsibility as they could handle. They are well adjusted men. the oldest turns 40 next year. Gosh how time flies, I CAN'T be that old. Now I get to spoil my grandkids rotten and send them home to their parents.

Both sets of our parents are dead now, and have buried one granddaughter who died just a few days before she was to be born.

I expect kids, and teens to constantly press for new freedoms,responsibiliies, and to decide for themselves what it is they do. i would call myself a failure as a parent, or there was something seriously wrong with my child, if they didn't. My kids(now grown men), and Grandnephew know that I'm always available for them to talk to, and are polite enough to at least listen when we do.

I always enjoy reading your responses. Thank you.

My oldest turns 42 this year, so I feel a kinship in experience and also with the era we grew up in. My kids are only half way as polite, I fear. They are only partially listening because they are preparing counter arguments, regardless whether we talk politics, religion or parenting.

[bu11fr0g]

Mariner off to old tricks. He certainly is not the one to determine most or what true should be like.

[Mariner]

I think someone has already asked this, so consider this a CFR on your accusation in the previous post.

Any fool can make wild accusations and assertions, and most agree that you certainly are not one. We just want you to prove it.

CFR.

Well, to start with, there is his Sermon of Sunday, May 26 1844, where Joseph Smith stated the following:

"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one."

(History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412)

When this recorded public statement is contrasted with the records of the LDS Church concerning the number of wives that Joseph Smith had at the time he delivered this sermon (at least 30 according to www.familysearch.org) it does not cast him in a positive light.

I cannot recall that any other founder of a Christian Church in the last 200 years as having more than one wife (at any given time) and misrepresenting this fact to his followers.

(This is probably about as far as I can go in terms of a CFR without violating board rules. Please note that facts cited are from Church approved publications.)

Edited May 10, 2012 by Mariner

[altersteve]

Well, to start with, there is his Sermon of Sunday, May 26 1844, where Joseph Smith stated the following:

(History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412)

When this recorded public statement is contrasted with the records of the LDS Church concerning the number of wives that Joseph Smith had at the time he delivered this sermon (at least 30 according to www.familysearch.org) it does not cast him in a positive light.

I cannot recall that any other founder of a Christian Church in the last 200 years as having more than one wife (at any given time) and misrepresenting this fact to his followers.

(This is probably about as far as I can go in terms of a CFR without violating board rules. Please note that facts cited are from Church approved publications.)

My opinion is that Joseph (in his own mind) had only one wife: Emma. He never considered himself to be legally "married" to anyone else, only "sealed" in a religious ceremony. When he mentioned his wife, he was talking about Emma, period. When he denied having other wives, he was (in his mind) telling the truth. Again, just my opinion and my interpretation of the information available to me.

Now, CFR, once again, that Joseph slept with other women. Your claim that answering that would violate board rules seems like a cop-out to me. If you can't (or won't) answer the CFR, then please retract your statement.

Edited May 11, 2012 by altersteve

[Mariner]

My opinion is that Joseph (in his own mind) had only one wife: Emma. He never considered himself to be legally "married" to anyone else, only "sealed" in a religious ceremony. When he mentioned his wife, he was talking about Emma, period. When he denied having other wives, he was (in his mind) telling the truth. Again, just my opinion and my interpretation of the information available to me.

Now, CFR, once again, that Joseph slept with other women. Your claim that answering that would violate board rules seems like a cop-out to me. If you can't (or won't) answer the CFR, then please retract your statement.

Whether you accept these references or not, they are evidence that Joseph had sexual relations with his wives that is at least as strong as the testimony of the three witnesses.

1. Joseph Smith's secretary William Clayton recorded a visit to young Almera Johnson on May 16, 1843:

"Prest. Joseph and I went to B.F. Johnsons to sleep. " Johnson himself later noted that on this visit Smith stayed with Almera "as man and wife" and "occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the previous month he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge as his wife." Almera Johnson also confirmed her secret marriage to Joseph Smith: "I lived with the prophet Joseph as his wife and he visited me at the home of my brother Benjamin F."

(Zimmerman, I Knew the Prophets, 44. See also "The Origin of Plural Marriage, Joseph F. Smith, Jr., Deseret News Press, page 70-71.)

2. Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. (Temple Lot case (complete transcript), 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)

3. William Clayton also records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. He reports that Emma was devastated.
William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106)

Edited May 11, 2012 by Mariner

[altersteve]

Whether you accept these references or not, they are evidence that Joseph had sexual relations with his wives that is at least as strong as the testimony of the three witnesses.

1. Joseph Smith's secretary William Clayton recorded a visit to young Almera Johnson on May 16, 1843: (Zimmerman, I Knew the Prophets, 44. See also "The Origin of Plural Marriage, Joseph F. Smith, Jr., Deseret News Press, page 70-71.)

2. Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. (Temple Lot case (complete transcript), 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)

3. William Clayton also records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. He reports that Emma was devastated.
William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106)

Your first and third references are second hand accounts, which are hardly as strong as the testimony of the Three Witnesses. With the Three Witnesses, you have three people all reporting the exact same thing, signing it, and maintaining that testimony for the rest of their lives. I don't see this with any of your three examples here.

As for your second reference, the fact that a Google search of it provides many results which say the exact same thing you wrote here makes me doubt the reliability of your source for #2. No legitimate historical sources come up. But I'm no historian so if there's another person here who can address what Mariner has claimed better than I can, feel free. But since said Google search tells me that you simply copied and pasted your entire post from one of several anti-Mormon websites which all have the exact same wording as yours, and which I, unfortunately, cannot link to on this board, I have reason to doubt your knowledge in this area. (And it looks like you copied it without actually checking the sources, apparently deciding that if it's critical of Joseph Smith then it must be true.)

That's pretty sloppy research, Mariner.

And by the way, one would think that with sexual relations with other women, there would be evidence of children, which there isn't.

Edited May 11, 2012 by altersteve

[cdowis]

Mariner, as I remember, the accusation was that JS had relations with the wives of men who were on a mission for the church. Are you making that claim, and have you provided proof of that claim?

[thesometimesaint]

altersteve:

You don't understand. If it's from an Anti-Mormon site it is automatically true, and if it is from a Mormon friendly site it is automatically false.

Edited May 11, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Mariner]

Mariner, as I remember, the accusation was that JS had relations with the wives of men who were on a mission for the church. Are you making that claim, and have you provided proof of that claim?

Look guys, we can do this all day. I could mention the first hand testimony of an individual who claimed to be a child of Joseph Smith through one of his plural wives. I could mention that Dr. Bennett, a close associate of Joseph Smith was accused by Hyrum Smith of performing abortions to eliminate the outcomes of the illicit relations of Mormon polygamists with females. I could mention an article in the SL Tribune in 1886 which includes the following text:

"Mrs. [sarah Pratt].: "You hear often that Joseph had no polygamous offspring. The reason of this is very simple. Abortion was practiced on a large scale in Nauvoo. Dr. John C. Bennett, the evil genius of Joseph, brought this abomination into a scientific system. He showed to my husband and me the instruments with which he used to * operate for Joseph. ' There was a house in Nauvoo, 'right across the flat,' about a mile and a-half from the town, a kind of hospital. They sent the women there, when they showed signs of celestial consequences. Abortion was practiced regularly in this house."

I could continue to post these from a myriad of contemporary published sources and you would simply find some reason to deny or discredit them.

So, I am going to leave it here. What you need to realize is that this is the view that anyone who looks for information about Joseph Smith on the internet will eventually come up with. if they have not been conditioned from youth to reflexively dismiss anything negative about Joseph Smith that they encounter, then the sheer weight of evidence, including that LDS Church sanctioned sources, would lead one to believe that Joseph Smith indeed had sexual relations with his wives, just as the latter day polygamist prophet, Warren Jeffs, had sexual relations with his wives.

The weight of evidence and explanatory power of the assertion that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his plural wives is much greater than the weight of evidence or explanatory power of the assertions of the three witnesses.

IMHO your persistent questioning along this line has caused enough damage to the reputation of Joseph Smith, so I am leaving the thread.

I am headed overseas again and will only have very limited (and expensive) access to the internet for a while.

Read the board guidelines. Do not speculate about the sex lives of church leaders.

[cdowis]

Look guys, we can do this all day. I could mention the first hand testimony of an individual who claimed to be a child of Joseph Smith through one of his plural wives. I could mention that Dr. Bennett, a close associate of Joseph Smith was accused by Hyrum Smith of performing abortions to eliminate the outcomes of the illicit relations of Mormon polygamists with females. I could mention an article in the SL Tribune in 1886 which includes the following text:

I could continue to post these from a myriad of contemporary published sources and you would simply find some reason to deny or discredit them.

So, I am going to leave it here.

Hmmmm.... you make scurrilous accusations, making snide comments in an attempt to destroy JS reputation. After giving those sources, you shame-faced state that you are going to "leave it here".

Thank you Mariner. You have made your position very clear.

What you need to realize is that this is the view that anyone who looks for information about Joseph Smith on the internet will eventually come up with. if they have not been conditioned from youth to reflexively dismiss anything negative about Joseph Smith that they encounter, then the sheer weight of evidence, including that LDS Church sanctioned sources, would lead one to believe that Joseph Smith indeed had sexual relations with his wives, just as the latter day polygamist prophet, Warren Jeffs, had sexual relations with his wives.

Got it. He was just another Warren Jeffs.... etc.

Absolutely irrefutable logic.

snip

IMHO your persistent questioning along this line has caused enough damage to the reputation of Joseph Smith, so I am leaving the thread.

I feel like Columbo. Too bad you are leaving town just when I was going to ask you some more questions.

Edited May 11, 2012 by cdowis

[ERayR]

Look guys, we can do this all day. I could mention the first hand testimony of an individual who claimed to be a child of Joseph Smith through one of his plural wives. I could mention that Dr. Bennett, a close associate of Joseph Smith was accused by Hyrum Smith of performing abortions to eliminate the outcomes of the illicit relations of Mormon polygamists with females. I could mention an article in the SL Tribune in 1886 which includes the following text:

I could continue to post these from a myriad of contemporary published sources and you would simply find some reason to deny or discredit them.

So, I am going to leave it here. What you need to realize is that this is the view that anyone who looks for information about Joseph Smith on the internet will eventually come up with. if they have not been conditioned from youth to reflexively dismiss anything negative about Joseph Smith that they encounter, then the sheer weight of evidence, including that LDS Church sanctioned sources, would lead one to believe that Joseph Smith indeed had sexual relations with his wives, just as the latter day polygamist prophet, Warren Jeffs, had sexual relations with his wives.

The weight of evidence and explanatory power of the assertion that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his plural wives is much greater than the weight of evidence or explanatory power of the assertions of the three witnesses.

IMHO your persistent questioning along this line has caused enough damage to the reputation of Joseph Smith, so I am leaving the thread.

I am headed overseas again and will only have very limited (and expensive) access to the internet for a while.

And I could show testimony from my childhood that the moon was made of green cheese but alas I have since found out tis not so.

I am NOT say he did or did not have marital relations with some of his polygamous wives but if he did, SO WHAT, he was married to them and that is what married folks do and have done since Adam and Eve.

Edited May 11, 2012 by ERayR

[ERayR]

By the way has this thread gotten off topic or is it just me?

[BCSpace]

By the way has this thread gotten off topic or is it just me?

Seems to have. Back on topic, I'm feeling pretty comfortable with my reonciliation of evolution with LDS doctrine. All I do is accept all doctrine and all science and don't require God to do anything different than what He is already reported to have done.

[mfbukowski]

By the way has this thread gotten off topic or is it just me?

No, it's not off topic. In fact what happened was that all Joseph Smith descendants from wives other than Emma were mutants who's DNA was altered so that they became anti-Mormons, and all living anti-Mormons are descended from them, which explains fully why we cannot find Joseph's DNA anywhere but in common descendents of Joseph and Emma, and simultaneously explains why anti-Mormons are so completely unable to look at anything except in the most literal possible way.

They can't help it. It's in their genes. They evolved that way.

Now there's a reconciliation theory that puts it ALL together!

Edited May 11, 2012 by mfbukowski

[ERayR]

No, it's not off topic. In fact what happened was that all Joseph Smith descendants from wives other than Emma were mutants who's DNA was altered so that they became anti-Mormons, and all living anti-Mormons are descended from them, which explains fully why we cannot find Joseph's DNA anywhere but in common descendents of Joseph and Emma, and simultaneously explains why anti-Mormons are so completely unable to look at anything except in the most literal possible way.

They can't help it. It's in their genes. They evolved that way.

Now there's a reconciliation theory that puts it ALL together!

It works as a theory and is quite plausible but have any empirical data to back it up?

[mfbukowski]

It works as a theory and is quite plausible but have any empirical data to back it up?

Data? We don't need no stinkin' data! You must be one of THEM!

[ERayR]

Data? We don't need no stinkin' data! You must be one of THEM!

Your right it must have been the mushrooms in my salad.

[altersteve]

Look guys, we can do this all day. I could mention the first hand testimony of an individual who claimed to be a child of Joseph Smith through one of his plural wives.

If you're talking about Josephine Lyons, then it would be more accurate to say that she claimed that her mother told her she was the daughter of Joseph Smith, which is really a second hand account. But Josephine's mother considered herself divorced from Joseph Smith, and I'm not entirely sure if she was born after her mother was sealed to Joseph or before. If it was after, then she would very well be his daughter by "adoption." But at the present time, it cannot be known if she was a literal descendent of Joseph, since the DNA research about Josephine is still pending.

I could mention that Dr. Bennett, a close associate of Joseph Smith was accused by Hyrum Smith of performing abortions to eliminate the outcomes of the illicit relations of Mormon polygamists with females. I could mention an article in the SL Tribune in 1886 which includes the following text:

"Mrs. [sarah Pratt].: "You hear often that Joseph had no polygamous offspring. The reason of this is very simple. Abortion was practiced on a large scale in Nauvoo. Dr. John C. Bennett, the evil genius of Joseph, brought this abomination into a scientific system. He showed to my husband and me the instruments with which he used to * operate for Joseph. ' There was a house in Nauvoo, 'right across the flat,' about a mile and a-half from the town, a kind of hospital. They sent the women there, when they showed signs of celestial consequences. Abortion was practiced regularly in this house."

Bennett claimed he was performing abortions with Joseph's approval, but only if the women refused first. And it's quite convenient of you to leave out the fact that Bennett would later give an affidavit that Joseph told him that doing anything contrary to the gospel is wrong, period. This was regarding a supposed relationship Bennett had been having with Sarah Pratt, but it fits quite well here too. We should also understand that Sarah was a harsh critic of Joseph's polygamy and was very open about her disgust with it, so it's very understandable that she would blow things out of proportion. She also told Joseph's son, Joseph III, "Your father had mostly intercourse with married women, and as to single ones, Dr. Bennett was always on hand, when anything happened," yet Joseph III's own account differs dramatically. He said that Sarah told him that his father "was never guilty of an action or proposal of an improper nature in my house, towards me, or in my presence, at any time or place," and that he "was always the Christian gentleman, and a noble man."

Clearly, there are a lot of contradictions here, and the fact is that since we have no statement from Joseph Smith about any of this, the only thing we can say for sure is that Joseph was alleged to have told Bennett to perform abortions. So you are, once again, using a second hand account as "proof" of your position. It doesn't work that way. Nearly everything about Joseph Smith was a second hand account, so it's very difficult to come to a conclusion about him without believing whether or not he was a prophet first. In other words, in most cases, your beliefs about Joseph will likely affect how you view the evidence, not vice-versa.

I could continue to post these from a myriad of contemporary published sources and you would simply find some reason to deny or discredit them.

And I could continue to post sources for my position, and you would find reason to do the same.

So, I am going to leave it here. What you need to realize is that this is the view that anyone who looks for information about Joseph Smith on the internet will eventually come up with. if they have not been conditioned from youth to reflexively dismiss anything negative about Joseph Smith that they encounter, then the sheer weight of evidence, including that LDS Church sanctioned sources, would lead one to believe that Joseph Smith indeed had sexual relations with his wives, just as the latter day polygamist prophet, Warren Jeffs, had sexual relations with his wives.

This is what I like to call "mind reading." You claim anyone who has not been "conditioned" (i.e., brainwashed) by the Church to dismiss negative information about the Prophet would completely agree with you, but you have no way to know this. I would also like to issue a CFR for your claim that youth in the Church are "conditioned" to dismiss anything negative about Joseph, which is completely contrary to the fact that children are taught from their Primary years that Joseph was not perfect. We also read a statement from the Lord in the D&C which tells Joseph to "repent or be destroyed." That's certainly something "negative" about Joseph that we do not "reflexively dismiss." It's in one of our holy books, for crying out loud.

The weight of evidence and explanatory power of the assertion that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his plural wives is much greater than the weight of evidence or explanatory power of the assertions of the three witnesses.

No, it's not. Again, with the Three Witnesses, we have three people giving a first hand account of the exact same thing, signing it, and maintaining that testimony for the rest of their lives, even after leaving the Church and developing animosity towards Joseph, and even going out of their way to refute rumors that they had denied it. On the other hand, the evidence that Joseph had sexual relations with his plural wives (and similar accusations) is muddied and internally inconsistent, and is almost always based on second hand information, often given several years after the fact, by enemies or critics of Joseph who don't always agree with each other. It also contradicts the fact that there is no known proof that Joseph fathered children by anyone except Emma (and that there is significant evidence to the contrary). Had he had sexual relations with other women, this would probably not be the case.

IMHO your persistent questioning along this line has caused enough damage to the reputation of Joseph Smith, so I am leaving the thread.

I am very interested how us challenging your position causes damage to Joseph's reputation. Also, it seems (from my end) like your departure from the thread is a way of avoiding to discuss this further.

I am headed overseas again and will only have very limited (and expensive) access to the internet for a while.

Enjoy your time overseas.

Edited May 13, 2012 by altersteve