Mormons Vs. Evangelicals In Schools

[blooit]

Mormons vs. Evangelicals in schools

My school is an interesting split (about 60/40) between Mormons and Evangelicals. As a "school of choice" we tend to attract the more religiously active families. I have observed some interesting, and surprising trends.

* Mormons tend to feel much more entitled than EVs. I didn't expect this from a group that values work and places a greater emphasis on works as opposed to grace. In my experience, Mormon parents are much more likely to complain, and earlier to take their child's side when there are behavioral problems. At the same time, they are more actively involved in the school, and tend to have less tolerance for bad grades. There seems to be more of an emphasis on how the family might look to others. Parents often say, "I never take my kids side, but on this one...," only to come back next week and say the same thing.

*Evangelicals have much more of a persecution complex than I expected. For all the talk about Mormons having one, when an EV family has a problem with the school, religion will inevitably come up. Even problems between students are usually blamed on the "Mormon kids" conspiring against the EV kids. In my experience there is very little support for this, but they tend to see it anyway. EV parents will run to their kids defense, but they are slower to do it. Once they do, however, they are a little stronger in that defense and are willing to go to much greater lengths to come out on top. Once the matter is resolved, however, they are much more likely to let things go. Mormons tend to hold grudges much longer (again - a little surprising).

I would add that Mormons are MUCH more likely to spread gossip and rumors, even as they proclaim that they never participate in such things.

It has been very educational for me, and I hope to learn good things from both groups for my family.

Edit: I would add that Mormons tend to be exlusionary based more on behavior (as in - walking away when someone swears, and expecting others to live up to their expectations), while EVs tend to be more exclusionary based solely on membership (as in - you are Mormon, I can't associate with you). When asked, Mormons ascribe this exclusion to their own beliefs and sometimes family, EVs tend to ascribe it to their pastor and parents are usualyl less supportive of it.

Edited January 20, 2012 by blooit

[LeSellers]

I am not sure how, but you could have made your post harder to read: maybe a smaller font size of some script font or other? Please try harder next time: I could still make out what you said. And I know you don't want that.

I have a couple of questions, though. Is "your school" a college, a pre-school, a high school, a grammar (elementary) school, or what? It makes a difference.

Is it a real school, or an indoctrination center run by the government? (In other words, who pays for it directly, and who controls the curriculum?)

Lehi

Edited January 20, 2012 by LeSellers

[Senator]

My school is an interesting split (about 60/40) between Mormons and Evangelicals.

Are you a teacher or administrator of sorts?

[Jeff K.]

Mormons vs. Evangelicals in schools

My school is an interesting split (about 60/40) between Mormons and Evangelicals. As a "school of choice" we tend to attract the more religiously active families. I have observed some interesting, and surprising trends.

* Mormons tend to feel much more entitled than EVs. I didn't expect this from a group that values work and places a greater emphasis on works as opposed to grace. In my experience, Mormon parents are much more likely to complain, and earlier to take their child's side when there are behavioral problems. At the same time, they are more actively involved in the school, and tend to have less tolerance for bad grades. There seems to be more of an emphasis on how the family might look to others. Parents often say, "I never take my kids side, but on this one...," only to come back next week and say the same thing.

*Evangelicals have much more of a persecution complex than I expected. For all the talk about Mormons having one, when an EV family has a problem with the school, religion will inevitably come up. Even problems between students are usually blamed on the "Mormon kids" conspiring against the EV kids. In my experience there is very little support for this, but they tend to see it anyway. EV parents will run to their kids defense, but they are slower to do it. Once they do, however, they are a little stronger in that defense and are willing to go to much greater lengths to come out on top. Once the matter is resolved, however, they are much more likely to let things go. Mormons tend to hold grudges much longer (again - a little surprising).

I would add that Mormons are MUCH more likely to spread gossip and rumors, even as they proclaim that they never participate in such things.

It has been very educational for me, and I hope to learn good things from both groups for my family.

Gee, no subjectvie judgements there.

[blooit]

I am not sure how, but you could have made your post harder to read: maybe a smaller font size of some script font or other? Please try harder next time: I could still make out what you said. And I know you don't want that.

I have a couple of questions, though. Is "your school" a college, a pre-school, a high school, a grammar (elementary) school, or what? It makes a difference.

Is it a real school, or an indoctrination center run by the government? (In other words, who pays for it directly, and who controls the curriculum?)

Lehi

I posted from a MAC (a real computer) and there seems to have been a formatting problem (with the windows server of course) - but I adjusted the font. Hope this helps.

[blooit]

Gee, no subjectvie judgements there.

After earning a couple degrees in anthropology, I don't believe that objectivity exists. At the same time, I would argue that I did not place a lot of judgement in the original post, but did my best to describe my observations without placing judgement as to who is right or wrong. If we can't do this, how can we even have discussion?

[ERMD]

Discussion about what, exactly?

[Jeff K.]

I would argue that I did not place a lot of judgement in the original post

I would add that Mormons are MUCH more likely to spread gossip and rumors, even as they proclaim that they never participate in such things.

Yep, no judgement there.

After all you have done extensive field work in various different media regarding the amount of gossip that communities produce, and as an athropologist with couple of degrees who never ever falls back on the fallacy of authority, you have documented specifically the number of times one group falls into gossip versus another, and since you have open and equal access to the gossip of both groups (knowing that both are open to telling you all the gossip they have, versus the gossip they feel pertinent to you) that as such the judgement tossed into that one statement is I am sure "minimal" as you try mightily to be objective about those gossipy Mormons.

You are such a kidder.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Jeff K.

[LeSellers]

I adjusted the font. Hope this helps.

I can read it more easily now, thank you, but you still did not answer the questions.

Who owns and runs the school?

What kind of school is it?

Lehi

Edited January 20, 2012 by LeSellers

[blooit]

I am making a set of observations based on my experience. Observations are always subjective, and true objectivity doesn't exist. You can accept or reject my observations, perhaps even based on your own, but they are my observations nonetheless - as a Mormon, public school administrator.

[Jeff K.]

But you present nothing that gives us a basis for measuring the accuracy of that statement alone (much less the others). Are you really telling us to to take your word for it that Mormons are more gossipy than evangelicals? Or as you say it

"MUCH more likely to spread gossip and rumors, even as they proclaim that they never participate in such things."

Doesn't "your assessment" also fall into the catagory of gossip, given you present no evidence? And isn't gossip, as you have defined it, "just observation"? Which you are claiming to be doing?

[Jeff K.]

Of course we can always fall back on your "authority" to make such pronouncements, but wouldn't you call that a fallacious piece of logic?

[frankenstein]

I am making a set of observations based on my experience. Observations are always subjective, and true objectivity doesn't exist. You can accept or reject my observations, perhaps even based on your own, but they are my observations nonetheless - as a Mormon, public school administrator.

I will save you from wasting time. You made statements about your observations that is fine with most people, especially since you limit your statements to the group you observed. For some the problem is you made negative statements about LDS people, no matter how true or accurate your observations are you still made negative statements about LDS people, therefore you are an anti-Mormon and automatically you can not be trusted because of your negative observations......so don't waste more time than you already have.

BTW all schools are attended by choice so I imagine you are speaking of a public school in the northwest.

Edited January 20, 2012 by frankenstein

[KevinG]

Living in an almost exclusively Baptist/Evangelical culture (Suburban Atlanta Georgia) I could probably take your opening post and reverse the words Mormon and Evangelical and have it ring true (although the ratio of LDS is much smaller 99:1).

I think some of the pheonomena you are observing has to do with majority/minority groups in cultures being less apt to question their own behavior - more than a weakness that can be assigned to a particular religion.

Assuming your ratios are correct (and I think they are a bit broad) Imagine how the .05% atheists, Muslims or other Protestants feel in an environment where nearly everyone else is LDS or Evangelical!!

To your point the LDS Church teaches us about gossip, service and the importance of education for a reason. We need to hear it.

Edited January 20, 2012 by DaddyG

[LeSellers]

all schools are attended by choice so I imagine you are speaking of a public school in the northwest.

The law is "compulsory attendance". To claim that children attend (and that their parents send them) "by choice" is completely at odds with the police power of the state. Every child must attend a school (as defined by the state, not the parents) so no child attends school by choice. If his parents (after paying the obscene taxes to run the state's incarceration centers) can afford to use a school other than the state's youth concentration camps, they often do. (Interestingly, government school teachers send their own children to private schools at a rate far in excess of the rest of the populace. One is left to ponder why. Do they know somehthing the rest do not?)

We are still in the dark regarding the kind of school blooit "administers". High school? Elementary? Middle School? "Headstart" (which fails to meet its own limited mandate)?

Lehi

Edited January 20, 2012 by LeSellers

[Jeff K.]

Logic makes for a difficult task master.

Despite Frankensteins claim of clairvoyance, which is somewhat silly when you think about it, the questions raised were legit. Frankensteins problem is that he doesn't think about the questions and observations, he simply accepts. Let us assume that it is an act of faith and hope on his part since its always juicy to speak gossip about Mormons gossiping.

The fact is, I was so hoping someone would catch on, that if you reversed the names or terms for each group, my questions remain legitmate questions of judgement. The implication of hypocrisy for anyone group would bother me, whether it be evangelicals (many of whom are my friends and who are just as discrete) as it would for Mormons, and Mulsims and atheists. Frankenstein cannot understand that or chooses not to, it is a flaw.

Then again, I would critique the idea that "as an anthropologist" one knows gossip when they see it. And somehow those four years and whatever of college for that learned degree have prepared one to judge gossip as being what it is, and the depth of that gossip, quality of said gossip, and so on. I never knew those lambskins carried such inherent power.

The irony of course is that when someone decides to make unsubstantiated remarks about a person we call it gossip, but when a person with a degree in some sort of anthropology does it, well, then we need to know whats wrong with those MORMONS!.

Or evangelicals, or Jews, and so on and so on.

Do you get it yet Frankenstern?

[KevinG]

... no matter how true or accurate your observations are you still made negative statements about LDS people, therefore you are an anti-Mormon and automatically you can not be trusted because of your negative observations...

I don't question his observations as much as his reasons for coming to an LDS board and complaining about the behavior of LDS relative to Evangelicals. I would never go to the website for the huge Baptist Church in town and start lecturing them on how they are more entitled and gossipy than the Mormons in the area. That just seems like a good way to offend people or start a fight.

Perhaps us eeeeebil, cliquey, priveledged Mermuns need a good talking down too?

[KevinG]

As an aside...

I origianlly clicked on this title because I thought someone's LDS Children might be facing discrimination or tounting because of their religion in a public school at the hands of Evangelical students who were taught the Mormons were Satanic or Un-Christian.

That is the experience my children have had in High School. However they have had just as many friends stick up for their Mormon beliefs as they have had critics, who I suspect were mirroring the opinions of parents or preachers, and who aren't really full of hatred towards my kids.

Kids will always find something different to pick at. Usually the catalyst is supplied by adults. My advice is the same as I would have given to an LDS family who suffered gossip or prejudice. Focus on the friends, correct politely when an untruth is told and be charitable towards others. If they cannot love you for your example at least they will have to respect you.

[Jeff K.]

Chuckle, having lived in Southwest VA and in TN, I can tell you that teens and groups continually engage in gossip. No group has the market cornered, every group feels they are special, and indeed as someone not trained in athropology so much as life, the human condition and reaction is not defined by being a Mormon or Evangelical, indeed many churches like ours teach against gossip and the harm it does. But for some reason, some people only see the gossip in others or certain groups, never ever EVER the gossiper in themselves. Sigh, hubris writ large

[KevinG]

...some people only see the gossip in others or certain groups, never ever EVER the gossiper in themselves. Sigh, hubris writ large

Spot on observation... organizational behavior research backs your experience. That is exactly what majority/minority cultures tend to do- see the flaws in others that they take for granted in themselves. I remember Christ had something to say about motes and beams.

[cinepro]

The OP reminded me of this case, in which two families, one LDS and one Catholic, sued to end school prayers in the heavily evangelical community:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Independent_School_Dist._v._Doe

How Could A Mormon Family Sue Over School Prayer?

Kent Larsen 23Jun00 N1

SANTA FE, TEXAS -- This week's news that the Supreme Court had ruled against allowing the Santa Fe, Texas Independent School District to have "student-led voluntary prayers" before high school football games was disappointing to many conservative Mormons. It was also shocking for many that a the lawsuit had been filed by a Mormon family. But an analysis of the case history shows why a Mormon family might file such a lawsuit.

The case was originally filed in 1995, in response to the way that the Mormon family, and a Catholic family that joined them in the suit, were treated by teachers and other students in the school district. Both families felt that their children had been discriminated against and harassed for belonging to a minority religion in the majority Southern Baptist town, according to Mormon News' analysis of news reports and contacts with those involved in the case.

Both families experienced a pattern of teachers and students promoting their religion at school. One junior high school teacher passed out fliers for a Baptist revival in class. Invitations to religious camps and other religious materials were handed out in the classroom. Teachers included denominational religious teachings in their lessons. Bibles were distributed in the schools by the Gideons. At lunch time, students were told to bow their heads and pray before eating.

[wenglund]

To your point the LDS Church teaches us about gossip, service and the importance of education for a reason. We need to hear it.

Agreed.

Does this mean we don't fit the stereotype frankenstien trotted out in an earlier post? LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jeff K.]

no matter how true or accurate your observations are you still made negative statements about LDS people, therefore you are an anti-Mormon and automatically you can not be trusted because of your negative observations......so don't waste more time than you already have.

Apparently my questioning of observations gives others license characterize me along somewhat cartoonish lines. I am flattered, the usual suspects must see me as Grendel awaiting the inevitable Beowulf. Let us hope I never have to call my mom into the scene.

[frankenstein]

The OP reminded me of this case, in which two families, one LDS and one Catholic, sued to end school prayers in the heavily evangelical community:

http://en.wikipedia....ol_Dist._v._Doe

those were not LDS because no real saint would make a deal with satan ACLU to end prayer to a God the LDS do not believe in nor worship.

-------------------------------

I believe it is Daddyg who pointed out that some of what is observed and occurs could simply be who feels like the minority. From my experiences growing up, I was not permitted to be friends with people who did bad things, conduct was the issue and not religion. On the other hand non-lds religious folk would have nothing to do with me because of my religion.

[KevinG]

Those "prayers" in the Texas case were used as diatribes against those who were not of the majority religion. In that case I would have agreed with the Mormon, The Catholic or any other person targeted by bigotry masquerading as prayer.

Funny as that seems I'd be comfortable with a Muslim or any other faith giving a public prayer as long as it did not denegrate other faiths.