JLHPROF Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Adam as the archangel could be seen as the highest witness/messenger. Interesting, so to some fundamentalists all three Gods (Adam, Jesus, and Joseph) have condescended to become men on earth? Yes, and they (fundamentalists) also feel that it places a God at the creation/first dispensation, a God in the meridian/between Old & New, and a God for the final dispensation/restoration.
Stone holm Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Although I think most Mormos think of the Holy Ghost as male, do we have doctrine to that effect?
JLHPROF Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 (edited) Although I think most Mormos think of the Holy Ghost as male, do we have doctrine to that effect? Only the tradition that it is a priesthood office and leadership role, and part of a "quorum" containing two other men so would be logically be held by man.Oh, and of course, a bunch of scripture referring to "Him": "It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” (John 16:7) John 1613 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Edited January 29, 2014 by JLHPROF
Bikeemikey Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 (edited) I think that this has to do with the fact that the "Godhead" changes. Adam is known in Mormonism to be part of the Godhead at creation, along with Eloheim and Jehovah. Joseph Smith teaches that the three personages are "The Creator" "The Redeemer" and "The Witness/Testator". Traditionally we have the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (with the Holy Ghost having only a body of spirit). Mormon tradition holds that the Holy Ghost is a spirit child of Heavenly Father (like Christ) and has yet to take a mortal body. I can see though if one rejected that idea how Adam could be slotted in, although I don't know how he specifically fits as "witness or testator". Fundamentalists believe that Joseph Smith filled that position since he was the head of the final dispensation and bore witness of the Father and the Son - a position the Church vehemently rejects. I'm not sure that I grew up with the same mormon tradition that you did. Where I grew up all sorts of ideas were thrown out regarding the Holy Ghost. 1. Pre-mortal spirit 2. Post-mortal pre-resurrection spirit (could be Adam, could be joseph - could even be multiple spirits filling the role at the same time. In instances one and two the Holy Ghost could actually change and is more a calling that could be filled by different spirits. 3. Heavenly Mother Yeah, I think that's the main ones. Edited January 29, 2014 by Bikeemikey
Stone holm Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 I'm not sure that I grew up with the same mormon tradition that you did.Where I grew up all sorts of ideas were thrown out regarding the Holy Ghost.1. Pre-mortal spirit2. Post-mortal pre-resurrection spirit (could be Adam, could be joseph - could even be multiple spirits filling the role at the same time.In instances one and two the Holy Ghost could actually change and is more a calling that could be filled by different spirits.3. Heavenly MotherYeah, I think that's the main ones.Heh, Mike, well not sure we could go with two or three because Scripture is clear that the Holy Ghost lacks a physical body. As to the use of male pronouns, think that is a thin reed. It certainly would be a shock to the system, however, if the Holy Ghost was a sister. Why do we use the term ghost?
JLHPROF Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Scripture is clear that the Holy Ghost lacks a physical body For me, this is one of the most interesting items about the Holy Ghost. We know that all Heavenly Father's spirit children for this earth need to come to earth and get a body during the mortality of this planet. Basic plan of salvation. So at some point, no speculation necessary, the Holy Ghost has to be born on earth.So, it begs several more fun speculative questions: When will he be born? Has he already been born? Will it be a known & chronicled event? What actions and events will his life entail? How will he fill the office of the Holy Ghost while on Earth? How will he die? Be translated? Be martyred (shed blood as a witness)? The idea that there is another member of the Godhead who either has already walked among us or will very soon walk among us as a mortal man is just fascinating.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 .............................................................. The only people -- the only potential Gods -- unworthy of my personal worship are those with a spirit of bloodshed, who desire to be written into the Book of the Dragon; the Sons and Daughters of Darkness opposed to the Sons and Daughters of Light who seek only to destroy others and cause disorganization and entropy. ..........................................................................................................Nice turn of phrase.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 For me, this is one of the most interesting items about the Holy Ghost. We know that all Heavenly Father's spirit children for this earth need to come to earth and get a body during the mortality of this planet. Basic plan of salvation. So at some point, no speculation necessary, the Holy Ghost has to be born on earth.So, it begs several more fun speculative questions: When will he be born? Has he already been born? Will it be a known & chronicled event? What actions and events will his life entail? How will he fill the office of the Holy Ghost while on Earth? How will he die? Be translated? Be martyred (shed blood as a witness)? The idea that there is another member of the Godhead who either has already walked among us or will very soon walk among us as a mortal man is just fascinating.Interesting speculation. Any evidence to support it? Couldn't we also speculate that HG is in line to be the Redeemer of the next world to be created after this one is left behind? After all, what is it that Satan says when asked what he is doing? Don't be so Terracentric, Professor.
JLHPROF Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 (edited) Interesting speculation. Any evidence to support it? Couldn't we also speculate that HG is in line to be the Redeemer of the next world to be created after this one is left behind? After all, what is it that Satan says when asked what he is doing? Don't be so Terracentric, Professor. Not trying to be terracentric but Joseph Smith taught us some principles to guide this speculation a bit: 1. In Joseph's day the HG hadn't taken a body prior to that time. “The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and is waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did.”- Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings 2. The HG was in a probationary state wherein his righteousness was being tested (sounds like Earth) “The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” - Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245 3. Beings with bodies have power over those without. In order to maintain authority over those with bodies the HG would need one. “We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none. All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not." Joseph Smith TPJS 181 Just a few guidelines. Edited January 29, 2014 by JLHPROF
Robert F. Smith Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 I think part of the problem is that the Holy Spirit was not very well defined by Joseph Smith before its death. During most of Smith's life, Lectures on Faith was part of the canon, and they said that the Holy Spirit was not even a "personage," but was rather the shared mind of the Father and the Son. Smith amended his views in 1843, apparently (if his informal discussions with Orson Hyde that made it into D&C 130 were accurately represented, a proposition that is dubious in light of the original record of his statements that are now made available in the Joseph Smith Papers, see http://www.lds.org/s...130.18?lang=eng). In the statement attributed to him in D&C 130:22, he said that the Holy Spirit was a "personage", but there is no elaboration, except to say that if he weren't a spirit, he couldn't "dwell in us."So today, half the time that Mormons reference the Holy Spirit, s/he is referred to as an "it." It is the Mormon version of "the Force" from the Star Wars universe. You can't really "worship" something like that, though you can experience it. I've heard modern Mormons explain that the Holy Spirit resides in one place, but his "influence" is felt everywhere. But if that were true, then Smith's statement in D&C 130:22 that the Holy Spirit had to be a spirit so that he could "dwell in us" doesn't make any sense. If s/he is in one place and only makes his influence felt everywhere, it doesn't matter whether s/he is a tangible being or a spirit.Hey, Cobalt,What do we do with Nephi beholding the Holy Spirit (Athe Spirit of the Lord@) Ain the form of a man@ who could speak Aas a man@ (1 Nephi 11:11). That same Holy Spirit is personified as Wisdom in Proverbs 8, Wisdom of Solomon 7 - 8, and Ecclesiasticus 24 (Ben Sira).[1] Although she is led astray by the feminine gender of the Hebrew & Greek words for AWisdom@ (so in Mosiah 8:20b), Amy-Jill Levine correctly points out that the texts make sense in their own historical context. Early Jewish sources speak of Wisdom (Greek: Sophia; Hebrew: Chochmah) or the Shekinah as manifestations of God on earth. Even more striking, these manifestations are feminine. For example, Proverbs 8:22B31 depicts Wisdom as created at the beginning of God=s work and as Abeside him, like a master worker@; Wisdom=s hymn in Sirach 24:1B34 reads like a paean to a goddess; Wisdom of Solomon 7:22B10:21 follows suit, as does Philo of Alexandria=s On the Creation. The Targums, early Aramaic translations of the Jewish Scriptures, sound very much like John 1:1 in referring to the Word (the Aramaic term is Memre) as a divine agent of creation.[2] [1] P. Skehan in Catholic Biblical Quarterly 41:371n.[2] Levine, AWhat Jews (and Christians too) Should Know About the New Testament,@ Biblical Archaeology Review, 38/2 (Mar-Apr 2012), 59-61, 64; see also A.-J. Levine & M. Brettler, eds., The Jewish Annotated New Testament (Oxford Univ. Press, 2010), 157n, 546-549. 1
Coreyb Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Not trying to be terracentric but Joseph Smith taught us some principles to guide this speculation a bit: 1. In Joseph's day the HG hadn't taken a body prior to that time. “The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and is waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did.”- Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings 2. The HG was in a probationary state wherein his righteousness was being tested (sounds like Earth) “The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” - Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245 3. Beings with bodies have power over those without. In order to maintain authority over those with bodies the HG would need one. “We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none. All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not." Joseph Smith TPJS 181 Just a few guidelines.I guess if we believe that it rules out Him being Adam or Joseph
JLHPROF Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 I guess if we believe that it rules out Him being Adam or Joseph Well, I agree about Adam. But the idea that the Holy Ghost is Joseph Smith has some interesting references behind it. It is a bit of a leap, and something that goes completely against Church official position, but there are teachings behind it. The other two major issues with the idea are 1. It's popular among fundamentalists and 2. Many of the references come from Joseph himself. It's a fascinating but strange doctrinal idea.
EllenMaksoud Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 It is often said that we worship the Godhead (Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost), but it seems that the Father and the Son are emphasized more than the Holy Ghost is. This is understandable, since we definitely worship Heavenly Father and we definitely worship Jesus Christ, but what about the Holy Ghost? Do we worship Him as well? Or, in other words, are we taught to worship Him? Someone asked me this question the other day and I hadn't really thought of it before, so I wasn't quite sure how to answer it.Thanks for your thoughts.I've been wondering about this issue, and admit that there is a lot of confusion about it. The First commandment says that there is One God. Then we have Jesus Christ and the Atonement. So, I have been praying to God and then finishing with "In the name of Jesus Christ". Hmmm, what about the Holy Spirit? Does He/She feel neglected? We have not received any direction on this. Is the Holy Spirit actually our Heavenly Mother? For now, I have just allowed the questions to exist.
Stone holm Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 For me, this is one of the most interesting items about the Holy Ghost. We know that all Heavenly Father's spirit children for this earth need to come to earth and get a body during the mortality of this planet. Basic plan of salvation. So at some point, no speculation necessary, the Holy Ghost has to be born on earth.So, it begs several more fun speculative questions: When will he be born? Has he already been born? Will it be a known & chronicled event? What actions and events will his life entail? How will he fill the office of the Holy Ghost while on Earth? How will he die? Be translated? Be martyred (shed blood as a witness)? The idea that there is another member of the Godhead who either has already walked among us or will very soon walk among us as a mortal man is just fascinating.If the mission of the Holy Ghost requires that He not have a body, and that His mission is essential, then logic would seem to say He is going to be the last child born 3
Coreyb Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Well, I agree about Adam. But the idea that the Holy Ghost is Joseph Smith has some interesting references behind it. It is a bit of a leap, and something that goes completely against Church official position, but there are teachings behind it. The other two major issues with the idea are 1. It's popular among fundamentalists and 2. Many of the references come from Joseph himself. It's a fascinating but strange doctrinal idea.Got any references for those teachings?
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Got any references for those teachings? OK - to qualify these, NONE of them teach that Joseph Smith is the Holy Ghost. There is no definitive teaching to that effect. It is a conclusion drawn (again by fundamentalists primarily who believe the Godhead to be Adam/Jesus/Joseph Smith or the first dispensation/meridian/last dispensation) based on some of the following: "Would to God, brethren, I could tell you WHO I am! Would to God I could tell you WHAT I know! But you would call it blasphemy and want to take my life! - (Joseph Smith - Life of Heber C. Kimball, p.333) “...the Holy Ghost is a man; he is one of the sons of our Father and our God; and he is that man that stood next to Jesus Christ.” (Heber C. Kimball, JD 5:179) “Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham’s record, are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator.” (Joseph Smith TPJS pg. 190) D&C 135:5 The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force. "The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has."-The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245 D&C 135:3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. There have also been independent publications on the subject by some authors of questionable backgrounds such as this one:"Darter, Francis M. The Holy Ghost is Who and What. Salt Lake City, n.d. 20p. Rare pamphlet in which Darter basically explains that Joseph Smith is the Holy Ghost." http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Office_of_the_Holy_Ghost - this article speaks out against the belief, but also shows that it was quite widespread in the early church. So while nothing says this teaching outright, you can see how this leap was made by some people. Just an interesting piece of doctrinal reasoning that floats around the Mormonverse. Edited January 30, 2014 by JLHPROF
Coreyb Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 very interesting conclusions, not sure I would draw the same though. Two questions: what really sets Joseph apart from any other dispensation opening prophet? Who was the Holy Ghost while Joseph was alive? What of this: The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. ? I don't buy it, but some good speculation
Bikeemikey Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 If the mission of the Holy Ghost requires that He not have a body, and that His mission is essential, then logic would seem to say He is going to be the last child born There is no prohibition on him being a spirit that has already died and is waiting to get a body. Sure it would mean that Joseph Smith was totally wrong when he clearly said that the HG was waiting to get a body... Maybe he's waiting for a celestial body upon his return to a perfected earth?
Bikeemikey Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 If the mission of the Holy Ghost requires that He not have a body, and that His mission is essential, then logic would seem to say He is going to be the last child born Also not sure what principle of universal law requires the HG to not have a body. Are we actually saying the HG can do something god can't?
Stone holm Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Also not sure what principle of universal law requires the HG to not have a body. Are we actually saying the HG can do something god can't?Yes, that is the clear implication, which is why the ultimate sin is that against the Holy Ghost.
Coreyb Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Yes, that is the clear implication, which is why the ultimate sin is that against the Holy Ghost.must God always have a "Holy Ghost" in order to properly rule the universe?
Stone holm Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 must God always have a "Holy Ghost" in order to properly rule the universe? Well, if you eliminate the reference to the universe which I am not sure that our God rules, I think that is a very good question. Namely, can God govern a mortal planet without a "Holy Ghost", I suspect the answer is no -- but perhaps He can during a Millenium phase. Try picturing our religion without the Holy Ghost? That would involve gutting a lot of how we perceive people should run their daily lives.
Tacenda Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Well, I was under the impression non LDS Christian folk believe the HG is the mixture of God the father and God the son. Could be wrong, but I like that position, if true. IOW His "spirit" to be with us.
PtolemyGlenn Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) " post="1209340139" timestamp="1391191184"]Well, I was under the impression non LDS Christian folk believe the HG is the mixture of God the father and God the son. Could be wrong, but I like that position, if true. IOW His "spirit" to be with us. Edited January 31, 2014 by PtolemyGlenn
danielwoods Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Well, I was under the impression non LDS Christian folk believe the HG is the mixture of God the father and God the son. Could be wrong, but I like that position, if true. IOW His "spirit" to be with us. Three persons, one infinite being that both transcends and holds all things together.
Recommended Posts