Visions Of God And Angels

[zelder]

Joseph Smith publicly testified of visions, of seeing God, Jesus and angels on many occasions. He even wrote down these experiences for all to read. I'm becoming a little bit bothered by the fact that modern prophets say nothing about such things. None of them (to my knowledge) have testified of any appearances. I think I recall seeing something from B.K. Packer stating (more or less) that it is inappropiate for members to ask if church leaders have seen God or angels.

In my youth I was not bothered by any of this but rather fascinated. I assummed that had all seen God and angels but it was all much to sacred to talk about. I no longer believe this. I now assume that they have never seen God or any angels. I would expect them to testify as clearly and as openly and as honestly as J Smith did if any such events had happened.

Any thoughts?

Edited February 17, 2012 by zelder

[Storm Rider]

It sounds as if you have already made your decision as to what you think or believe. Does it make a difference what anyone else thinks? Would your testimony be stronger if they did bear such testimony? Do these kinds of testimonies mean more to you than your own faith?

The twelve are called to be special witnesses of Jesus Christ. I listen closely when they speak of him and I find that when I do my testimony is strengthened. They each have keys of being prophets, seers, and revelators, but there have been few that have publically expressed their functioning in each of these callings. That lack of public demonstration does nothing to my faith, but I think we will see the keys of those callings exercised as the coming of the Messiah gets progressively closer.

[The Nehor]

Joseph Smith publicly testified of visions, of seeing God, Jesus and angels on many occasions. He even wrote down these experiences for all to read. I'm becoming a little bit bothered by the fact that modern prophets say nothing about such things. None of them (to my knowledge) have testified of any appearances. I think I recall seeing something from B.K. Packer stating (more or less) that it is inappropiate for members to ask if church leaders have seen God or angels.

In my youth I was not bothered by any of this but rather fascinated. I assummed that had all seen God and angels but it was all much to sacred to talk about. I no longer believe this. I now assume that they have never seen God or any angels. I would expect them to testify as clearly and as openly and as honestly as J Smith did if any such events had happened.

Any thoughts?

One of the problems is we have a biased sample. We can show that Joseph Smith shared some of his visions. Then we look for samples of unshared visions and can't find any. But if there were any we'd expect the exact same results. It may be more interesting to ask if Joseph shared everything he knew and saw. The answer to that is 'no'. He told friends he could never truly bare his soul to anyone. He complained that the saints couldn't get more of the mysteries of God revealed to them because they couldn't keep them secret. He never told all he knew. I believe that apostles and prophets have visions and see angels. I know of people in the general membership who see them both as well. They don't make a spectacle of them.

I believe that most experiences of this type are not to be shared even by prophets and apostles. The ones publicly announced tend to happen in scripture at the beginning of a dispensation (callings of Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Joseph Smith, Lehi, Nephi) or to try to correct widespread apostasy (Elijah, Isaiah, Daniel, Nephi & Lehi in prison. They happen at other times but are kept close to those who experience them. I think this is for the best. As much as I would love more revelations and visions of this sort to be shared I find that instead I am driven to seek my own which is far more inspirational and (to be honest) much more fun.

[zelder]

It sounds as if you have already made your decision as to what you think or believe. Does it make a difference what anyone else thinks? Would your testimony be stronger if they did bear such testimony? Do these kinds of testimonies mean more to you than your own faith?

The twelve are called to be special witnesses of Jesus Christ. I listen closely when they speak of him and I find that when I do my testimony is strengthened. They each have keys of being prophets, seers, and revelators, but there have been few that have publically expressed their functioning in each of these callings. That lack of public demonstration does nothing to my faith, but I think we will see the keys of those callings exercised as the coming of the Messiah gets progressively closer.

I believe Joseph Smith's testimony. I think it would make a difference to my faith in a positive way if they would testify. I want to believe and I want know the truth. Joseph Smith's tesimony was important to the faith of members in his time and our time. Testimony helps inspire faith in others. I want to beleive that they have visions but they have given me no reason to believe. If they have anything to testify about I wish they would. I can't understand any logical reason why visions are too sacred for modern prophets to talk about but not dead prophets from the past.

[zelder]

One of the problems is we have a biased sample. We can show that Joseph Smith shared some of his visions. Then we look for samples of unshared visions and can't find any. But if there were any we'd expect the exact same results. It may be more interesting to ask if Joseph shared everything he knew and saw. The answer to that is 'no'. He told friends he could never truly bare his soul to anyone. He complained that the saints couldn't get more of the mysteries of God revealed to them because they couldn't keep them secret. He never told all he knew. I believe that apostles and prophets have visions and see angels. I know of people in the general membership who see them both as well. They don't make a spectacle of them.

I believe that most experiences of this type are not to be shared even by prophets and apostles. The ones publicly announced tend to happen in scripture at the beginning of a dispensation (callings of Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Joseph Smith, Lehi, Nephi) or to try to correct widespread apostasy (Elijah, Isaiah, Daniel, Nephi & Lehi in prison. They happen at other times but are kept close to those who experience them. I think this is for the best. As much as I would love more revelations and visions of this sort to be shared I find that instead I am driven to seek my own which is far more inspirational and (to be honest) much more fun.

That's a good answer. I appreciate your thoughts. I too would like to have my own vision of some sort. Can I have much faith that it can happen for me if nobody around me can tell me that they have had that type of experience, not even the church leaders?

There is only one thing that comforts me in this. If I had a vision I don't think I'd make a public spectacle of myself either.

Edited February 17, 2012 by zelder

[The Nehor]

That's a good answer. I appreciate your thoughts. I too would like to have my own vision of some sort. Can I have much faith that it can happen for me if nobody around me can tell me that they have had that type of experience, not even the church leaders?

Sure, the secret is to ask for them and study the ones we have (Book of Mormon has some good ones) and then seek. As you do you develop faith that they happen.

There is only one thing that comforts me in this. If I had a vision I don't think I'd make a public spectacle of myself either.

That is good. It means God can trust you with them when you are ready and I have no idea when that will be. Sorry.

[zelder]

Sure, the secret is to ask for them and study the ones we have (Book of Mormon has some good ones) and then seek. As you do you develop faith that they happen.

That is good. It means God can trust you with them when you are ready and I have no idea when that will be. Sorry.

Yes but apostles are special or especial witnesses of Christ. If they have a special testimony they are not letting on very well. Shouldn't it be their responsibility to tesitfy if they have a special testimony? I'm still wondering why J Smith could tesify but supposedly others can't or shouldn't.

Edited February 17, 2012 by zelder

[The Nehor]

Yes but apostles are special or especial witnesses of Christ. If they have a special testimony they are not letting on very well. Shouldn't it be their responsibility to tesitfy if they have a special testimony?

They do. Regularly and often. They just don't share every detail on how they got it.

I'm still wondering why J Smith could tesify but supposedly others can't or shouldn't.

Don't know. I also don't know why Jesus told some people he healed to tell everyone and others to tell no one. I'm guessing it has to do with that whole omniscience thing and 'seeing the end from the beginning'. Maybe such a witness at this time would cause more harm then good.

[Duncan]

Sometime ago on here I compiled a brief list of recorded visions mentioned in General Conference, it may have been a post that Rob Bowman started

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Yes but apostles are special or especial witnesses of Christ. If they have a special testimony they are not letting on very well. Shouldn't it be their responsibility to tesitfy if they have a special testimony? I'm still wondering why J Smith could tesify but supposedly others can't or shouldn't.

Some have shared their experiences, but mainly in private. Heber C. Kimball. George Cannon. Abraham Cannon (I seem to recall). Wilford Woodruff or Lorenzo Snow (I don't remember which, but saw him in the temple). I know a couple of Apostles have had visions where they have seen him (which is different than a direct manifestation) and shared it. Bruce R. McConkie, in his final testimony, could not have shared a more profound and moving witness of the Savior had the Savior himself been standing there (and no, that does not mean that he had seen the Savior, only that he had a very special testimony).

[Storm Rider]

If you desire to hear the apostles and prophets bear witness of the Savior, listen closely when they speak. I have had the occasion to be close to many of them in less than a public situation and to discuss the truthfulness of the gospel and hear their testimonies. Many of them have seen the Savior to my understanding.

We don't speak about having one's calling of election made sure as often as we used to in the Church. However, I have heard them urge me to seek it. I think this invitation is one that you should also heed. Seek it, pray for it, study for it, serve for it, and love for it.

When an apostle is called to be a special witness, I don't think most of them have had this special witness yet, but the calling is made. I also think you will see changes in the Brethren as their calling is realized. Elder McConkie is an excellent example. Study his talks and you will see a marked difference in tone and quality from when he was first called as an apostle and years before he passed away.

One last thing, know that one of the strengths of the restored gospel is her constant urging for all the saints to receive their own witness of the Spirit for all truths. Our people respond to the call and many, if not most, receive that conscious witness of the Savior and his Church. For some, they depend on, appropriately so, the witness of others. Your request is a healthy one and you may easily be one of those individuals. The difference is in the demand as to where that testimony should come from. Be open to the Spirit and expect that it will come from all places within the Church. Do not be surprised if you hear it when you least expect it.