Joseph F. Smith'S Thoughts On Judas

[ged1650]

Lehi,

I can be as wrong as you or you can be as right as me. Moses 5 tends to back me stronger than you. Have a great day.

[fearlessheart]

I am new here but Ged you are not right here. I am with Lehi on this.

[CV75]

But not knowing that Judas did commit the unpardonable sin; nor that he was a "son of perdition without hope" who will die the second death, nor what knowledge he possessed by which he was able to commit so great a sin, I prefer, until I know better, to take the merciful view that he may be numbered among those for whom the blessed Master prayed, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

If Joseph F. Smith is right, what could this passage mean?

Joseph F. Smith is saying that, until he knows better, he merely prefers to take the merciful view that Judas may be numbered among those for whom the blessed Master prayed, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." He is evidently spending his wherewithal to know better concerning subject matter other than this; to each his own.

Who knows what someone who knows better would prefer?

In general I take '(Matt. 26:20, JST; Matt. 26:24 KJV)" to mean “in retrospect, not at this time and place” rather than go so far as to betray Him. If Joseph F. Smith is right, this is what this passage could mean. But where all sorts of spirits are eligible to come to earth to gain bodies and be tested, and they accept the bounds and habitations the Lord assigns them, someone would have ended up betraying Him, knowingly or not.

[cdowis]

Getting back to Judas and his remorse. There is a view that Judas was convinced that Jesus would not allow himself to die, and would get out of the situation thru his divine power. His remorse was when he realized that Christ was going to suffer at the hands of the Romans and not release himself.

What was a scheme to get some money, without any harm done, became a nightmare with the realization of what he had done.

[Hayds]

I think its impossible to know why Judas did what he did or his motivations. They could have been well intended, but stupid, or they could have been pure evil.

Here is my theory: In my own mind I almost think that JC told Judas to do it and it was all part of the plan. Powerful people already hated Jesus. If Judas hadn't betrayed him, it would only be a matter of time before he was arrested or assassinated. Jesus knew how it had to end and he needed to be in control of when to put that in motion. The time was right, so he orchestrated what needed to be done and Judas helped him. Judas was probably not fully aware of the outcome that Jesus was expecting thus his emotional response of suicide. Then again, maybe his suicide was also part of the plan to spare Judas from the wrath of the disciples and there followers.

[Calm]

If Jesus told him to betray him, it seems very callous not to provide him with enough moral support to resist falling into such despair. I don't see Christ using someone with so little thought of how it would affect him personally.

[Stargazer]

Getting back to Judas and his remorse. There is a view that Judas was convinced that Jesus would not allow himself to die, and would get out of the situation thru his divine power. His remorse was when he realized that Christ was going to suffer at the hands of the Romans and not release himself.

What was a scheme to get some money, without any harm done, became a nightmare with the realization of what he had done.

An alternate view, one voiced by the writer Orscon Scott Card in his script for a New Testament dramatization, was that Judas was deceived by Satan in betraying Jesus, and had the expectation that being handed over to the Sanhedrin would force Jesus to become what Judas actually desired and expected, namely the Messiah who would rise up against Rome and destroy it, thus bringing God's Kingdom on Earth into being. Because Judas did not understand His mission.

And the 30 pieces of silver? Merely a side issue.

And in this scenario, Judas would not be a Son of Perdition.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Stargazer

[Hayds]

If Jesus told him to betray him, it seems very callous not to provide him with enough moral support to resist falling into such despair. I don't see Christ using someone with so little thought of how it would affect him personally.

Its a cruel world and we all have our trials. Jesus himself cried to his Father for some relief and was met with silence. Many faithful and innocent have been thrown into despair and yet were not relieved by calling on God. Christians were wholesale slaughtered by the Romans. Remember the story in the BOM when hundreds of men women and children were burned to death for believing in Jesus and Alma the younger was forced to watch? All of this and more seems callous on God's part, so why wouldn't he be callous in Judas' situation? The scriptures are brimming with examples of the faithful getting the shaft in this mortal existence.

To be fair though, I think Judas' suicide could have been part of the plan. Maybe he was instructed to do so...

[RobertAC]

What of this?

Then Judas, who had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.

And they said unto him, What is that to us? See thou to it; thy sins be upon thee.

And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went, and hanged himself on a tree. And straightway he fell down, and his bowels gushed out, and he died. (Matt. 27:3-6, Joseph Smith Translation.)

What does "repented himself" mean here?

My interpretation of Judas is that he is the reluctantly obedient follower. Jesus knows that he must die. If you accept Gnostic texts, Jesus even hands Judas a sword and commands him to kill him. Judas refuses.

Judas passes the task of killing Jesus to the Romans and the Jewish Priests -- in other words, "the establishment." He reveals Jesus for whom he truly believes him to be, knowing full well that the heresy will lead to Jesus' death.

Judas does this knowing that his own future on this planet is not only physically over, but that his name will forever be viewed as cursed.

Judas' repentence is done as a last act to "get right with God" before he dies.

The mystery is whether Judas is the scoundrel that so many believe him to be, or if he is like the Old Testament Job -- the ever-obedient follower who must do something he detests for the betterment of all. Unlike Job, Judas' position with God is left unknown, and he is never rewarded for his faithfulness in this life. One has to believe in the resurrection in order to believe that Judas will ultimately be vindicated as an obedient follower.

[Rob Osborn]

Judas is a son of perdition. Why do we want to sugar coat acts done by once good people into acceptable actions? Lucifer himself was a great leader who had authority and position. Good men fall. Thats the story.

[Stargazer]

Judas is a son of perdition. Why do we want to sugar coat acts done by once good people into acceptable actions? Lucifer himself was a great leader who had authority and position. Good men fall. Thats the story.

To start with, nobody said Judas's actions were "acceptable" -- just RobertAC's quoting gnostic sources, which are certainly and completely heretical. The only question with respect to the unforgivability of Judas's betrayal is did it constitute "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost", which is the only thing Jesus said in the NT that was unforgivable. I believe that it may not rise to that level. I certainly know that I do not know Judas's heart or the extent of his knowledge of who he was betraying.

From the reactions of the apostles after His crucifixion, none of them expected His resurrection and were very much surprised. That strongly suggests that none of them had the level of knowledge that could qualify them for SoP status. Jesus Himself said that they could not receive the Holy Ghost while he was in mortality, and that His departure was necessary for this to happen. Therefore, in all logicality, none of them could have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost because they had not yet received Him. Including Judas.

But then perhaps you have certain godly knowledge of Judas's eternal status?

Edited January 4, 2013 by Stargazer

[Rob Osborn]

To start with, nobody said Judas's actions were "acceptable" -- just RobertAC's quoting gnostic sources, which are certainly and completely heretical. The only question with respect to the unforgivability of Judas's betrayal is did it constitute "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost", which is the only thing Jesus said in the NT that was unforgivable. I believe that it may not rise to that level. I certainly know that I do not know Judas's heart or the extent of his knowledge of who he was betraying.

From the reactions of the apostles after His crucifixion, none of them expected His resurrection and were very much surprised. That strongly suggests that none of them had the level of knowledge that could qualify them for SoP status. Jesus Himself said that they could not receive the Holy Ghost while he was in mortality, and that His departure was necessary for this to happen. Therefore, in all logicality, none of them could have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost because they had not yet received Him. Including Judas.

But then perhaps you have certain godly knowledge of Judas's eternal status?

A person doesnt have to have the gift of the holy ghost to sin unto death. All they have to have is a witness of who Christ is and then sin against him. Certainly Judas had the sure witness that he knew who Christ was and then sold him for money anyway. Not only does Christ refer to Judas as a SoP in the NT, but also in the Book of Mormon.