Chapter 4 Highlights From Doctrines Of Salvation, Volume 1

[orion88]

I've read and made some comments/questions on chapter 4 based on what I saw to be the

highlights. Would you read it and let me know what you think? I also included some

scanned images and posted them to my facebook.

This is rather long ... sorry about that.

WE LIVED AS SPIRIT BEINGS

"There is not a soul who has not seen both the Father and the Son, and in the spirit world

we were in their presence" (page 56).

What is not mentioned is whether they ever saw the third member of the Godhead.

WE HAVE SEEN GOD / COUNCILS WERE HELD IN PRE-EXISTENCE

"He was a glorious personage ... shining ... beyond the brightness of the sun. We saw him

in his majesty ... We were made to realize, in the presence of our glorious Father, who had

a tangible body ... which shone like the sun, that we were, as spirits far inferior to him"

(page 57).

Apparently, these were the less developed or dumb spirits who were not able to figure it out

for themselves even when they beheld his glorious majesty - so they were made to realize

this.

SPIRITS WERE TAUGHT ABOUT MORTALITY

"We were duly informed that in this mortal life we would have to walk by faith. Previously we

had walked by sight, but now was to come a period of trial to see if by faith we would be

true to every covenant and commandment our Father required at our hands" (pages 57-58).

"In this mortal life, or second estate, the Lord willed that we should walk by faith and not by

sight" (page 60).

Earlier, Doctrines of Salvation mentioned that Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon,

and others are said to have seen and heard Jesus Christ. In fact, one of the last testimonies

they gave was that he lives (page 36 - footnote to Doctrines and Covenants 76:22-24).

My first testimony (not last) is that he lives. This is based on faith, not sight. How about

you?

AGENCY AND PROGRESSION IN PRE-EXISTENCE / SOME SPIRITS GREATER THAN

OTHERS

"God gave his children their free agency even in the spirit world, by which the individual

spirits had the privilege, just as men have here, of choosing the good and rejecting the evil,

or partaking of the evil to suffer the consequences of their sins" (page 58). "... but the right

of free agency which was given to them enabled some to outstrip others, and thus through

the eons of immortal existence, to become more intelligent, more faithful, for they were free

to act for themselves" (page 59).

I wanted to focus on the word "eons". This pre-mortal life progression apparently lasted not

for thousands and thousands of years, but rather for eons. This is also repeated in Religion

234-235 - Eternal Marriage Student Manual (page 167) and Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of

the Gospel Student Manual (chapter 7).

So for all these eons of time, there was presumably massive amounts of evil in the celestial

home of the spirits when they supposedly lived with Heavenly Father. Can you speculate on

what all these different types of evil are (considering you still have spirits waiting to come to

earth) and what consequences they suffer in the celestial home for breaking the

commandments of the Lord while there? And is Lucifer the same personage tempting them

there to disobey God or if there is another evil entity or entities?

CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FOREKNOWN

The nation of Israel existed as spirit people in the first estate. They were apparently sent to

the Israel on planet Earth (page 59). On page 62, we learn that many other earth type

planets are inhabited by our brothers and sisters.

A few questions come to mind.

Do these other planets also have their own country called Israel? And do they find it difficult

to put their faith in an extraterrestrial Jesus who did not atone for their sins in a crucifixion

in their own world?

WHY MEN ARE BORN TO DIFFERENT RACES

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another

is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we

came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those

who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were

not faithful received less." (page 61).

The book did not mention these other advantages.

THE WAR IN HEAVEN / NO NEUTRALS IN HEAVEN

"There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.

Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions

there just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro,

evidently, is receiving the reward he merits" (page 66).

Doctrines of Salvation, in volume 1, does not elaborate further on the status of the Negro

race. I had to read Joseph Fielding Smith's other book (The Way to Perfection). I have

scanned images for pages 101, 102, 103, 107, and 111.

FREE AGENCY IN PRE-EXISTENCE

"If there had been no free agency, there could have been no rebellion in heaven ... He

would be no better than a mechanical contrivance ... He would have been an automaton;

could have no happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility, and under such

could hardly be called existence" (pages 64 and 65).

This is a rather odd statement to make because this is partially the way Nephi talks about

the existence of Adam and Eve before the Fall:

"For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the

wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither

holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound

in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life

neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor

insensibility" (2 Nephi 2:11). "And they would have had no children; wherefore they would

have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery" (v. 23).

Do you see the similarities? No misery/no happiness; neither sense/nor insensibility.

Adam and Eve seemed to be what Fielding would consider as automatons, without existence ...

even though they did exist.

THE STRAITNESS OF THE WAY

"Mortality is the testing or proving ground for exaltation to find out who among the children of

God are worthy to become Gods themselves, and the Lord has informed us that few there be

that find it" (page 69).

Paragraph 1 of page 58 refers to those who are not exalted as "those who rebelled."

FREE AGENCY IN BOTH ESTATES

"The Lord has given to man his agency. We have it because the Lord gave it to us in the

spirit world" (page 70).

I found this a little odd because intelligences (who are believed to have been organized into

spirit children of their Heavenly Parents) were able to act for themselves (they had agency)

always and eternally. Intelligences would have no existence if this was not the case according

to Mr. Smith (Doctrines and Covenants 93:30).

Thoughts?

[Freedom]

I have found a number of doctrinal problems with this volume, although not as many as I find in Mormon Doctrine. Whenever someone takes a single verse of scripture and expounds it into a paragraph of explanation, problems will arise. If there is ever a conclusion drawn ('We were made to realize...that we were, as spirits far inferior to him') there needs to be a scripture to back it up.

[T-Shirt]

I think most Latter-day Saints would find errors in some of this. That being said, if you want to make the discussion easier to follow, I would recommend that you address these issues one a time.

Best,

T-Shirt

[Bob Crockett]

This work is still in publication. The last I looked, Deseret Book stated that it was "authoritative." It has been used as a priesthood manual. It was in publication when its author was President of the Church. It is probably the most heavily cited reference work in General Conference addresses. I'd say that anonymous posters on Internet boards are more likely to trash it than people who are likely to make such posts.

The author usually isn't called in the Church "Fielding" or "Mr. Smith." He's usually called "President Joseph Fielding Smith."

Edited February 15, 2012 by Bob Crockett