Women In The Workforce Damages Children Redux

[katherine the great]

While my children and their spouses work, their children receive quality childcare. I am understandably proud of my grandchildren but I see no dysfunctionality in their social skills nor school work that so many here loosely attribute to public childcare, quite the contrary.

It sounds like your grandchildren's "quality" daycare was not what the OP article was addressing. It was the daycare children of middle class people who cannot afford upscale daycare. However, I'm also always skeptical of these types of studies without a good look at the data.

[Grundelwalken]

The myth, nay, the lie, that "quality" time is more important that "quantity" time is another insidious concept that destroys family. You can't have quality without quantity. How much, what the threshold is, depends to an extent on which parent we're talking about. But mothers' job simply takes more time than dads' does. I do not understand how, but there is an important connection that happens when a diaper gets changed, or an owey is kissed, or a report card opened [when mom('n'dad) has decided to outsource raising children], or a child climbs a tree and yells "Look at me!" If mom's not there, the connection still happens, but it happens with someone else. The "collagen" that links one generation to the next sticks, instead, between the child and the "caregiver". Jesus warned us about hired caregivers: they don't care for the sheep children because they are there working for a check, and nothing more—they will not risk their lives for their charges, as a legitimate shepherd does. Lehi

May I offer a view from another side of this question? My wife (with my inept help at times) has a daycare in our home where we take care of varying sizes and numbers of children. We live in Zion and have very little trouble keeping our spots filled with children so it seems that a number of folks have determined they want/need to have use our services.

Some are really in need and can only get by because we (or someone like us) are available and we feel great empathy for their situations. It is hard, but by and large, most seem to work diligently to make their children priorities in their lives. There are, obviously, some things they can't do but they work very hard to love and care for their little ones so they know their real identity.

On the other hand (since we have two), there are a fair number of parents with plenty of means and other options who choose to work. Liking what they do is usually the reason they give, but often it seems they really don't want to take on all the responsibilities of parenthood. My wife likes to say that their children are just an "attachment or adornment" for life. Mom and Dad seem to drag the children from one place to another making little or no effort to include the "baggage" in their lives. It is sad and breaks the heart to watch such ambivalence towards God's cherished sons and daughters.

I am not a social scientist and what follows is just my observation over 30+ years watching parents and children in these circumstances.

It seems to me that some parents make grand efforts to keep the connection with their children through all the difficult things that hit their family. And sometimes it is the simple little things that make a big difference. One little girl had a mom that would brush her hair every day as she dropped her off. You could see it in her eyes and actions that she knew her mother considered her the most important part of her life and it reminded her that she was loved. On the other hand, many parents just dump and run and the kid feels abandoned with these strangers that soon become more family than their own.

That's probably the saddest part: some of these kids grow up learning how MY family loves them and the traditions and beliefs of MY family instead of their own. I would be sick to know that my children didn't understand what I believed but readily could recite or recount events and beliefs of some strangers family.

To me, this is one of the great tools of the adversary's effort to destroy the family. Send both parents out to work and let some stranger teach THEIR doctrines to the kids. I hope my wife and I have given a good foundation to these babes in our home but why would a parent want to take a chance like that with these precious souls. And how will they look back on this mortal experience -- what regrets will they carry when it comes to family? MW

[Grundelwalken]

Mothers have endured their punishment for the Fall, pain in childbirth. Without serious reason, they should not have to endure a man's punishment too.

Wow, This statement, amongst all the others, really carries a beauty that I cannot describe. I know we have many different beliefs and viewpoints but the tenderness of this declaration is... well, it's just beautiful. Thanks. MW

[Bond...James Bond]

I did a personal study of the effects of working outside the home back in 1980, while we were stationed at Ft. Hood, Texas. I was a captain in the US Army, making a reasonable $25,000/year. Jacquie had not yet earned her degree, so she would have been able to earn about $10,000, if that. (Multiply these figures by at least five to get 2012, inflation-adjusted numbers.)

So you had trouble living on the equivalent of $175,000 (35,000 * 5)? Stop complaining right there.

[Bond...James Bond]

I think we should return to the 1950s when a man could work one job and pay for house, car, and college for the sprouts. To do this I further recommend we re-institute the economic factors of the time, such as a 91% tax on the highest earners and a return to strong unions that protect workers' rights and wages so mom isn't forced to work outside the home.

[Bond...James Bond]

To me, this is one of the great tools of the adversary's effort to destroy the family. Send both parents out to work and let some stranger teach THEIR doctrines to the kids. I hope my wife and I have given a good foundation to these babes in our home but why would a parent want to take a chance like that with these precious souls. And how will they look back on this mortal experience -- what regrets will they carry when it comes to family? MW

Darwin forbid that kids grow up in a less than monotone world and receive multiple points of view in life.

[zeez]

This is why I think Relief Society and church callings for women is such a horrible idea. Women should be home (or sitting in Primary) with the children!

Edited March 29, 2012 by zeez

[Bond...James Bond]

This is why I think Relief Society and church callings for women is such a horrible idea. Women should be home (or sitting in Primary) with the children!

Barefoot in the kitchen I hope.

[Skylla]

This is why I think Relief Society and church callings for women is such a horrible idea. Women should be home (or sitting in Primary) with the children!

Zeezrom: You're still banned.

Skylla

[Calm]

It seems to me that some parents make grand efforts to keep the connection with their children through all the difficult things that hit their family. And sometimes it is the simple little things that make a big difference. One little girl had a mom that would brush her hair every day as she dropped her off. You could see it in her eyes and actions that she knew her mother considered her the most important part of her life and it reminded her that she was loved. On the other hand, many parents just dump and run and the kid feels abandoned with these strangers that soon become more family than their own.

I think this too is what matters, whether or not a child feels he can depend on his parents to be there if s/he needs them, to put the child first when times demands or even just from time to time so the child feels important. Even if they are not there all the time, if the trust is there that they are there when it matters, then I think the relationships work.

However, from what I've seen over the years working and living with kids, "when it matters" happens a whole lot more often from the kids' POVs then the parents and it is the kids' point of view that matters the most in establishing the trust.

Considering how easy it is for kids to get the wrong message even in the best of situations, it can be a real struggle for parents who have restricted time with their children due to demands of work or health or other issues.

[KevinG]

The new General Manager of the City Creek Mall is a woman.

Just thought I'd tie the two threads together.

[3DOP]

Just out of curiosity, why shouldn't a woman work once her children are raised? (if she wants to.) I recently returned to school and I feel happier than I have for years because I don't WANT to be at home all the time. I feel too isolated. I want to be around other people and use my mind and learn new things and feel connected to the world around me.

Hi katherine.

I am only offering my "take" as was asked in the opening post. All situations are different. There are reasons why women must sometimes work even if they have children at home. I don't know why you would be less happy at home than in some work environment. My wife does volunteer. My wife does want to visit the grandbaby regularly. She has less time to work in the garden than she wants. She would like to read more. What little money she might make in the world of work would never compensate for all those good aspirations. Some people are drawn for one reason or other to a life with a hectic pace. What you describe as "isolation" sounds like sweet bliss to me. Maybe its just a case of how the grass is always greener on the other side. You think you envy me. I think I envy you.

I have been working now for many many years and my relationships at work are superficial. When someone you think of as a work friend quits or gets fired, you seldom hear from them again. You find out that so and so died after they quit and you don't go to the funeral like you might have while they were working. You have a company picnic and all you talk about is work because that is all you have in common. When I retire hopefully sooner than later, I'll never go back to visit the people in the company that kept on going without me. They won't care and neither will I. I understand that there are situations where you don't work with people whose every other word is vulgar and usually begins with "f". There are exceptions of course. But I have every desire to discontinue my connections with that world. I don't see it as a problem in need of correction. It is part of my cross to bear and it is important for me to be good and kind and loving to those who seem so without any culture or reflection about their lives. But my influence is so minimal. I am just that strange old guy who keeps books in his truck, doesn't use foul language (much), and listens to classical music. My work has been a means to an end. If I didn't have a family? If it was just me...oh my...I would never have stayed all these years.

I understand that there are artists and educators and scientists and judges who find reward in their work. That's great. Really it is. If I had it to do all over, I am sure I would seek that kind of work, but knowing that there is a danger. Work is a means to an end. It is not an end in itself. "Rewarding work" can easily replace other more important obligations and relationships that make it easy to hide ourselves in rewarding work in the same way that a drunk hides himself in a bottle. To be a complete person, we need to take care to keep our working life, however many hours it must consume, in its proper subordinate perspective. I don't think there are many opportunities for women to find work to be more rewarding than the occupations I see my wife involved in. Right now she is lovingly preparing our younger daughter's bedroom with some fun surprises that I know will bring cries of delight when she comes for a visit in a week. If my wife was working, she would be stressed about what she wished she could be doing.

Everybody will do what they want. We all want to be happy. I just think it is a common mistake that can take a long time to recognize if anyone is hoping to find happiness through working for money.

I have a cousin, I guess she's not that young anymore. She worked a bit when she was a teenager and then quit, eventually becoming a full time Mom. "Work takes too much time", she exclaimed. My sentiments exactly!

3DOP

Edited March 30, 2012 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

Wow, This statement, amongst all the others, really carries a beauty that I cannot describe. I know we have many different beliefs and viewpoints but the tenderness of this declaration is... well, it's just beautiful. Thanks. MW

Grundelwalken,

You are very welcome. I hesitated to include that part, not wanting to get sidetracked in some discussion about the historicity of the book of Genesis. I am really pleased that you were blessed with the thought.

Thanks for the kind words.

Rory

[katherine the great]

I don't know why you would be less happy at home than in some work environment.

Because I need to be around other people--almost like I need to breathe. When my house is bustling with people and activity, I'm very happy here (as well as an hour or two a day of "sanity" time when it's quiet.) But day after day of being home alone for hours at a time was stunting my growth and happiness so I did something about it and I have every intention of working when I'm done with school. I think whatever decision you and your wife make for her is fine if it suits her disposition, but I hope you don't assume that women who have raised their children are all happy to garden and clean their houses for the rest of their lives without some kind of outside work. Some of us women like to be a part of the workforce.

BTW: I got a kick out of your comment about isolation being sweet bliss to you. I think my husband said almost the exact same thing to me recently. I think maybe he works too many hours and I don't work enough. Maybe there is a happy medium!

Edited March 30, 2012 by katherine the great

[LDSToronto]

Let's assume, against the evidence, that her job would have been "profitable". What would we have ended up with?

• A tired, cranky wife 50 weeks a year.
  
• Fifty hours a week with her not home, doing the things that make life bearable.
  
  • A messier house.
    
  • An empty house.
    
  • Cold pizza three times a week.
    
  • The list goes on and on and on and ...
    

  [*]A wife with divided loyalties: to us, her family, and to her boss.

  [*]All the headaches that go along with maintaining a second clunker of a car (or the additional expenses of someone else to keep it running)

  [*]The list goes on for a very long time.

I think there are some obvious questions that need answering:

1. Why couldn't you and your kids pitch in to clean the house?

2. Why couldn't you and your kids pitch in to cook dinner?

There is not one piece of doctrine, not a single one, that says it is the woman's job to cook and clean.

H.

[LDSToronto]

My wife has always worked. We have almost always had two incomes. Here are the blessings:

1. My kids are independent - they know how to cook, clean, do laundry, etc

2. We have always had enough money to live comfortably

3. My wife is happy and fulfilled in her career, and not miserable because she is forced to stay home

My kids and home life are great. Sure, the house is sometimes untidy, but I can live with that.

H.

[katherine the great]

Possibly. I am Peter Pan.

Yes you are.

[Tarski]

My wife runs a daycare in our home. The children love her and she seems to be doing such a good job.

It is weird to think about the claim that she is damaging the children. I wonder if she should point this out to the parents. It would be esspecially surprising to the ones that claim the daycare has helped with behavioral problems.

I am sure the study has proven something about all daycares --somehow.

[Pahoran]

My wife runs a daycare in our home. The children love her and she seems to be doing such a good job.

It is weird to think about the claim that she is damaging the children. I wonder if she should point this out to the parents. It would be esspecially surprising to the ones that claim the daycare has helped with behavioral problems.

I am sure the study has proven something about all daycares --somehow.

Tarski,

I've seen you describe yourself as a scientist. I'm sure you've heard of the concept of "outliers."

When we speak of pre-school children staying at home to be reared by their own mothers, I don't think anyone regards it as a rigid rule or a "one size fits all" solution. There will be genuine exceptions -- where, balancing all factors, the children are better off if their mother goes to work -- on every street of any length. I do quite firmly believe that it is usually the best for most children in most families to be with their mother through their earliest growing years. Even in some families where it might be somewhat harder work, less luxurious or less "personally fulfilling" than the alternatives.

Incidentally, my wife ran daycare in our home for several years, too. I'll ask her what she thinks of the article.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Tarski]

Tarski,

I've seen you describe yourself as a scientist. I'm sure you've heard of the concept of "outliers."

When we speak of pre-school children staying at home to be reared by their own mothers, I don't think anyone regards it as a rigid rule or a "one size fits all" solution. There will be genuine exceptions -- where, balancing all factors, the children are better off if their mother goes to work -- on every street of any length. I do quite firmly believe that it is usually the best for most children in most families to be with their mother through their earliest growing years. Even in some families where it might be somewhat harder work, less luxurious or less "personally fulfilling" than the alternatives.

Incidentally, my wife ran daycare in our home for several years, too. I'll ask her what she thinks of the article.

Regards,

Pahoran

It sounds like the study was limited to a "highly subsidized" public daycare system. I'm not sure if we can draw conclusions about working women from that.

I also don't like the assumption that a working mother does not spend significant time with her children. From 4pm until 8 am the next morning and all day weekends is not nothing.

[WalkerW]

Recent study:

Chris M. Herbst, Erdal Tekin, "Child Care Subsidies, Maternal Well-Being, and Child-Parent Interactions: Evidence From Three Nationally Representative Datasets," NBER Working Paper 17774 (Jan. 2012).

Abstract:

A complete account of the U.S. child care subsidy system requires an understanding of its implications for both parental and child well-being. Although the effects of child care subsidies on maternal employment and child development have been recently studied, many other dimensions of family well-being have received little attention. This paper attempts to fill this gap by examining the impact of child care subsidy receipt on maternal health and the quality of child-parent interactions. The empirical analyses use data from three nationally representative surveys, providing access to numerous measures of family well-being. In addition, we attempt to handle the possibility of non-random selection into subsidy receipt by using several identification strategies both within and across the surveys. Our results consistently indicate that child care subsidies are associated with worse maternal health and poorer interactions between parents and their children. In particular, subsidized mothers report lower levels of overall health and are more likely to show symptoms consistent with anxiety, depression, and parenting stress. Such mothers also reveal more psychological and physical aggression toward their children and are more likely to utilize spanking as a disciplinary tool. Together, these findings suggest that work-based public policies aimed at economically disadvantaged mothers may ultimately undermine family well-being.

I actually downloaded it last week and came across this thread today.

Edited March 30, 2012 by WalkerW

[KevinG]

The men vs. women angle is a false dichotomy.

It is any person who placed their career over their role as a parent who damaged children. The rest is just details and personal situations that are nobody's business but the family's.

[Yirgacheffe]

Being Catholic, I am not familiar with the Proclamation of the Family, but anticipating the times in which we find ourselves, a recent pope spoke disparagingly of the trend for women to see the role of mother with diminished esteem:

---Pope Pius XII, 1945, Woman's Duties in Social and Political Life

I was glad to see Lehi's good post. My good wife also worked a few wretched months when we had children at home. Last year our oldest daughter married, and now approaching thirty years together, it is the two of us again. Lis asked about getting a job. I thought about it. I decided quickly, in the negative. Spend time in the garden. Make the house beautiful. Prepare great dinners. Visit the grandkid. Volunteer. Mothers have endured their punishment for the Fall, pain in childbirth. Without serious reason, they should not have to endure a man's punishment too.

But this crazy world has everything about it upsidedown. Modern women really think they want to work. And then they see. Its not what you think. Its not that great. If you have to work I am not trying to discourage anybody but my goodness, nobody should want to work. Work is to prepare us for those lovely hours and sometimes days of leisure and rest. Vacation! Or even retirement! There is a reason why we get money in exchange for our labor.

We get money for toil because work is NOT its own reward.

Motherhood is unpaid. Why? Because emphatically...motherhood IS its own reward

And an even more recent pope of yours said this:

Thank you, women who work! You are present and active in every area of life-social, economic, cultural, artistic and political. In this way you make an indispensable contribution to the growth of a culture which unites reason and feeling, to a model of life ever open to the sense of "mystery", to the establishment of economic and political structures ever more worthy of humanity.

[3DOP]

And an even more recent pope of yours said this:

Hey Yirgacheffe.

Good work. I was unfamiliar with this quote that you found. I can not be truly surprised except with how explicit the statement seems to be. It is very disappointing from my perspective, but well done by you. If you could provide it, I wouldn't mind knowing where you found the quote to see the context so that I could see if there are any qualifying statements that clarify his apparent position further.

I expect that after review, I will be admitting that you have effectively shown that papal authority is in conflict on this matter. If that is the case, I will not quote Pius XII again without adding the disclaimer that John Paul II disagreed with his predecessor.

3DOP

Edited March 30, 2012 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

No worries Yirgacheffe. I found it...I concede.

I am dismayed. He loved and believed strongly in the United Nations. He wrote of this. I knew it already. But I had no idea just how far John Paul thought it should go. In a letter directed to the United Nations he goes further, calling on the need for government legislation and subsidization to help women become equally influential in public and business life:

The challenge facing most societies is that of upholding, indeed strengthening, woman’s role in the family while at the same time making it possible for her to use all her talents and exercise all her rights in building up society. However, women’s greater presence in the work force, in public life, and generally in the decision making processes guiding society, on an equal basis with men, will continue to be problematic as long as the costs continue to burden the private sector. In this area the State has a duty of subsidiarity, to be exercised through suitable legislative and social security initiatives. In the perspective of uncontrolled free–market policies there is little hope that women will be able to overcome the obstacles on their path.

---Letter to the Secretary General of the United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women, 26 May, 1995

Of course I don't consider a letter to the U.N. to be binding on my conscience. But it is as authoritative as the opposite opinion of Pius XII.