The Great And Abominable Church

[Mike Reed]

Among the old members, the abominable church was implied to be the catholic church because of the Mormon Doctrine book.

It sounds like you are blaming McConkie, even though the association existed long before McConkie was ever born.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Mike Reed

[The Nehor]

I was reading one of these references recently, and distinctly remember something to the effect of "most abominable above all other churches" - this suggests that it is not everything other than the true church. I think it is likely a philosophy or "church of thought" and have even thought that some things in militant islam seem to qualify.

The confusion seems to be that there are two different churches being discussed in those chapters. One corrupts the word of God (that reference). The other is all those who fight the Church of God.

I think the specific church is more likely to be the now defunct corrupters of Church doctrine. The post Church of Former Day Saints and Pre-Catholics. Catholicism as it exists now really took shape after the damage was done though of course they claim an unbroken line back to Peter. I don't buy it.

[juliann]

Alma 5: 40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil. 41Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him.

I think anyone who wants to name-call needs to read a little more of the BOM. Nibley also summarized that tendency well:

Nibley, Teachings of the Book of Mormon, Semester 1, p.290

"But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof." Then we go back to 2 Nephi 10:16 where he says that all those who fight against Zion are the "great and abominable." Who is Zion? Well, don't flatter yourself on that because we come right to that now. Verse 20: "For behold, at that day shall he [satan] rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good." All you have to do is name a few buzz words, and people get absolutely furious. Now here is Zion: "And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well [p.342] in Zion [who claims to be Zion?]; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell." Notice that this trick has been carefully arranged, this equation here—"he leadeth them carefully down to hell."

This defamation of the Catholic church was obviously in play earlier but it also appears to have been shot down effectively. I also think Elder McConkie was responsible for starting it up again...in a book he was privately asked by Pres. McKay not to publish.

Joseph Smith set the pattern; he taught the brethren who were with him better ideas; you well-informed Latter-day Saints know that there are two powers which God has restored in these the last days. One is the Church of God, the other the Kingdom of God. A man may belong to the Kingdom of God and yet not be a member of the Church of God.

Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.202 - p.203 - p.204, George Q. Cannon, April 6, 1879

B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, Vol.1, p.29

The Prophet also from time to time found it necessary to correct the Elders of the Church in respect of their attacks upon other churches. At Kirtland, in 1836, when many of the Elders were upon the eve of taking their departure for their fields of labor, he instructed them as follows:

"While waiting [for the Sacrament] I made the following remarks: The time that we were required to tarry in Kirtland to be endowed would be fulfilled in a few days, and then the Elders would go forth, and each stand for himself . . . . to go in all meekness, in sobriety, and preach Christ and him crucified; not to contend with others on account of their faith or systems of religion, but pursue a steady course. This I delivered by way of commandment; and all who observe it not, will pull down persecution upon their heads, while those who do, shall always be filled with the Holy Ghost; this I pronounced as a prophesy."b

B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, Vol.1, p.29

In other words, because the Lord has opened the heavens and has given a new dispensation of the gospel, it does not follow that his servants or his people are to be contentious; that they are to make war upon other people for holding different views respecting religion. Hence this caution to the Elders of the Church that they should not contend against other churches, make war upon their tenets, or revile even the revilers.

B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, Vol.1, p.31

I would not like; therefore, to designate the Catholic church as the church of the devil. Neither would I like to designate any one or all of the various divisions and subdivisions of Protestant Christendom combined as such church; nor the Greek Catholic church; nor the Buddhist sects; nor the followers of Confucius; nor the

followers of Mohammed; nor would I like to designate even the societies formed by deists and atheists as constituting the church of the devil. The Book of Mormon text ought to be read in connection with its context--with the chapter that precedes it and the remaining portions of the. Chapter in which the expression is found--then, I think, those who study it in that manner will be forced to the conclusion that the prophet here has in mind no particular church, no particular division of Christendom, but he has in mind, as just stated, the whole empire of Satan; and perhaps the thought of the passage would be more nearly expressed if we use the term "the Kingdom of Evil" as Constituting the church of the devil,

[Mike Reed]

I also think Elder McConkie was responsible for starting it up again...in a book he was privately asked by Pres. McKay not to publish.

President McKay regarded the Catholic church as one of the two great anti-Christs of the world; the second communism.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Mike Reed

[juliann]

http://www.sltrib.com/features/ci_12993316

McKay, who became LDS president in 1951, was conflicted about Catholics, Prince says. Although he had warm, friendly relations with many individuals, including Hunt, McKay privately distrusted the Catholic Church and even referred to it once in his journal as a "godless farce."

Prince writes that McKay told another LDS apostle the Catholic Church ranked with communism as one of the world's two great anti-Christs.

A hard McConkie, a softer McKay » The lowest point came in 1958 when LDS general authority Bruce R. McConkie wrote an encyclopedic book, Mormon Doctrine, which identified the Catholic Church as the "church of the devil" and the "most abominable above all other churches."

Hunt apparently went to a new LDS congressman with tears in his eyes, saying Catholics didn't deserve such treatment and took the matter to McKay himself, according to the Topping and Prince article.

McConkie's book was revised in the next edition, Prince says, and McKay seemed changed.

"He never said it directly, but I think McKay was so upset by the negative impact of McConkie's book that it jolted him into believing he had been part of the problem," Prince says. "He quietly reversed field. After that, he never again was negative to Catholics, privately or publicly."

[Mike Reed]

http://www.sltrib.co...res/ci_12993316

Prince and Wright's book is a must read. That Tribune article is also great.

[georged]

This is a relatively simple teaching from the BOM. The writings of Nephi states that there are basically only two churches; the church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil. However, these writings also state that there is one chuch which is most abominable above all other chuches, and from the descriptions given, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this chuch is obviously the Catholic church, but don't hold your breath until the general authorities state that in general conference!

[KevinG]

There are Catholics who would easily qualify for membership in the Church of the Lamb of God, while there are proclaimed LDS who are part of the Church of the Devil. Don't kid yourselves that these descriptions align with a contemporary sect.

McConkie was not only asked to remove the reference from his book - he was censured for including it.

Nephi's writings happened a long time before the Catholic church was "The Catholic Church" so he couldn't have been writing about it.

[altersteve]

This is a relatively simple teaching from the BOM. The writings of Nephi states that there are basically only two churches; the church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil. However, these writings also state that there is one chuch which is most abominable above all other chuches, and from the descriptions given, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this chuch is obviously the Catholic church, but don't hold your breath until the general authorities state that in general conference!

CFR from an authoritative source that the "great and abominable church" is the Catholic Church. And don't cite Mormon Doctrine, because McConkie removed the reference to the Catholic Church from his book's second edition.

[georged]

James Talmadge, "The Great Apostasy"! However, if anyone would sinply read the writings of Nephi, he clearly stated that there is ONE church that is most abominable above all other CHURCHES, and he further states that it corrupted and changed the true teachings of the gospel! What church so you think it is referring to?!? If you can't tell from reading that, just pray about it!

[orion88]

There are two churches only--as Nephi teaches.

There are 3 churches.

The third church is called "the church of the Firstborn." This other church is made up of the

gods and goddesses who dwell in the presence of the Father as kings, queens, priests and

priestesses (Doctrine and Covenants 76:54,56,62,66,71). People who do not reach exaltation

will not be a part of this church.

Brigham Young University has a more in-depth study about this in the Encyclopedia of

Mormonism:

http://eom.byu.edu/i...f_the_Firstborn

[altersteve]

James Talmadge, "The Great Apostasy"! However, if anyone would sinply read the writings of Nephi, he clearly stated that there is ONE church that is most abominable above all other CHURCHES, and he further states that it corrupted and changed the true teachings of the gospel! What church so you think it is referring to?!? If you can't tell from reading that, just pray about it!

He is referring to any organization that fights against the Church of the Lamb of God, as explained throughout Church literature. Please read the following:

When we put all this together, we find that the term great and abominable church means an immense assembly or association of people bound together by their loyalty to that which God hates.

http://www.lds.org/e...of-god?lang=eng

Emphasize that the great and abominable church is a symbol of apostasy in all its forms. It is a representation of all false doctrine, false worship, and irreligious attitudes. It does not represent any specific church in the world today.

http://www.lds.org/m...pirit?lang=eng

It is incorrect to think that any particular church or denomination is the “great and abominable church” mentioned by Nephi. Any group of people that follows Satan’s ways are part of the kingdom of the devil and are enemies of Christ and His Church (see 2 Nephi 10:16). They are like those who live in the great and spacious building seen in Lehi’s dream.

http://www.lds.org/m...phi-13?lang=eng

The “church of the devil” does not refer to a specific church but to any person, group, organization, or philosophy that works against the Church of Jesus Christ and the salvation of the children of God.

http://www.lds.org/m...hi-14?lang=eng

Explain that the phrases “great and abominable church” and “church of the devil” do not really refer to a church.

http://www.lds.org/m...-12-15?lang=eng

There is absolutely nothing "evil" about the Catholic Church. The idea that the Catholic Church is the "whore of all the earth" is not official doctrine, and the Church teaches that this idea is just plain false, despite the opinions that former Church leaders may have had.

[altersteve]

There are 3 churches.

The third church is called "the church of the Firstborn." This other church is made up of the

gods and goddesses who dwell in the presence of the Father as kings, queens, priests and

priestesses (Doctrine and Covenants 76:54,56,62,66,71). People who do not reach exaltation

will not be a part of this church.

Brigham Young University has a more in-depth study about this in the Encyclopedia of

Mormonism:

http://eom.byu.edu/i...f_the_Firstborn

The Church of the Lamb of God discussed by Nephi is the same thing as the Church of the Firstborn.

[georged]

You have obviously misunderstood what I have stated! Those references are referring to what you state, however, there is a verse in Nephi's writings which state that there is ONE, ONE, ONE church which is most abominable over ALL, ALL, ALL Other CHURCHES, and then it goes into great detail describing this particaular chuch! Please read "The Great Apostasy" by James Talmadge, and then comment on which particular church of ALL the churches you think it is!!! Moconkie also understood this! The reason he was reprimanded is not because he lied; it was because the first presidency thought that his true comments were offensive!

[altersteve]

You have obviously misunderstood what I have stated! Those references are referring to what you state, however, there is a verse in Nephi's writings which state that there is ONE, ONE, ONE church which is most abominable over ALL, ALL, ALL Other CHURCHES, and then it goes into great detail describing this particaular chuch!

CFR

[BCSpace]

I have heard various theories regarding the identity of this scriptural entity. Some identify it with a particular church, others with a collection of churches, some with the economic system, some with a political system (capitalism for example), and some with the world in general. I tend to lean towards it being a church - perhaps the Roman Catholic Church of medieval times (inquisition, burning of so called heretics etc). But I have an open mind on this and am interested in exploring these various ideas. I would very much welcome any information, thoughts, insights or testimonies regarding this important subject.

It is all churches (as well as ideas and philosophies) who are not the church of the Lamb of God:

And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

1 Nephi 14:10

Notice some of the details given about the Church of the Lamb of God given in the verses following (they are the saints et al.)

[altersteve]

And why would this one church which is more abominable than all other churches be the Catholic Church when something like, say, the Church of Satan would have been a much more reasonable candidate?

[volgadon]

You have obviously misunderstood what I have stated! Those references are referring to what you state, however, there is a verse in Nephi's writings which state that there is ONE, ONE, ONE church which is most abominable over ALL, ALL, ALL Other CHURCHES, and then it goes into great detail describing this particaular chuch! Please read "The Great Apostasy" by James Talmadge, and then comment on which particular church of ALL the churches you think it is!!! Moconkie also understood this! The reason he was reprimanded is not because he lied; it was because the first presidency thought that his true comments were offensive!

Why the Roman Catholic Church instead of, say, any of the Orthodox churches?

[georged]

If one is a strong LDS, I would recommend them to read "The Great Apostasy" by James Talmadge who gives many valid reasons and arguments why. If one is not, I would not recommend that. Instead, I would recommend to them to first take the missionary discussions.

[LeSellers]

James Talmadge, "The Great Apostasy"! However, if anyone would sinply read the writings of Nephi, he clearly stated that there is ONE church that is most abominable above all other CHURCHES, and he further states that it corrupted and changed the true teachings of the gospel! What church so you think it is referring to?!? If you can't tell from reading that, just pray about it!

The problem is that the word "church" in English has restricted meanings the words in Hebrew (and hence, in the original language of the Book of Mormon) had. In Hebrew (like Greek ecclesia, btw) the wrods mean "assembly" "congregation", not a formal religious structure or organization.

Nephi did not necessarily mean "church", and it is plain that he did not because even at her height, the roman Catholic Church never had dominion over the seas, as he described the church of the devil, the great and abominable church.

General Authorities like H. Verlan Anderson have said that the great and abominable church of the devil is government run amok, and, especially, any government or government-like entity, notably one that seeks world-wide dominion.

Lehi

[volgadon]

If one is a strong LDS, I would recommend them to read "The Great Apostasy" by James Talmadge who gives many valid reasons and arguments why. If one is not, I would not recommend that. Instead, I would recommend to them to first take the missionary discussions.

I can give them to you in Russian, if you'd like. I've done that for just shy of 2 years. I've also read "The Great Apostasy" by James Talmage (no "d").

[georged]

OK, if you have read "The Great Apostasy" by James Talmadge, then I think you can understand where I am coming from. Lesellers, you also should read that book. I think that that church did and still does have great dominion over the seas, but perhaps not so much as in the days of the Spanish Armada.

[LeSellers]

Lesellers,

My name is "Lehi", the way I sign all of my posts. I invite you to join my mother-in-law and past presidents Carter and Clinton in using it.

you also should read [The Great Apostasy]. I think that that church did and still does have great dominion over the seas, but perhaps not so much as in the days of the Spanish Armada.

Good grief, man! I'm 64 years old. I grew up with The Great Apostasy!

The Vatican doesn't even have a navy, certainly not one with "dominion over the seas". Nor did she rule over all the earth. But the United Nations does, or wants to. You pick your General Authorities, and I'll pick mine. But please do not try to say that your interpretation of scripture is the only one possible. You'd be sounding like many folks around here when we discuss the Bible.

Lehi

Edited March 20, 2012 by LeSellers

[georged]

I am also 64 years old, and I can tell you that, perhaps you should read it again. The church of the Devil ruled over the kings of the earth, but that is not refering to the other. This church, which was most abominable over ALL OTHER CHURCHES is only a part of the church oif the devil, which consists of all churches and organizations which are in opposition to Christ's church. There is a very long desription of this particular church in the writings of Nephi, in which it states that this particular church changed and perverted the simple truths of the gospel, and if you read that account carefully, you will see! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which particulart church did those things and fits that descrition given perfectly!!!

[volgadon]

OK, if you have read "The Great Apostasy" by James Talmadge, then I think you can understand where I am coming from.

Which doesn't mean that I agree with you.

Why don't we try this. You post a reference from Nephi which you claim to be about the RCC and I will show how it could apply to a different church. Thus, if the references aren't unambiguously referring to the RCC, or don't fit the description perfectly, then you can concede defeat, as I will do if I can't counter you.

Edited March 20, 2012 by volgadon