What Is The Veil?

guitarist · February 17, 2012

guitarist,someone needs help with photoshop.Note eyelashes on lower part of eye.
But we digress from OP.

Heh, good catch. Not actually my photo though... my photoshop skills would make it look much more obviously photoshopped

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Bernard Gui · February 17, 2012

I think the OP was wondering what our experiential veil is (from being human here in mortality), of which the temple veil is only emblematic; if I understood his question.

We LDS talk of the "veil of forgetfulness" that precludes us from the memory of our pre-mortal existence. Apparently, the effects of the veil are determined by faith. By the strength of his faith, the brother of Jared was allowed to see first the finger of the Lord and then He revealed His spiritual body to him. Sometimes, we hear someone say, "The veil is very thin." What does that mean? We also refer

to the "veil" that prevents us from seeing God. Is the veil of forgetfulness the same as this?

Also, I'm not aware of any other religion that believes in a "veil of forgetfulness" or a veil that prevents

us from seeing God. Am I wrong?

If so, where did Joseph get this doctrine?

Bernard

Edited February 17, 2012 by Bernard Gui

BCSpace · February 17, 2012

The veil in the temple represents the flesh of Christ:
So since the veil was rent by Christ's death, it is symbolically repaired by his resurrection and thus is the "new and living way" and also signifies a change in the ordinances.
Not sure what the connection is between that veil and the veil over our minds and eyes other than perhaps the Atonment allows us to pierce it.
[bolding mine] This was an interesting explanation, BC. Don't think I've ever heard that one.

You're welcome. It comes from my answer to the criticism that since the veil of the temple was rent at Christ's death, there is no need for the temple anymore. Of course Hebrews is all about the change in the priesthood and this connection in Hebrews 10 to the temple shows that the ordinances are changed also and still necessary.

nasago · February 18, 2012

Not allways the "veil" has a tangible symbolism, as we have in our temples built on Earth, in mortality period. During the period of time that Adam and Eden lived in Garden of Eden, without sin, there was no "veil". We can assume that they were living in the same celestial time than God. Thus there was no physical or spiritual time barrier for the communication between them and God. There was no "veil" or death or separation.

The "veil" was created quite like a barrier between them and God, at the moment of expulsion from Garden of Eden, with angels in guard at the border (veil) to prevent them return and go to the Tree of Life, in sin condition, now under mortality "probation" time period.

Thus they departed from a celestial "time environment sphere", of immortal life. Thus their "passing life time" started to pass very fast (not more in slowly days, but in fast years). Meanwhile it remained the same very slow passing of celestial time for "God's day" for measuring passing time, in such a way that one God's day period became 1,000 years mortality period for Adam and Eve, and their descendents, living in mortality.

Thus there was a "barrier=veil" separating the two types of time: immortality or God's time periods and Mortality time for Adam and his descendents.

The "time barrier" (1 God's day "worth" 1,000 mortal years measured as mortal human time) is a "veil" separating the two ways of live and measure time period and the consequent distinct values as if distinct coordinates to provide position for the same "point" in two coordinates system, as cartesian ones.

We can see such reasoning and "equation" in Book of Abraham, but at that time an equation on Kolob could not be available according to what is known nowadays about Egyptian mathmatics.

In any way the fac-similes from Book of Abraham suggests=shows the existence of such "veil", as time barrier between the Celestial Time (God's time) and the Mortality time. In fact it has nothing to do with the astronomic or geologic time, or both, since Earth Creation, or from Garden of Eden creation.

Thus "veil" may have many meanings, according the attention and understanding we provide to the "veil", besides that of temple.

Bernard Gui · February 18, 2012

Not allways the "veil" has a tangible symbolism, as we have in our temples built on Earth, in mortality period. During the period of time that Adam and Eden lived in Garden of Eden, without sin, there was no "veil". We can assume that they were living in the same celestial time than God. Thus there was no physical or spiritual time barrier for the communication between them and God. There was no "veil" or death or separation.
The "veil" was created quite like a barrier between them and God, at the moment of expulsion from Garden of Eden, with angels in guard at the border (veil) to prevent them return and go to the Tree of Life, in sin condition, now under mortality "probation" time period.
Thus they departed from a celestial "time environment sphere", of immortal life. Thus their "passing life time" started to pass very fast (not more in slowly days, but in fast years). Meanwhile it remained the same very slow passing of celestial time for "God's day" for measuring passing time, in such a way that one God's day period became 1,000 years mortality period for Adam and Eve, and their descendents, living in mortality.
Thus there was a "barrier=veil" separating the two types of time: immortality or God's time periods and Mortality time for Adam and his descendents.
The "time barrier" (1 God's day "worth" 1,000 mortal years measured as mortal human time) is a "veil" separating the two ways of live and measure time period and the consequent distinct values as if distinct coordinates to provide position for the same "point" in two coordinates system, as cartesian ones.
We can see such reasoning and "equation" in Book of Abraham, but at that time an equation on Kolob could not be available according to what is known nowadays about Egyptian mathmatics.
In any way the fac-similes from Book of Abraham suggests=shows the existence of such "veil", as time barrier between the Celestial Time (God's time) and the Mortality time. In fact it has nothing to do with the astronomic or geologic time, or both, since Earth Creation, or from Garden of Eden creation.
Thus "veil" may have many meanings, according the attention and understanding we provide to the "veil", besides that of temple.

So, you think 1 period of God's time = 365,000 periods of man's time? (Math is not my strong subject....1 God day = 1000 man years, so 1 God day = 365 man days X 1,000 man years = 365,000 man days. Time and motion move 365,000 times slower for man than for God. This creates a veil or barrier between them that can be explained by the laws of physics. Do I understand you correctly?

Bernard

S.Ferreira · February 18, 2012

One way to look at a veil is as the boundary between earth and heaven. I appreciate Margaret Barker’s description of the veil:

“The veil was the boundary between earth and heaven. Josephus and Philo agree that the four different colours from which it as woven represented the four elements from which the world was created: earth, air, fire and water. The scarlet thread represented fire, the blue was the air, the purple was the sea, that is, water, and the white linen represented the earth in which the flax had grown (War 5.212-213). In other words, the veil represented matter. The high priest wore a vestment woven from the same four colours and this is why the Book of Wisdom says that Aaron's robe represented the whole world (Wisd.18.24; also Philo Laws 1.84; Flight 110). He took off this robe when he entered the holy of holies because the robe was the visible form of one who entered the holy of holies. In the Epistle to the Hebrews, which explores the theme of Jesus as the high priest, there is the otherwise enigmatic line: his flesh was the veil of the temple (Heb.10.20). In other words, the veil was matter which made visible whatever passed through it from the world beyond the veil. Those who shed the earthly garments, on the other side of the veil, were robed in garments of glory. In other words, they became divine.” Margaret Barker, Beyond the Veil of the Temple, 1998, p. 2.

Note that the veils of Solomon’s temple of and of the tabernacle before it were woven from blue, purple, crimson and white (linen) thread, and embroidered with cherubim (2 Chron.3:14, Exod.26:31; 36.35), which colors Dr. Barker indicates represent matter. When the high priest worked in the temple outside of the veil, his garments were woven of these same colors. Yet when the high priest entered the holy of holies through the veil to make atonement, he wore linen clothes (see Leviticus 16, esp. v. 4). I believe these four colors represented the anticipation of the condescension of “God himself [who] shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people” and who “dwelleth in flesh” (Mosiah 15:1-2; see also John 1:14) and who "shall rise the third day from the dead" (Mosiah 2:10).

In coming down, He would pass through the veil from heaven toward earth and take upon himself mortal flesh...a journey he would later reverse. Thus we read in Hebrews 10:20, “the veil, that is to say, his flesh” as it prefigured His mortal flesh. Perhaps early Christians maintained the symbolism in remembering his now resurrected body as we now use bread and water to remember what already occurred (though I don’t know if early Christians envisioned temples with white (linen) veils—dropping the other three colors—to represent the glory of His resurrected body?).

Jesus gained mortal flesh and was clothed with earthly clothes (Luke 2:12). As Jesus’ flesh was rent on the cross and he “gave up the ghost,” so too “the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom” (Mark 15:37-38). Jesus gave up his mortal flesh, passed through the boundary of this world (the rent veil), and took up immortal flesh (Luke 24) and a glorious white robe (3 Ne. 11:8 ).

The veil represents the boundary between earth and heaven, and the Lord as gate keeper (2 Ne. 9:41) will meet us in our own passage from the mortal to the glorious and immortal.

Edited February 18, 2012 by S.Ferreira

nasago · February 18, 2012

This is based on reply provided by S. Ferreira. Some of it is reproduced below.

One way to look at a veil is as the boundary between earth and heaven. I appreciate Margaret Barker’s description of the veil:

Quote

“The veil was the boundary between earth and heaven. . . . . In other words, the veil represented matter. The high priest wore a vestment woven from the same four colors and this is why the Book of Wisdom says that Aaron's robe represented the whole world (Wisd.18.24; also Philo Laws 1.84; Flight 110). He took off this robe when he entered the holy of holies because the robe was the visible form of one who entered the holy of holies. In the Epistle to the Hebrews, which explores the theme of Jesus as the high priest, there is the otherwise enigmatic line: his flesh was the veil of the temple (Heb.10.20). In other words, the veil was matter which made visible whatever passed through it from the world beyond the veil. Those who shed the earthly garments, on the other side of the veil, were robed in garments of glory. In other words, they became divine.” Margaret Barker, Beyond the Veil of the Temple, 1998, p. 2.

Note that the veils of Solomon’s temple of and of the tabernacle before it were woven from blue, purple, crimson and white (linen) thread, and embroidered with cherubim (2 Chron.3:14, Exod.26:31; 36.35), which colors Dr. Barker indicates represent matter. When the high priest worked in the temple outside of the veil, his garments were woven of these same colors. Yet when the high priest entered the holy of holies through the veil to make atonement, he wore linen clothes (see Leviticus 16, esp. v. 4). I believe these four colors represented the anticipation of the condescension of “God himself [who] shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people” and who “dwelled in flesh” (Mosiah 15:1-2; see also John 1:14) and who "shall rise the third day from the dead" (Mosiah 2:10).

In coming to mortality He would pass through the veil from heaven toward earth and take upon himself mortal flesh...a journey he would later reverse. Thus we read in Hebrews 10:20, “the veil, that is to say, his flesh” as it prefigured His mortal flesh. Perhaps early Christians maintained the symbolism in remembering his now resurrected body as we now use bread and water to remember what already occurred (though I don’t know if early Christians envisioned temples with white (linen) veils—dropping the other three colors—to represent the glory of His resurrected body?).

Jesus gained mortal flesh and was clothed with earthly clothes (Luke 2:12). As Jesus’ flesh was rent on the cross and he “gave up the ghost,” so too “the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom” (Mark 15:37-38). Jesus gave up his mortal flesh, passed through the boundary of this world (the rent veil), and took up immortal flesh (Luke 24) and a glorious white robe (3 Ne. 11:8 ).

The "problem" is that we reason about the "veil" is being just "one", when in fact it is inter-connection of 2 "veils", side by site, at the separation of the mortality environment and of the divinity environment. Thus the "two layered and inter-connected (inter-twined) veil" also provides a "time barrier" between the celestial environment and also the "heavenly time scale and measurements values" (as to compare with those of mortality environment, or Kolob's rule in which 1 Lord's Day is "worth" 1,000 mortality time of living humans.

Thus Jesus, as God and heavenly body person and man, was covered with a "veil" composed of just "one layer", covering the God living in him and God's supreme glory. Thus Adam and Eve could see God only as the Lord creator (not as if through the inner of His "veil", of having the inner glory of the mightiest God).

Thus the Lord, when coming as the Son of Man, into the mortality, continued to be the same Being he was. Thus continued to have the primordial "veil", the "heavenly veil side", the primordial one of Adam and Eve's days saw in Garden of Eden, having the glory as if of the holiest of holy internal side of Temple when representing such days of Garden of Eden and with the Lord staying among them, in such "first glorious" clothing of divinity "veil".

Thus it was as in some butterfly. They left or wasted some part of their body, to reach a higher stage of life, to becoming able to fly away and reproduce.

Probably Isaiah chapter 53 is the best summary of what the Son of Man did when "dressed" (inter-connected, inter-twined) in "mortality veil" over his already existing "divinity Veil", supreme one of God, that Adam and Even couldn't see or remember as Lord Elohim in pre-existence. They were under probation and so many information had been suppressed by such "God's veil". See temple ceremonies... Early days of pre-existence... Lucifer's rebellion....

Isaiah 53:1 Jesus came to preach God's message (as the one from the one who sent him), thus it was through many commandants, as shown in Temple ceremony. The Gospel and teachings are allways the same...

53:2 Jesus was covered with an "external layer" of a "mortality veil", quite like you put over Muslim women... Thus it was not possible to recognize him through persons living in the mortality, as if "outside the temple". "Mortality veil" was covering their understanding. He was/lived as a very common man... He had some protection to fulfill his challenge, as if provided by the "secret service" (angels in duty).

53:8 He was "removed", as mortal man (covered with the veil of "mortality" inter-connected with the veil of "divinity and immortality" in inside side...). Removing the "mortality veil" what was left was the "immortality side of veil". The Son of Man is just a "servant" of God Who sent him to mortality. Even the Lord having the "veil of God", as had done what he did; he was and is allowed to work as an attorney, making our defense before God: for such he was sent. Not all will be saved, as the attorney can't intercede in opposition to the Law. But God is in the Lord, into his “Veil”.

Jeff K. · February 18, 2012

Can curses follow through the veil (thus making them veiled threats)? Both a serious and humorous question.

nasago · February 18, 2012

So, you think 1 period of God's time = 365,000 periods of man's time? (Math is not my strong subject....1 God day = 1000 man years, so 1 God day = 365 man days X 1,000 man years = 365,000 man days. Time and motion move 365,000 times slower for man than for God. This creates a veil or barrier between them that can be explained by the laws of physics. Do I understand you correctly?
Bernard

Dear Sir Bernard.S

Some things are difficult to "reason", mainly if dealing with numbers as in equations and mathematical rules, mainly because we don't know about where and how such relationship started. As the ignorance on mathematics in past days was "h u g e", it is quite usual we have great distortions when dealing with importance and quantities and formulations provided by ancient people. Their mathematics was quite very much primitive. I am almost 40 years teaching (lecturing) financial mathematics for university students. Such type of financial mathematics was quite known even in Babylon days and before and India. But the mathematic way of making computations was "terrible". Procedures as modern exponentiation and logarithm functions (shown in Book of Abraham) were totally unknown, as to compute composed interest rates .

It is possible to “deduct” the equation or relationship Lord’s time = (“worth, equivalent to”) a time period in thousand years, even if Lord’s time is not 1.0 day (is generic). You can check that, as a first guess, in the sacred book of the Muslim (Islam), named KORAN, in which was provided another “point”, another relationship for Lord’s not 1 day x Mortality time. It appears the relationship provided in Book of Abraham is basically correct. It appears something little is “missing” or corrupted, as it led to unfeasible values, as compared to Koran or to my deduction. But B,Abraham is a good start.

Bernard Gui · February 18, 2012

If I may ask, would you tell us something about yourself?

Bernard

Edited February 18, 2012 by Bernard Gui

Jeff K. · February 18, 2012

Dear Sir Bernard.S
Some things are difficult to "reason", mainly if dealing with numbers as in equations and mathematical rules, mainly because we don't know about where and how such relationship started. As the ignorance on mathematics in past days was "h u g e", it is quite usual we have great distortions when dealing with importance and quantities and formulations provided by ancient people. Their mathematics was quite very much primitive. I am almost 40 years teaching (lecturing) financial mathematics for university students. Such type of financial mathematics was quite known even in Babylon days and before and India. But the mathematic way of making computations was "terrible". Procedures as modern exponentiation and logarithm functions (shown in Book of Abraham) were totally unknown, as to compute composed interest rates .
It is possible to “deduct” the equation or relationship Lord’s time = (“worth, equivalent to”) a time period in thousand years, even if Lord’s time is not 1.0 day (is generic). You can check that, as a first guess, in the sacred book of the Muslim (Islam), named KORAN, in which was provided another “point”, another relationship for Lord’s not 1 day x Mortality time. It appears the relationship provided in Book of Abraham is basically correct. It appears something little is “missing” or corrupted, as it led to unfeasible values, as compared to Koran or to my deduction. But B,Abraham is a good start.

Aren't you presuming all books are equally accurate and not copies?

nasago · February 19, 2012

Jeff K., on 18 February 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Aren't you presuming all books are equally accurate and not copies?

No! Such conclusion is originated only from private reasoning and from handling of available data.

It is quite like some medieval scientists did when they started to evaluate if astronomic accurate data, provided by new many serious astronomer, would fit or don't fit into the "perfect celestial spherical circles" (as of catholics) that were generating the mortality time calendar being used by mortals.

They concluded that scientists were in heresy. Even if it was shown the orbit of some "heavenly bodies" (believed to be stars, as Venus and Mars) in fact were of "Planets" that were orbiting around our Sun, at the center of the circular orbit. Thus not traveling through heavenly spheres and turning around Earth, as being the center of Creation and of celestial creatures.

It is possible to “deduct” the equation or relationship for Lord’s time = (“worth, equivalent to”) a time period in thousand years, even if Lord’s time is not 1.0 day (is generic). You can check that, as a first guess, in the sacred book of the Muslim (Islam), named KORAN, in which was provided another “point”, another relationship for Lord’s not 1 day x Mortality time. It appears the relationship provided in Book of Abraham is basically correct.

It appears something little is “missing” or corrupted, as it led to unfeasible values, as compared to Koran or to my deduction. But B,Abraham is a good start. For sure some time span may be somewhat uncertain or not so precise; because they were not living as "standard mortality time" in them (quite like Adam and Eve were not living in the "standard" celestial time, while living in Garden of Eden before the sin and expulsion).

Thus probably in the period 6th to 7th day of Creation, Lord's day period of 1 day would be quite like (worth) 1.0 celestial day lived by Adam and Eve, living in celestial environment. If they were living in mortality, since 6th day of Creation, such "time span" would be worth (never lived as) 1,000 mortality years, as to compare with "scientific geologic and astronomic time" (not linked to the time spans periods reported in Scriptures).

Continuing with the reasoning, in the 5th to 6th day of Creation, Lord's day period of 1 day (5th to 6th day) becomes 1.0 + 1.0 = 2.0 celestial days (also for Adam and Eve, if they were made in the start of 5th day, not the case...), but the mortality time increases to 1,000 x 1,000 = 1,000,000 years "worth, or somewhat, similar to human mortal time, even without existence of "mortality", as for astronomic and geologic measurement, calendars). In fact just "time referential was changed". We can see that the events at the very "creation, formation, organization" of Adam, were quite very far away back in relation to the day he was moved away of the Garden of Eden.

In the 4th to 5th day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled up to 3.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time was available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple. And thus astronomic and geologic time was moving ahead with creation: 1,000,000,000 years.

In the 3rd to 4th day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled to 4.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple, and thus astronomic and geologic time moving ahead: 1,000,000,000,000 years.

In the 2nd to 3rd day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if had Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled up to 4.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple, and thus astronomic and geologic time moving ahead: 1,000,000,000,000 years.

In the 1st to 2nd day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled to 4.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple, and thus astronomic and geologic time moving ahead: 1,000,000,000,000 years.

We can see 1.0 Lord's day = 1,000 = 10^3 mortality years (or "worth" years, at the expulsion of Adam and since then: "constant"). We are not taking into account some “aspects”. This is just a first a raw evaluation.

2.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000 mortality years = 10^6 (or 2 linked to exponent 6.0)

3.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000 mortality years = 10^9 (or 3 linked to exponent 9.0)

4.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000 mortality years = 10^12 (or 4 linked to exponent 12.0)

5.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000.000 mortality years = 10^15 (or 5 linked to exponent 15.0)

6.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000.000.000 mortality years = 10^18 (or 6 linked to exponent 18.0)

7.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000.000.000.000 mortality years = 10^21 (or 7 linked to exponent 21.0).

This is a very speculative reasoning, for measuring time "backward" (to before the organization of this Lord’s Creation):, since expulsion of Adam and Even from Garden of Eden, toward the start of "creation" (in fact just "organization", as also Adam was "organized" as a spiritual being into the tangible matter, as if being covered by a "veil" (mantle) of tangible body that was his new celestial immortal body, living in the celestial time environment. As if they were using a "garment", as the one required to enter into the holiest of the temple and that being their "own veil", their own tangible and spotless body, this one being heavenly immortal one"). They were living in the hugest temple, which was Garden of Eden, built for the probation of Adam and Eve and for God and the Lord visit them as “friends”, as required. There was nothing “wrong” in their “veil, garment” as being worthy to remain into the hugest Temple and into God and Lord’s presence.

Since they were expelled out of Garden of Eden, the Lord's “chronometer” was set to work in a constant pace, keeping the relation of Lord’s time (one day) to the mortality time (1,000 mortality years, “worth”) passing through the body of living men. Some exceptions took place but people and scientists forget about that.

1.0 Lord's day = 1.000 mortality days.

Thus 2.000 mortality years period were linked to 2.0 Lord's day (no more the exponential time relatiobnship). It is very clear in the passing time for humans, as the first men, as for hundred to thousand years, and how they were linked.

The 3,000 mortality years period were linked to 3.0 Lord's Day (no more the rule of exponential time, as for Kolob's rule), etc.

This is a very speculative reasoning.

Reason that 7.0 Lord's day in fact was something like 1,000,000.000.000.000.000.000/2 Lord's day as mortality years = 10^16 (or 7 linked to exponent 16.0) because the Lord "slept" during 1,000 years (as the Lord "rules on passing time, calendar..."). Thus due not so easy to explain, the Creation would be worth some 1,000,000,000,000.1000 thousand years, as if some 1000 billion years worth, thus some 100 times greater than the "creation" as known by the nowadays scientists. But in fact we didn’t' take into consideration the correct position of Adam for "when" he was "organized" in the creation being also "organized".

blackstrap · February 19, 2012

I just felt a breeze ruffle my hair as these ideas passed over head.

Jeff K. · February 19, 2012

Jeff K., on 18 February 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:
Aren't you presuming all books are equally accurate and not copies?
No! Such conclusion is originated only from private reasoning and from handling of available data.
It is quite like some medieval scientists did when they started to evaluate if astronomic accurate data, provided by new many serious astronomer, would fit or don't fit into the "perfect celestial spherical circles" (as of catholics) that were generating the mortality time calendar being used by mortals.
They concluded that scientists were in heresy. Even if it was shown the orbit of some "heavenly bodies" (believed to be stars, as Venus and Mars) in fact were of "Planets" that were orbiting around our Sun, at the center of the circular orbit. Thus not traveling through heavenly spheres and turning around Earth, as being the center of Creation and of celestial creatures.
It is possible to “deduct” the equation or relationship for Lord’s time = (“worth, equivalent to”) a time period in thousand years, even if Lord’s time is not 1.0 day (is generic). You can check that, as a first guess, in the sacred book of the Muslim (Islam), named KORAN, in which was provided another “point”, another relationship for Lord’s not 1 day x Mortality time. It appears the relationship provided in Book of Abraham is basically correct.
It appears something little is “missing” or corrupted, as it led to unfeasible values, as compared to Koran or to my deduction. But B,Abraham is a good start. For sure some time span may be somewhat uncertain or not so precise; because they were not living as "standard mortality time" in them (quite like Adam and Eve were not living in the "standard" celestial time, while living in Garden of Eden before the sin and expulsion).
Thus probably in the period 6th to 7th day of Creation, Lord's day period of 1 day would be quite like (worth) 1.0 celestial day lived by Adam and Eve, living in celestial environment. If they were living in mortality, since 6th day of Creation, such "time span" would be worth (never lived as) 1,000 mortality years, as to compare with "scientific geologic and astronomic time" (not linked to the time spans periods reported in Scriptures).
Continuing with the reasoning, in the 5th to 6th day of Creation, Lord's day period of 1 day (5th to 6th day) becomes 1.0 + 1.0 = 2.0 celestial days (also for Adam and Eve, if they were made in the start of 5th day, not the case...), but the mortality time increases to 1,000 x 1,000 = 1,000,000 years "worth, or somewhat, similar to human mortal time, even without existence of "mortality", as for astronomic and geologic measurement, calendars). In fact just "time referential was changed". We can see that the events at the very "creation, formation, organization" of Adam, were quite very far away back in relation to the day he was moved away of the Garden of Eden.
In the 4th to 5th day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled up to 3.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time was available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple. And thus astronomic and geologic time was moving ahead with creation: 1,000,000,000 years.
In the 3rd to 4th day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled to 4.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple, and thus astronomic and geologic time moving ahead: 1,000,000,000,000 years.
In the 2nd to 3rd day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if had Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled up to 4.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple, and thus astronomic and geologic time moving ahead: 1,000,000,000,000 years.
In the 1st to 2nd day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled to 4.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple, and thus astronomic and geologic time moving ahead: 1,000,000,000,000 years.
We can see 1.0 Lord's day = 1,000 = 10^3 mortality years (or "worth" years, at the expulsion of Adam and since then: "constant"). We are not taking into account some “aspects”. This is just a first a raw evaluation.
2.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000 mortality years = 10^6 (or 2 linked to exponent 6.0)
3.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000 mortality years = 10^9 (or 3 linked to exponent 9.0)
4.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000 mortality years = 10^12 (or 4 linked to exponent 12.0)
5.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000.000 mortality years = 10^15 (or 5 linked to exponent 15.0)
6.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000.000.000 mortality years = 10^18 (or 6 linked to exponent 18.0)
7.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000.000.000.000 mortality years = 10^21 (or 7 linked to exponent 21.0).
This is a very speculative reasoning, for measuring time "backward" (to before the organization of this Lord’s Creation):, since expulsion of Adam and Even from Garden of Eden, toward the start of "creation" (in fact just "organization", as also Adam was "organized" as a spiritual being into the tangible matter, as if being covered by a "veil" (mantle) of tangible body that was his new celestial immortal body, living in the celestial time environment. As if they were using a "garment", as the one required to enter into the holiest of the temple and that being their "own veil", their own tangible and spotless body, this one being heavenly immortal one"). They were living in the hugest temple, which was Garden of Eden, built for the probation of Adam and Eve and for God and the Lord visit them as “friends”, as required. There was nothing “wrong” in their “veil, garment” as being worthy to remain into the hugest Temple and into God and Lord’s presence.
Since they were expelled out of Garden of Eden, the Lord's “chronometer” was set to work in a constant pace, keeping the relation of Lord’s time (one day) to the mortality time (1,000 mortality years, “worth”) passing through the body of living men. Some exceptions took place but people and scientists forget about that.
1.0 Lord's day = 1.000 mortality days.
Thus 2.000 mortality years period were linked to 2.0 Lord's day (no more the exponential time relatiobnship). It is very clear in the passing time for humans, as the first men, as for hundred to thousand years, and how they were linked.
The 3,000 mortality years period were linked to 3.0 Lord's Day (no more the rule of exponential time, as for Kolob's rule), etc.
This is a very speculative reasoning.
Reason that 7.0 Lord's day in fact was something like 1,000,000.000.000.000.000.000/2 Lord's day as mortality years = 10^16 (or 7 linked to exponent 16.0) because the Lord "slept" during 1,000 years (as the Lord "rules on passing time, calendar..."). Thus due not so easy to explain, the Creation would be worth some 1,000,000,000,000.1000 thousand years, as if some 1000 billion years worth, thus some 100 times greater than the "creation" as known by the nowadays scientists. But in fact we didn’t' take into consideration the correct position of Adam for "when" he was "organized" in the creation being also "organized".

I will have to visit the issue later. Its Saturday night and boys night out means Ghost Rider and a meal at In n Out

nasago · February 19, 2012

Jeff K., on 18 February 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:
Aren't you presuming all books are equally accurate and not copies?
No! Such conclusion is originated only from private reasoning and from handling of available data.
It is quite like some medieval scientists did when they started to evaluate if astronomic accurate data, provided by new many serious astronomer, would fit or don't fit into the "perfect celestial spherical circles" (as of catholics) that were generating the mortality time calendar being used by mortals.
They concluded that scientists were in heresy. Even if it was shown the orbit of some "heavenly bodies" (believed to be stars, as Venus and Mars) in fact were of "Planets" that were orbiting around our Sun, at the center of the circular orbit. Thus not traveling through heavenly spheres and turning around Earth, as being the center of Creation and of celestial creatures.
It is possible to “deduct” the equation or relationship for Lord’s time = (“worth, equivalent to”) a time period in thousand years, even if Lord’s time is not 1.0 day (is generic). You can check that, as a first guess, in the sacred book of the Muslim (Islam), named KORAN, in which was provided another “point”, another relationship for Lord’s not 1 day x Mortality time. It appears the relationship provided in Book of Abraham is basically correct.
It appears something little is “missing” or corrupted, as it led to unfeasible values, as compared to Koran or to my deduction. But B,Abraham is a good start. For sure some time span may be somewhat uncertain or not so precise; because they were not living as "standard mortality time" in them (quite like Adam and Eve were not living in the "standard" celestial time, while living in Garden of Eden before the sin and expulsion).
Thus probably in the period 6th to 7th day of Creation, Lord's day period of 1 day would be quite like (worth) 1.0 celestial day lived by Adam and Eve, living in celestial environment. If they were living in mortality, since 6th day of Creation, such "time span" would be worth (never lived as) 1,000 mortality years, as to compare with "scientific geologic and astronomic time" (not linked to the time spans periods reported in Scriptures).
Continuing with the reasoning, in the 5th to 6th day of Creation, Lord's day period of 1 day (5th to 6th day) becomes 1.0 + 1.0 = 2.0 celestial days (also for Adam and Eve, if they were made in the start of 5th day, not the case...), but the mortality time increases to 1,000 x 1,000 = 1,000,000 years "worth, or somewhat, similar to human mortal time, even without existence of "mortality", as for astronomic and geologic measurement, calendars). In fact just "time referential was changed". We can see that the events at the very "creation, formation, organization" of Adam, were quite very far away back in relation to the day he was moved away of the Garden of Eden.
In the 4th to 5th day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled up to 3.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time was available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple. And thus astronomic and geologic time was moving ahead with creation: 1,000,000,000 years.
In the 3rd to 4th day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled to 4.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple, and thus astronomic and geologic time moving ahead: 1,000,000,000,000 years.
In the 2nd to 3rd day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if had Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled up to 4.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple, and thus astronomic and geologic time moving ahead: 1,000,000,000,000 years.
In the 1st to 2nd day of Creation, we have 1.0 Lord's day = 1.0 Adam's day as celestial time being (as if Adam had been "organized") and thus it was piled to 4.0 celestial days and it would be "worth" to a mortality time (that never existed... no mortality time available, as Creation was going on, as shown in Temple, and thus astronomic and geologic time moving ahead: 1,000,000,000,000 years.
We can see 1.0 Lord's day = 1,000 = 10^3 mortality years (or "worth" years, at the expulsion of Adam and since then: "constant"). We are not taking into account some “aspects”. This is just a first a raw evaluation.
2.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000 mortality years = 10^6 (or 2 linked to exponent 6.0)
3.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000 mortality years = 10^9 (or 3 linked to exponent 9.0)
4.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000 mortality years = 10^12 (or 4 linked to exponent 12.0)
5.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000.000 mortality years = 10^15 (or 5 linked to exponent 15.0)
6.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000.000.000 mortality years = 10^18 (or 6 linked to exponent 18.0)
7.0 Lord's day = 1,000,000.000.000.000.000.000 mortality years = 10^21 (or 7 linked to exponent 21.0).
This is a very speculative reasoning, for measuring time "backward" (to before the organization of this Lord’s Creation):, since expulsion of Adam and Even from Garden of Eden, toward the start of "creation" (in fact just "organization", as also Adam was "organized" as a spiritual being into the tangible matter, as if being covered by a "veil" (mantle) of tangible body that was his new celestial immortal body, living in the celestial time environment. As if they were using a "garment", as the one required to enter into the holiest of the temple and that being their "own veil", their own tangible and spotless body, this one being heavenly immortal one"). They were living in the hugest temple, which was Garden of Eden, built for the probation of Adam and Eve and for God and the Lord visit them as “friends”, as required. There was nothing “wrong” in their “veil, garment” as being worthy to remain into the hugest Temple and into God and Lord’s presence.
Since they were expelled out of Garden of Eden, the Lord's “chronometer” was set to work in a constant pace, keeping the relation of Lord’s time (one day) to the mortality time (1,000 mortality years, “worth”) passing through the body of living men. Some exceptions took place but people and scientists forget about that.
1.0 Lord's day = 1.000 mortality days.
Thus 2.000 mortality years period were linked to 2.0 Lord's day (no more the exponential time relatiobnship). It is very clear in the passing time for humans, as the first men, as for hundred to thousand years, and how they were linked.
The 3,000 mortality years period were linked to 3.0 Lord's Day (no more the rule of exponential time, as for Kolob's rule), etc.
This is a very speculative reasoning.
Reason that 7.0 Lord's day in fact was something like 1,000,000.000.000.000.000.000/2 Lord's day as mortality years = 10^16 (or 7 linked to exponent 16.0) because the Lord "slept" during 1,000 years (as the Lord "rules on passing time, calendar..."). Thus due not so easy to explain, the Creation would be worth some 1,000,000,000,000.1000 thousand years, as if some 1000 billion years worth, thus some 100 times greater than the "creation" as known by the nowadays scientists. But in fact we didn’t' take into consideration the correct position of Adam for "when" he was "organized" in the creation being also "organized".

We could make things easier following this speculative reasoning about how it would be the "mortality veil = astronomic boundaries of time of this Lord's creation" if such boundary limit = "veil" was made explicit, for both sides (religion = mortality and science):

1 Day < ----> 10^3 years

2 Days < ----> 10^3 * 10^3 = 10^6 years

3 Days < ----> 10^6 * 10^3 = 10^9 years

4 Days < ----> 10^12 years

5 Days < ----> 10^15 years

6 Days < ----> 10^18 years

7 Days <------> 10^21 years of worth mortality.

Thus it appears the "great Lord's Creation = Organization' is much GREATEST than the Universe known by nowadays scientists (some 15 billions "worth" sized as "years light" as x, y, z, t dimensions, 15.000.000.000 = 1.5 * 10^9 = 1.5*10^9). Thus thus Universe is plenty of other Earth as the planet we are living on. Something we discussed and stated in a quite famous patent of invention, of 1981, quite well known internatiolly, as it discussed the ways and means of mortal humans travelling to so many starts with "earth = planets" nearby our solar system and inhabited. And the design of starship was provided, quite like the Star-Trek that appeared decakes latter. A quite popular patent about time and gravity... yet visited. It was based on a "dream" or sequence of "dreams" to be more exact, of contact of not

For "T" Days <--- "worth" --> mortality "t" (time) as 10^(3 * T) years.

Thus Celestial Times ("T" value) is equal to the "third" of the "exponent = 3*T" of the CubiC (not "cubiT", not a mathematical power or function or value) which represents the "material time". Just only a little "letter" was changed, as in other key D&C the living mortal Jesus, at the moment of death, was turned into the "GREATEST" of the ALL Gods, something IMPOSSIBLE. Jesus was clear the Heavenly Father was GREATER than him...

The problem was also in a small CHANGED LETTER: God x "god = servant (see Isaiah, 53, mainly 53:11) and they changed to "God". Jesus lived as the greatest "god = prophet = servant" as announced by Moses and Isaiah and others... Kolob is related to "CubiC" POWER, not to CUBIT.

Thus it is the "kolob relationship" or "v_e_i_l" for the time relationship as shown in facsimiles in Book of Abraham in "visible representations" with human figures. What is kolob? It is the VEIL and the barrier of distinct time used to represent time at IT with the corresponding rules of changing time (as if the ones required to cross the borders between nations, and making the exchange of money: the rate to be used at the "veil"...) imposed by the Lord himself. This is quite easy and simple to understand.

See Facsimile nr. 2 of Book of Abraham.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/fac-2?lang=eng See the explanation nr. 1.

Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. The measurement according to celestial time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth, which is called by the Egyptians Jah-oh-eh.

Kolob is the “veil” (boundary) that covers our access and remembrance to the first creation. As if a partition in the memory of a computer, a VEIL that prevents you to know and/or to remember what is stored of data in such memory, as of first creation.

Kolob is a referential celestial time that was started to be used at the start of this creation, at the first moment of its creation (at the first day of creation), as if a chronometer that was activated to work. Since then, how can we compute such first passing time in our time? Kolob is the answer. We are advised that in some moment it was imposed, at the veil (boundary) that the mortality time was to be at a constant rate of 1 Day = 1,000 years for exchange with celestial time. For sure a great celestial time had past since the first day of Creation being made by the Lord for God.

nasago · February 19, 2012

In the Islamic world we have the Koran Book literature, which for us is quite alike "apocryphal literature". It may have some background of truth, but it is quite risky to separate what/where ends the truth and starts men additions and corruptions, as related to abridgements (gatherings) and compilations made by men without priesthood and under political pressure of ambitions to justify imminent kingdom/empires expansions and government changes, and they were guiding/pressuring for the compilations. In fact we had that also with Bible history, in some degree, also, as in theological disputes linked to some empires backing some Christian religions. Thus they imposed some their viewpoints and translations, even by swords, as Roman Constantine emperor.

Koran, chapter 87, the Highest our Lord God.....

6th line We will make you recite Our revelations in order that you don't forget them. NOTICE that ALLAH=ONE GOD for Arabs is PLURAL BEING, as ELOHIN for Jews...

8th line And WE will facilitate you the way (pathway).

19th line All of these is registered (recorded) in the ancient Scriptures

20th line The ancient Scriptures of Abraham and of Moses.

CHAPTER 53 - THE STAR

Line 35 Do you have, by some chance, the knowlede of invisible and of the future?

Line 36 Or was you not informed of the contents of the Book of Moses

Line 37 and of Abraham - who fulfilled well his duty -

CHAPTER 46 - THE DUNES

Line 12 -

Before it (“Koran Book”) there was the Book of Moses, a guidance and mercy. And this Book corroborates the other in Arabian language to advice against the evil persons, who do evil things, and to bring good news to the persons who practice good things.

CHAPTER 47. KADR (has no clear translation, it is quite like KOLOB).

Line 1, we revealed the Koran in the Night of Kadr

(thus in pre-existence, before Adam and Eve were mortal, the same with Gospel and Scriptures; Isaiah knew details about the life of Jesus before be born because it was already “revealed”, in some “night”, as it was to be…). Thus we may “guess” the creation works were done during the “day celestial time”, not in the Kadr gathering.

Line 3 The “night of Kadr” is MORE THAN 1,000 our mortal time “worth”, as it was being talked to our people hearing the revelation. By ROUGH reason “night = whole day/2”

Thus it is Tcelestial > 1,000month “t” mortal

Thus it is 0.5 Tcelestial > 1,000month/12 “t” mortal in “years”

Thus it is 0.5 Tcelestial > 83.3years “t” mortal in “years”

Thus it is Tcelestial > 166.6years “t” mortal in “years”

Some POWER of EXPONENTIAL must be applied to the CELESTIAL TIME during Lord’s Creation Days (7.0) to convert it to Time of Tangible Created Astronomic and geologic matter of this creation (universe being in “explosive” creation like, a baby in womb), as to convert TIME into “time”, in the exponential fashion (explosive like).

nasago · February 20, 2012

Let us continue this topic, now continuing a little deeper the reasoning. In fact we are going quite deeper the reasoning, but not in a very academic way, as this should be the case. It is too slippery for some LDS people. Sorry.

Consider, again, that "t" celestial=heavenly of one Lord's Day <------- is Worth ---> 1,000 mortality Day since Adam+Eve mortality condition.

But you learned that when the World was being planned, as the rest time (between the time periods named "heavenly days", and such periods are the Night or Rest periods, as KADR days, you can see and hear that in temple: Jehovah and Michael were not continuously in the Creation and God had to call them. They had time to rest, as in Kadr periods, even the Lord had a Rest period in Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve...).

Thus at some Night of KADR, that is the counterpart of the working period of God to make = organize the Creation, it was planned what some Angels, as Jesus and other prophets were to make, and at what time. Isaiah reported about what was planned for Jesus to do. When did they plan it?

We saw, through an apocryphal like book it was decided in the Night of Kadr, which lasted 1/2 celestial period of Lord's Day (light + night=rest).

We saw that "t" celestial = heavenly for Lord's day period of creation (light + darkness) resulted 2 * 83.3 = 166.6 years (take care, because we assumed as if arithmetic relationship, when we knew it was quite like logarithmic or exponential relationship...). Just to simplify computations. And for the reader understand computations in a simpler way. Thus it was a Rough reasoning as first approach.

"t" celestial <------> 10^3 (exponential power = 1,000 ) * correction factor for "celestial time" when it is distinct of Lord's time value of 1.0 (one).

Then, if it is not 1.0, what is such correction? It is ----> 10^3 * 10^a*a*("t"celestial - 1)

When "t" celestial is = 1 (one), the correction factor becomes 1.0 (one) and the "mortality time" becomes 1,000 mortality time years.

What is the result for the Night of Kadr? "t" celestial = 0.5

Thus "mortality time" worth to Lord’s time at the Kadr's Night, is <-----> 10^3 * 10^[a * (0.5 - 1) ] = 166.6 mortality time years (from Koran Book)

Solving, "a = + 1.5567" which is the slope of a straight line for "celestial time" x "mortality time". Thus it is a "boundary line" or "time veil" like Kolob.

Thus, from such boundary or frontier or “veil”, we can get many points. As the “astronomic worth time spent in the Lord’s Creation, since the beginning to the moment Adam and Even were made mortal and were expelled out of the Garden of Eden. We may have an idea of how long lasted the Lord’s Creation when it is expressed in “worth values” of tangible matter and energy being created (not of mortal beings).

“”t” celestial for start of Creation = 0 Lord’s Day ßà 10^3 * 10 ^1.5567 * (0-1) = 3,603.38 mortality WORTH years. It should have resulted in ZERO. Thus we can see a Deviation in the model. Need calibration, probably from using the Kadr data as to fit them.

2 The same for “t” celestial = end of Creation for the purposes of Adam and Eve probation in Garden of Eden and with their expulsion as 100% mortal condition toward direction. ßà 10^3 * 10^1.5567*(7-1) = 36.032.965.013 years of worth mortality. We can see we got for Lord’s Creation more or less the DOUBLE of the GUESS the scientist have for the AGE of the Universe. Not so bad… Thus the time past (worth as tangible matter and energy) since the start of Lord’s Creation was some 36,032,601,072 worth mortality years (as there was no mortality of humans in such period).

nasago · February 20, 2012

The relationship of LORD's CELESTIAL TIME INTERVAL with MORTALITY TIME INTERVAL

during the SEVEN DAYS of CREATION ("ORGANIZATION") of TANGIBLE UNIVERSE

and "WHAT IS THE VEIL"?