A Microcosm In The Republican Debate

[The Nehor]

Capitalism is based on profit, without profit it doesn't work. Now the question. Do you really want our government to make a profit off of us citizens?

I side with zombie Lenin:

MUST CRUSH CAPITALISM!!!!

[The Nehor]

As you know, I do not believe in taxes. If what the state was doing were useful, and desirable, it would not have to tax: people would gladly pay for the services. As it is, ...

This assumes that people would gladly pay if payment was optional. Experience shows me differently. If I have to pay to get roads to drive on I would do so. If I could get roads without paying I'd do that instead.

[Stargazer]

This assumes that people would gladly pay if payment was optional. Experience shows me differently. If I have to pay to get roads to drive on I would do so. If I could get roads without paying I'd do that instead.

That's the idea, in fact. Viola! Toll roads! You may not drive on it without paying for it.

[bluebell]

Cuba, for all its other problems under Batista, was not a poor country. Castro made it poor. And, like the Kim dynasty in North Korea, he and his brother have done diddly squat to change that, even reveling in their country's poverty while basking in wealth beyond many of our wildest dreams.

When we decided to destroy cuba's economy in order to force Castro to allow US business to continue to do whatever they wanted in the name of big bucks, we made it poor. We also forced castro to have to get into bed with the soviet's when we stopped buying cuban sugar and made sure no one else in the world (but those countries hostile to the U.S.) would buy it either as a way to attempt to blackmail the Cuban people, fermenting that relationship and the poor management of the company that came with it.

EDIT-Hahahaha, i just realized that i wrote 'fermenting that relationship' instead of 'cementing'! I also meant to say 'poor management of the country' and not 'poor management of the company.' Wow, i'm pretty impressive.

[thesometimesaint]

Lenin is dead, GM is not.

[The Nehor]

That's the idea, in fact. Viola! Toll roads! You may not drive on it without paying for it.

Yuck.

[Zeta-Flux]

That's the idea, in fact. Viola! Toll roads! You may not drive on it without paying for it.

With technology nowadays, where you can put a little device on your window and it scans it when you drive, that seems reasonable.

Unfortunately, I know politicians. They like to borrow from one pot to pay for another. There is no reason to believe that the money we pay for road maintenance would ever be used for that purpose.

[Stargazer]

I'm guess I can't quite figure it out, Frankenstein, but why on earth would you say "God help us if he [Romney] becomes POTUS." I mean, in my opinion God help us if Obama became POTUS and he and He already is and are, but so far we don't appear to have become a smoking hole in the ground. Maybe four more years of Obama might put us there, I have no idea, but what on earth could Romney do to the country that would turn it into a smoking hole when Obama hasn't managed to pull it off? Or are you just a yellow dog democrat or something? Or hate multimillionaires? Or hate Mormon politicians? Or Mormon millionaire politicians? Or businessmen in general? Or do you just like Gingrich better? If you'd just prefer 4 more years of Obama, that's fine, you're like a bunch of other folks, but still, why Romney in particular?

Politics is the surest way to get a thread closed, so before it does please explain why Romney in particular is so fearsome, as opposed to Gingrich, Santorum, Perry, or God help us, Ron Paul?

[frankenstein]

I'm guess I can't quite figure it out, Frankenstein, but why on earth would you say "God help us if he [Romney] becomes POTUS." I mean, in my opinion God help us if Obama became POTUS and he and He already is and are, but so far we don't appear to have become a smoking hole in the ground. Maybe four more years of Obama might put us there, I have no idea, but what on earth could Romney do to the country that would turn it into a smoking hole when Obama hasn't managed to pull it off? Or are you just a yellow dog democrat or something? Or hate multimillionaires? Or hate Mormon politicians? Or Mormon millionaire politicians? Or businessmen in general? Or do you just like Gingrich better? If you'd just prefer 4 more years of Obama, that's fine, you're like a bunch of other folks, but still, why Romney in particular?

Politics is the surest way to get a thread closed, so before it does please explain why Romney in particular is so fearsome, as opposed to Gingrich, Santorum, Perry, or God help us, Ron Paul?

The auto correct on my phone put in "meet" instead of Newt. Newt provided nothing of substance, with his remark. Newt panders to the anger, bitter, itchy eared crowd, God help us if Newt is elected POTUS. (that is how i intended the post to be)

(But as for politics in this thread, Bluebell first posted about politics, and after you singled only me for politics, I refrained from posting about politics, however, many others took the liberty to post about politics, and no correct action or plea to refrain was sent their direction.)

[The Nehor]

I mean, in my opinion God help us if Obama became POTUS and he and He already is and are, but so far we don't appear to have become a smoking hole in the ground.

Yet.........

Obama Makes It Through Another Day Of Resisting Urge To Launch All U.S. Nuclear Weapons At Once

WASHINGTON—Despite being constantly tempted by the seductive power of having an apocalyptic arsenal at his fingertips, President Barack Obama somehow made it through another day Tuesday without unlocking the box on his desk that houses "the button" and launching all 5,113 U.S. nuclear warheads.

Though the president confirmed his schedule was packed with security briefings, public appearances, and cabinet meetings, he said he couldn't help but steal a few glances at the bright red button, which is "right there, staring at [him], all the time."

Tuesday marks the 841st-straight day Obama has withstood the button's powerful allure.

"I think I was closer to pressing the button today than I have ever been," Obama said during a press conference from the White House Rose Garden, adding that he would be lying if he said he wasn't thinking about the button right at that very moment. "Let me be clear: I do not want to start a thermonuclear war. But knowing that I could at any moment, and that it would be so easy, well, it almost feels like I'm being tested or something."

"Did you know that if you sort of put enough weight on the button with your fingertip, you can feel a little slack there before it actually clicks?" Obama added. "Thank you, and God bless America."

According to Beltway insiders, it has taken everything in Obama's power lately to distract himself from the button, which the president once told an aide is "sort of begging to be pressed, you know?" At one point Tuesday, Obama reportedly forced himself to stop glaring at the button by leaving his desk and staring silently across the White House lawn, only to return seconds later to gaze at it some more.

Obama has also been overheard asking White House staffers if they weren't just the least bit curious what would happen if he just waltzed in there right now and pushed it.

"I don't want to unleash Armageddon," said Obama, adding that there is a 50-50 chance he won't be able to get through his next day in office without pressing the button at least once. "But it's hard not to dare myself to do it. It's like I'm standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon, taking it all in, and I'm one millisecond away from saying to myself, '**** it, Barack. Just jump.'"

"Bravo-Delta-five-seven-three-Delta-Charlie-zero-two-Tango-Tango-eight-one-six-Echo-Foxtrot-zero-zero-nine-four-nine," Obama continued. "Those were the launch codes as of three minutes ago. They constantly change, but I memorize them."

Sources told reporters that when Obama first took office, the thought of pressing the button and launching thousands of ICBMs only crossed his mind two or three times a day. Two-and-a-half years into his term, however, the button consumes him at all times, whether he is watching basketball, playing with his children, or lying in his bed at night. During a deficit-reduction meeting last Monday with House Speaker John Boehner, the president's index finger was reportedly resting on the button the entire time without his even realizing it.

"Apropos of nothing, the president approached me one day and said, 'Think about it: There is a button 3 feet away from me, that I, a human being, could press and virtually end the human race. Tell me you wouldn't be slightly tempted to push it,'" Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND) said. "Then the president said he often wondered if the exploding bombs would look like a movie in which dozens and dozens of mushroom clouds rise from Earth and can be seen from outer space."

"The way he talked about it, I think I would have pressed it by now, honestly," Conrad added. "Jesus, I'm breathing faster just thinking about it."

Historians have noted that a strong desire to press the button is not uncommon among U.S. presidents. After just one year in office, Jimmy Carter wrote in his diary, "You don't leave a man alone in a room with a button like that," and two years later the pages were simply covered with the word "button" over and over again. In 1974, Richard Nixon rapidly pressed the button 12 times just prior to his resignation, but Pentagon officials had already disconnected its triggering mechanism.

At press time, large-scale nuclear explosions had been confirmed in Pyongyang, Beijing, Moscow, Tehran, and Washington, D.C.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-makes-it-through-another-day-of-resisting-ur,20364/

[Jeff K.]

bluebell, on 24 January 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

What was Castro's big sin? Not pandering to US business interests to the detriment of his own people?

Yes his sin was not US corporate interests, and for that sin the benevolence of the US requires the Cuban people to suffer and deem any one who travels to Cuba a traitor.

God does not judge based on political economic theory but..... the tortures, assassination squads, and punishment of those with different opinions...... Lucy, you got some 'splini'n to do!"

[Jeff K.]

Basic philosophical question for MDB.

Capitalism is based on profit, without profit it doesn't work. Now the question. Do you really want our government to make a profit off of us citizens?

Perhaps you want the citizen to make a profit off of the economy. Our government is not capitalist, it is federalist, you can have a capitalist system in an oligarchy, or monarchy, or even theocracy. Economic and political systems are very often interchangeable. If I might add, the doctrine of our church can operation within any economic or political system which allows for freedom of religion.

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

I quite agree. I DON'T want our government at any level to make a profit. Pay its bills, you know that full faith and credit thing in the Constitution, but not make a profit. China is proving that it is possible to have a Capitalistic economic system within a Communist controlled government. Marx is just shaking his head.

[Jeff K.]

Marx ignored alot of stuff when he was alive. He ignored the rising wages, he ignored the diversification of the work force, he ignored the growing need for differently skilled labor, he ignored much in order to justify his theories.

Life is like that.

My main point, (my western capitalist individualist persona aside), Christs church exists without the need of government or economics since it supercedes all and will continue to do so. Communists should actually want Mormons as their constituency.

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

I think that during his Millenial reign Christ will be our king. A kingdom is a type of government. Don't know what if any econmonic system they'll but probably not what we're used to.

[bluebell]

God does not judge based on political economic theory but..... the tortures, assassination squads, and punishment of those with different opinions...... Lucy, you got some 'splini'n to do!"

I agree. But Newt was part of a group of politicians that LOVED Batista (who was very fond of torture, assassinations squads, etc.) so for him to suggest that Castro (who certainly has his own issues) was going to hell just struck me as such a self serving statement as to be almost pathological.

[Jeff K.]

Not sure of the type of government, kingdom or something else (it may be a system we haven't thought of yet, but the only way for prophets to describe it is kingdom), but I think we will all be surprised by it, as we will the economic system (which ultimately is always based on trust).

[Jeff K.]

I agree. But Newt was part of a group of politicians that LOVED Batista (who was very fond of torture, assassinations squads, etc.) so for him to suggest that Castro (who certainly has his own issues) was going to hell just struck me as such a self serving statement as to be almost pathological.

I don't know if Newt "loved" Batista, I do know that Castro did love Batista(who only started the rev when his own political ambitions were thwarted by Batista).

The statement was self serving, no doubt about it. Cuban Americans ate it up.

[Stargazer]

The auto correct on my phone put in "meet" instead of Newt. Newt provided nothing of substance, with his remark. Newt panders to the anger, bitter, itchy eared crowd, God help us if Newt is elected POTUS. (that is how i intended the post to be)

(But as for politics in this thread, Bluebell first posted about politics, and after you singled only me for politics, I refrained from posting about politics, however, many others took the liberty to post about politics, and no correct action or plea to refrain was sent their direction.)

OK, I understand about the phone, apologies for seeming to taking you to task.

The thing about politics -- I have no objection to talking about politics here, and I wasn't singling you out for talking about politics, I was stating a prediction that the thread would soon be shut down for politics, so you better get in your comment quick before the mods give the thread the heave-ho.

And I agree with you about Gingrich, FWIW.

[Stargazer]

Yet.........

Obama Makes It Through Another Day Of Resisting Urge To Launch All U.S. Nuclear Weapons At Once

WASHINGTON—Despite being constantly tempted by the seductive power of having an apocalyptic arsenal at his fingertips, President Barack Obama somehow made it through another day Tuesday without unlocking the box on his desk that houses "the button" and launching all 5,113 U.S. nuclear warheads.

[sNIP /]

At press time, large-scale nuclear explosions had been confirmed in Pyongyang, Beijing, Moscow, Tehran, and Washington, D.C.

http://www.theonion....sting-ur,20364/

Oh that is a scream.

[The Nehor]

Jeff K.:

I quite agree. I DON'T want our government at any level to make a profit. Pay its bills, you know that full faith and credit thing in the Constitution, but not make a profit. China is proving that it is possible to have a Capitalistic economic system within a Communist controlled government. Marx is just shaking his head.

The problem is communism is not a form of government. It's an economic system. Democracy, Monarchy, Despotism, Oligarchy, Republic, these are forms of government. China is a largely capitalist state with delusions of communism disguising its more totalitarian aspects.

[thesometimesaint]

The Nehor:

According to Marx the state would slowly dissolve into a purely economic system. In reality the economics proved unsustainable by the state and fell of its own weight. Its been 22 years since the fall of the former Soviet Union. That may seem like a long time to us, but it in reality is a mere blink of an eye historically speaking. In the long term no country including, the US, is going to survive the Second Coming.

China is much more complex. It is a Communist government, but for all the world it is essentially a Corportist State, and it right now is beating us at our own game. They even have a housing bubble that far exceeds ours. So I don't know how much longer that can be mantained. About 20 years ago I predicted that in 50 years the average Chinese would say Mao who? I appear to be ahead of scheduale.

[Jeff K.]

The problem is communism is not a form of government. It's an economic system. Democracy, Monarchy, Despotism, Oligarchy, Republic, these are forms of government. China is a largely capitalist state with delusions of communism disguising its more totalitarian aspects.

Actually is an economic system that goes through several government systems, I agree.

[Stargazer]

The Nehor:

According to Marx the state would slowly dissolve into a purely economic system. In reality the economics proved unsustainable by the state and fell of its own weight. Its been 22 years since the fall of the former Soviet Union. That may seem like a long time to us, but it in reality is a mere blink of an eye historically speaking. In the long term no country including, the US, is going to survive the Second Coming.

China is much more complex. It is a Communist government, but for all the world it is essentially a Corportist State, and it right now is beating us at our own game. They even have a housing bubble that far exceeds ours. So I don't know how much longer that can be mantained. About 20 years ago I predicted that in 50 years the average Chinese would say Mao who? I appear to be ahead of scheduale.

Interesting Reuters video about the Chinese housing bubble:

[The Nehor]

According to Marx the state would slowly dissolve into a purely economic system. In reality the economics proved unsustainable by the state and fell of its own weight. Its been 22 years since the fall of the former Soviet Union. That may seem like a long time to us, but it in reality is a mere blink of an eye historically speaking. In the long term no country including, the US, is going to survive the Second Coming.

I think Marx was totally wrong. But to be fair, if he was alive in the early 20th century I think he would have said that Russia and China were both not ready for communism and that the attempt was ill-fated. He saw it forming out of industrialized liberal nations (i.e. Western Europe) not a coup against an autocracy and implemented by autocratic rulers. Marxism as Marx envisioned it has never been tested. I think it would fail if tried but I doubt it would have failed as spectacularly as Soviet Russia or been as ideologically confused as what has become of Mao's communist paradise.

China is much more complex. It is a Communist government, but for all the world it is essentially a Corportist State, and it right now is beating us at our own game. They even have a housing bubble that far exceeds ours. So I don't know how much longer that can be mantained. About 20 years ago I predicted that in 50 years the average Chinese would say Mao who? I appear to be ahead of scheduale.

China is two societies shoved together. You have peasant farmers and their culture and the corporations out of some hellish version of our industrial revolution espousing communism while lining their pockets and exploiting their workers. The next guy like Mao who comes along has a good chance of starting another civil war.