Could Missionary Work Without Purse And Script Be Done Today?

[erichard]

“Therefore, let no man among you, for this commandment is unto all the faithful who are called of God in the church unto the ministry, from this hour take purse or scrip, that goeth forth to proclaim this gospel of the kingdom.” --D&C 84:86

This revelation (I suggest the reading of all of D&C 84) was given in September 1832. It seems quite clear:

• The Lord gives a direct commandment
  
• It is to all the faithful called to be missionaries
  
• It is from that hour (1832)
  
• The commandment is that none are to take money or food with them when they go to do missionary work out in the world.
  

Since these instructions are not being lived today by the LDS church, the question arises: why?

The usual answer is that today there are vagrancy laws everywhere, so missionary work cannot be done in this manner.

But as one who has studied the scriptures a lot, this answer does not convince me. D&C 84 also gives these very clear instructions:

89 Whoso receiveth you receiveth me; and the same will feed you, and clothe you, and give you money.

And

92 He that receiveth you not, go away from him alone by yourselves, and cleanse your feet even with water, pure water, whether in heat or in cold, and bear testimony of it unto your Father which is in heaven, and return not again unto that man.

93 And in whatsoever village or city ye enter, do likewise.

The promise in verse 89 makes certain that if people receive the missionaries, then these missionaries will have food and money and clothes, etc. So clearly in that case they will not be vagrants.

The instructions in verse 92 when followed will take the missionary away from any situation where he is not “received”. So again he will not be a vagrant in that place because he will not even be there.

If these instructions were lived today then these instructions in D&C 84 are also important:

103 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, it is expedient that every man who goes forth to proclaim mine everlasting gospel, that inasmuch as they have families, and receive money by gift, that they should send it unto them or make use of it for their benefit, as the Lord shall direct them, for thus it seemeth me good.

104 And let all those who have not families, who receive money, send it up unto the bishop in Zion, or unto the bishop in Ohio, that it may be consecrated for the bringing forth of the revelations and the printing thereof, and for establishing Zion.

This means that instead of money going from the places where the church members are gathered out to the places of missionary work-- instead-- that money would be coming from the places of missionary work to the places where church members are gathered.

That seems like a lot better deal for the church members, by the way, and surely would help the work of the kingdom.

Could missionary work be done this way today? Is it possible that the church has been in error in failing to follow these instructions?

Richard

[Duncan]

I know it was done in Pres. S. Dilworth Young's New England Mission in the late '40's and i'm sure every missionary who was ever broke due to whatever reason! I remember once we didn't get our allotment until like the 3rd of the month, usually it was the 1st and my comp and I had about $1 between us so we bought a Whopper from burger king and split it! have you ever tried to cut a Whopper from BK with those cheap white plastic knives? it's harder then you think!

[Calm]

There are missionaries in areas where the population are living in poverty and don't have enough to eat themselves. Do you think it is appropriate for missionaries who has funds of their own back home to live off of those poor then they are?

From reading the history of the Church, when missionaries had money they took it with them to pay their own way. The commandment to live on faith and let the members and others provide for them seems to me to apply to situations where the missionaries are not capable of paying their own way. The Church does the same for them these days as any missionary that desires to go is allowed to go, funds being made up when they can't pay for themselves.

In the past, if there was no one willing to donate to care for the missionaries or take them in, they were able to work for a few dollars and then move on to a more receptive place. With the laws these days, this is not possible and people are much more suspicious of others to not allow them into their homes to care for them, etc. In many areas there are not enough members to provide such shelter and care.

There is a significant difference between how missionary work is done today than how it was done in the early days of the Church.

Whether or not you think it's done the right way depends, I suspect, on whether or not you believe in continuing revelation. There are many things done in the ancient church in the scriptures that are not done today. Do you believe we are wrong to allow for change this way?

Edited November 19, 2011 by calmoriah

[orion88]

Could missionary work be done this way today? Is it possible that the church has been in error in failing to follow these instructions?

Richard

It's possible this could be done if the travelling missionaries had enough support from

those that sent them.

But spending lots of money to build lavish churches or temples amongst the poor is

not a good sign to the rest of the world.

[erichard]

Hi calmoriah,

Good points. I do believe in continuing revelation. However, the recent revelations I believe in do not address this matter.

If I were to defend the change I would use these words from the 1880 Sunset Arizona revelation given to Elder Woodruff as recorded in his pioneer Journal:

10 Thus saith the LORD unto My servant John Taylor, and My servant Wilford Woodruff, and My servant Orson Pratt, and to all the residue of Mine Apostles;

11 Have you not gone forth in My name,

without purse or script

, and declared the gospel of life and salvation unto this nation, and the nations of the earth, and warned them of the judgments which are to come, as you have been moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost, and the inspiration of the LORD?

12

You have done this, year by year, for a whole generation as men count time

.

13 Therefore, your garments are clean of the blood of this generation, and especially of this nation.

14 Therefore, as I have said in a former commandment, so I the LORD say unto Mine apostles: Go ye alone by yourselves, whether in heat or in cold, and cleanse your feet with water, pure water, it matters not whether it be by the running streams or in your closets, but leave these testimonies before the LORD and the heavenly hosts;

So, since this was done for 40 years and the Lord had them seal up their testimony against the nation, then my argument would be that the instructions fulfilled their purpose and so are no longer in force.

However, I think the Lord should decide if D&C 84:86 is no longer in force, and not me and my logic.

2 Nephi 28 warns:

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

If these words are taken in good faith, then one has to leave open the possiblity that very serious problems exist in the Lord's latter day work. D&C 84:43 warns to give diligent heed to the words of Eternal Life. D&C 84:86 is clearly part of the words of Eternal Life, since they are given in revelation.

Richard,

[erichard]

It's possible this could be done if the travelling missionaries had enough support from

those that sent them.

...

I do realize that getting to the places of missionary work would probably require the missionaries or others paying for the transportation costs. I am not sure what the Lord would say about that today, but I do believe His instructions are always practicable when fully studied and understood.

I do not want to talk about your other comment.

Richard

[erichard]

I know it was done in Pres. S. Dilworth Young's New England Mission in the late '40's and i'm sure every missionary who was ever broke due to whatever reason! ...

Hi Duncan,

When I was in Italy (68-70) I got a letter from a close friend who was on a mission in Finland. He said that during the last summer they had gone out "without purse and script". I thought about this and wrote a letter to my mission President and told him about this, and asked if we could do this in our mission the coming summer. (I was in Rome and it was winter still.)

After a couple of months I finally got a letter back. The mission President had mentioned this to Elder Monson (who was over our mission among other missions) and Elder Monson had asked President Joseph Fielding Smith, and they had determined that this should not be done in our mission. So I accepted that. I ended up getting sick and coming back home before the next Summer arrived.

Richard

[Duncan]

Hi Duncan,

When I was in Italy (68-70) I got a letter from a close friend who was on a mission in Finland. He said that during the last summer they had gone out "without purse and script". I thought about this and wrote a letter to my mission President and told him about this, and asked if we could do this in our mission the coming summer. (I was in Rome and it was winter still.)

After a couple of months I finally got a letter back. The mission President had mentioned this to Elder Monson (who was over our mission among other missions) and Elder Monson had asked President Joseph Fielding Smith, and they had determined that this should not be done in our mission. So I accepted that. I ended up getting sick and coming back home before the next Summer arrived.

Richard

I wonder if the social climate has changed when you could go without purse and script and still manage. Society from before 1945ish or so I guesstimate was more agrarian and so since then has become more urbanized, and people living in cities. I bet though in rural wards in farming areas you could do it, but less then now then before. I knew someone who served in Italy but just a few years after you, doesn't live here anymore though, great story!

Edited November 19, 2011 by Duncan

[CV75]

Could missionary work be done this way today?

It is, as follows;

The directives concerning the work of the ministry in this section are for the apostles (verses 63, 64, 76, 77, 108).

Verse 86 is not for the disciples who support them (for example, those in verses 88-91), but for the apostles who manage the keys and head the ministry under Christ: “Therefore, let no man among you [the apostles], for this commandment is unto all the faithful [apostles] who are called of God in the church unto the ministry [of the apostles], from this hour take purse or scrip, that goeth forth to proclaim this gospel of the kingdom.”

Likewise, verse 103 is to the apostles: “And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, it is expedient that every man [of the apostles] who goes forth to proclaim mine everlasting gospel, that inasmuch as they have families, and receive money by gift, that they should send it unto them or make use of it for their benefit, as the Lord shall direct them, for thus it seemeth me good.”

I think the directives are not just limited to missionary work as the section mentions other work supervised by the apostles (see examples in verses 3, 4, 5, 19, 42, 48, 57, 98, 111, 112). It seems to me that all these areas of duty, and others, comprise the “ministry” to “proclaim.”

Those to whom the apostles assign a calling or task are not under the same strict dictum as they are. It is up to their inspired discretion to put others under the same requirement as they are.

Today, disciples, in the form of Church contributions, still form the sole temporal support of the work of the Apostles.

[KevinG]

My son did it at the urging of the Bishop. Thanks to the generosity of the Saints in my ward and around the world his mission expenses were paid for as they came due.

He had little or no cash like the people around him and he ate in members homes in a poor area of the Phillipines. He did buy a pizza one time with some Christmas money we sent. He and his companion got sick from eating it. I told him that's what he gets for ordering pizza outside of the NY or Chicago metro area.

[Nominee]

It's possible this could be done if the travelling missionaries had enough support from

those that sent them.

But spending lots of money to build lavish churches or temples amongst the poor is

not a good sign to the rest of the world.

Huh? Have you been in a ward building?! We do not even turn the hot water on in the bathrooms of mine to save money, only the kitchen has hot water to wash dishes (by hand as to not waste money on a dishwasher ~ it has been discussed),

[KevinG]

It's possible this could be done if the travelling missionaries had enough support from

those that sent them.

But spending lots of money to build lavish churches or temples amongst the poor is

not a good sign to the rest of the world.

Huh? Have you been in a ward building?! We do not even turn the hot water on in the bathrooms of mine to save money, only the kitchen has hot water to wash dishes (by hand as to not waste money on a dishwasher ~ it has been discussed),

I think he's lost, he wants the "baseless accusation that LDS misspend their funds and neglect the poor" thread.

[erichard]

It is, as follows;

The directives concerning the work of the ministry in this section are for the apostles (verses 63, 64, 76, 77, 108).

...

Hi,

Really? It would seem that the Lord would make it more clear.

Are you suggesting that the LDS Apostles today are supposed to do all their missionary work without purse and script?

Richard

[KevinG]

I am confident the Apostles and Mission Presidents are fully aware of how the Lord wants His work done in 2011, even though there may be some procedural adjustments for our modern economy and political requirements of the countries where we send missionaries.

[Nominee]

I am confident the Apostles and Mission Presidents are fully aware of how the Lord wants His work done in 2011, even though there may be some procedural adjustments for our modern economy and political requirements of the countries where we send missionaries.

I concur.

[Nominee]

I think he's lost, he wants the "baseless accusation that LDS misspend their funds and neglect the poor" thread.

[CV75]

Really? It would seem that the Lord would make it more clear.

Anyone can assert what is clear or not, so I'm not sure what else can be said about that.

Are you suggesting that the LDS Apostles today are supposed to do all their missionary work without purse and script?

Yes. In line with D&C 84:76-91, they are materially and spiritually sustained and supported day to day by the disciples of Christ. Verse 89 very explicitly says the disciples will give them money and this is how they will get by.

The whole idea of traveling without purse or scrip is to take no thought for the morrow for laboring for their own material well-being, or for what they shall eat, or what they shall drink, or wherewithal they shall be clothed—the disciples take care of these matters for them, and sometimes even God Himself.

This is in preparation for taking no thought beforehand what they shall say; but to rely on the words of life they have treasured up in their minds continually, for the Spirit shall give them what to say in the very hour to meet the needs of those they serve. They are to take much thought and so labor for their own spiritual well-being.

This is a type for the protection they can expect, wherein the Lord will go before their face, be on their right hand and on their left, and His Spirit shall be in their hearts, and His angels round about them, to bear them up. And again, that the disciples will feed them, and clothe them, and give them money. We do this for them through our tithe and other contributions and when we host them when they are away from home.

Verses 103-110 reiterate these ideas, and point out that those of the head and those of the feet all labor in their own calling.

So the LDS Apostles and those they call do go forth according their scope of stewardship, materially and spiritually sustained and supported day to day by the disciples of Christ as well as by the Lord.

[CV75]

duplicate removed

Edited November 20, 2011 by CV75

[erichard]

...

Yes. In line with D&C 84:76-91, they are materially and spiritually sustained and supported day to day by the disciples of Christ. Verse 89 very explicitly says the disciples will give them money and this is how they will get by.

...

This is in preparation for taking no thought beforehand what they shall say; but to rely on the words of life they have treasured up in their minds continually, for the Spirit shall give them what to say in the very hour to meet the needs of those they serve. They are to take much thought and so labor for their own spiritual well-being.

...

...

Hi,

D&C 28, given in July 1830 (before Apostles were called in the church) also teaches this principle:

18 And thou shalt take

no purse nor scrip

, neither staves, neither two coats, for the church shall give unto thee in the very hour what thou needest for food and for raiment, and for shoes and for money, and for scrip.

19 For thou art called to prune my vineyard with a mighty pruning, yea, even for the last time; yea, and also

all

those whom thou hast ordained

, and

they

shall do even

according to this pattern

.

If you read the places in the Journal of Discourses where the sermon talks about going out "without purse or script" you will find that none of them support the idea that this principle only applied to the Apostles.

D&C 84:86 does not mention that it only applies to the Apostles. You are "adding" to the verse by trying to make it say that.

Are you also aware that when the Apostles, or anyone, gives a discourse in General Conference the discourse has to be written out and approved before they give it? And that they give it with teleprompters? I am not judging when I say this, just stating fact. It is hard to see how that is the same thing as the instructions in 84:85 that you mention.

Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say; but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life, and it shall be given you

in the very hour

that portion that shall be meted unto every man.

I will, however, accept your thoughts as one possible explanation of my question. Thanks.

Richard

Edited November 20, 2011 by erichard

[Cobalt-70]

The directives concerning the work of the ministry in this section are for the apostles (verses 63, 64, 76, 77, 108).

Verse 86 is not for the disciples who support them (for example, those in verses 88-91), but for the apostles who manage the keys and head the ministry under Christ: “Therefore, let no man among you [the apostles], for this commandment is unto all the faithful [apostles] who are called of God in the church unto the ministry [of the apostles], from this hour take purse or scrip, that goeth forth to proclaim this gospel of the kingdom.”

Likewise, verse 103 is to the apostles: “And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, it is expedient that every man [of the apostles] who goes forth to proclaim mine everlasting gospel, that inasmuch as they have families, and receive money by gift, that they should send it unto them or make use of it for their benefit, as the Lord shall direct them, for thus it seemeth me good.”

I think the directives are not just limited to missionary work as the section mentions other work supervised by the apostles (see examples in verses 3, 4, 5, 19, 42, 48, 57, 98, 111, 112). It seems to me that all these areas of duty, and others, comprise the “ministry” to “proclaim.”

Those to whom the apostles assign a calling or task are not under the same strict dictum as they are. It is up to their inspired discretion to put others under the same requirement as they are.

Respectfully, I think there are a few problems with this analysis:

1. In 1832, the word "apostle" was synonymous with the word "elder," and an elder or apostle was simply a missionary. The Quorum of Twelve was not formed until 1835, years after this revelation.

2. It seems, from your reasoning, that you think that the Quorum of the Twelve should be going about "without purse or scrip," but the apostles are actually paid by the church. But I don't think going without purse or scrip is even feasible as applied to the modern Twelve, because the Twelve nowadays are more like a board of directors of a corporation, than like super-missionaries as they were in the lifetime of Joseph Smith.

3. Going "without purse or scrip" in the early days, circa 1832, meant that you passed around a hat at the end of your sermons to collect donations. According to historical records, this is what they actually did. But the very idea of "without purse or scrip" is a bit antithetical to the passages in the Book of Mormon that say priests should have jobs and not be supported by the people they teach. There has always been a bit of contradiction, though, because the general authorities are paid, and well into the 20th century, the Bishop and the ward clerk both used to have right to take a small percentage of collected tithing revenues for themselves.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[CV75]

D&C 84:86 does not mention that it only applies to the Apostles. You are "adding" to the verse by trying to make it say that.

I am adding “apostle” in brackets to emphasize that the revelation was given to the leadership of the Church (the Lord was addressing Joseph Smith and those to whom the keys have been given). They in turn can instruct the rest of body as they see fit. Of course a saint by inspiration may apply these scriptures to himself as the Lord sees fit to give him such.

Are you also aware that when the Apostles, or anyone, gives a discourse in General Conference the discourse has to be written out and approved before they give it? And that they give it with teleprompters? I am not judging when I say this, just stating fact. It is hard to see how that is the same thing as the instructions in 84:85 that you mention.

D&C 84 does not prohibit a Church leader from giving a prepared talk. In fact, preparing and delivering such talks seems to be a great way to treasure up the words of life, and the spirit attends them in these circumstances as well in more spontaneous, extemporaneous settings. I would count prepared talks as preparation time.

[erichard]

... According to historical records, this is what they actually did. But the very idea of "without purse or scrip" is a bit antithetical to the passages in the Book of Mormon that say priests should have jobs and not be supported by the people they teach. ...

Hi Cobalt,

You made a good point or two.

However, on this last one I believe there is a clear distinction between the local ministers and those that travel to other places as missionaries. The Book of Mormon is talking about priests that are local ministers with a flock of believers, not missionaries among non-believers.

Mormon bishops of local congregations who function as Bishop part time are not paid, but must have non-church employment. That is similar to the priests mentioned in the BoM. D&C 51 however says this about Bishops over United Orders:

14 And let him also reserve unto himself for his own wants, and for the wants of his family, as he shall be employed in doing this business.

If a Bishop is over a United Order full time, how could he survive without being supported by the United Order? And besides, the D&C nowhere teaches that Bishops are to be spiritual leaders-- they are to be over temporal matters only.

D&C 84:86 and 28:18 are talking about missionaries. As you point out both these Sections were given before the church had Apostles. However, since eventually missionary work was headed by the Apostles, there is some basis to what CV is saying.

Richard

[CV75]

Respectfully, I think there are a few problems with this analysis:

1. In 1832, the word "apostle" was synonymous with the word "elder," and an elder or apostle was simply a missionary. The Quorum of Twelve was not formed until 1835, years after this revelation.

2. It seems, from your reasoning, that you think that the Quorum of the Twelve should be going about "without purse or scrip," but the apostles are actually paid by the church. But I don't think going without purse or scrip is even feasible as applied to the modern Twelve, because the Twelve nowadays are more like a board of directors of a corporation, than like super-missionaries as they were in the lifetime of Joseph Smith.

3. Going "without purse or scrip" in the early days, circa 1832, meant that you passed around a hat at the end of your sermons to collect donations. According to historical records, this is what they actually did. But the very idea of "without purse or scrip" is a bit antithetical to the passages in the Book of Mormon that say priests should have jobs and not be supported by the people they teach. There has always been a bit of contradiction, though, because the general authorities are paid, and well into the 20th century, the Bishop and the ward clerk both used to have right to take a small percentage of collected tithing revenues for themselves.

1. The analysis only considers the future application of what was revealed to Joseph and the leaders at the time of D&C 84 in order to address the OP issue with modern Church leaders.

2. I explained in other posts how our material support by the disciples constitutes their going without purse or scrip; how the “ministry” and “proclaiming” refer to more than what we commonly consider missionary work today; and how the Twelve, even today, are engaged in such (which includes missionary work according to their office and calling).

3. Passing around a hat is a great practice in the right time and place; now collecting funds is accomplished through more formal (and transparent!) means. This relieves the Lord’s servants from taking thought for their food, clothing, shelter, etc. while they travel (also addressed in other posts). I think the Book of Mormon references to priests supporting themselves needs to be looked at a bit more thoroughly (for example, Mosiah 18:28 and 27:5). I don’t see such things as contradictions so much as different circumstances or even dispensations (Mosiah 18:27-30). But one could even say that, due to their age and activity level, our modern Apostles would quickly be considered relatively sick, needy and in want without the support of the saints.

[Cobalt-70]

However, on this last one I believe there is a clear distinction between the local ministers and those that travel to other places as missionaries. The Book of Mormon is talking about priests that are local ministers with a flock of believers, not missionaries among non-believers.

...

D&C 84:86 and 28:18 are talking about missionaries. As you point out both these Sections were given before the church had Apostles. However, since eventually missionary work was headed by the Apostles, there is some basis to what CV is saying.

Could be. I could see there being such a distinction. Standing ministers may not ask for donations from their flock, but missionaries, who must ask for donations from those they teach.

However, if this represents Mormon doctrine, it doesn't seem very satisfying. It represents a melding of two different instincts: the early Restorationist prohibitions against making money by being a preacher (called "priestcraft" in the Book of Mormon), and the New Testament idea, introduced by Jesus, that the missionary is too busy in the work of the Kingdom to take thought for working in furtherance of his own well-being, and must rely solely upon donations from others.

This philosophical conflict may be the reason why the LDS Church has never really followed either model. Certian standing LDS preachers have almost always been paid by their flock, and it is only relatively recently that bishops didn't take a cut of collected tithing funds. General authorities still are paid. Yet missionaries are expected to support themselves through savings, and not, if at all possible, to rely on donations of others.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[erichard]

...

But spending lots of money ... amongst the poor is not a good sign to the rest of the world.

The LDS church show on their website to have 52,483 missionaries.

At approx $450 per month, that means that $23,617,350 per month is going from "Zion to Babylon". I would bet that money going to poor places would be welcomed.

But wait. I realize it is not quite like that, because today the LDS do not have places of "gathering apart" set up, rather anywhere you live is now called a place of gathering.

I have to admit that doing missionary work without purse and scrip makes the most sense when places of refuge are set up for the Saints to gather to-- apart from those who reject the latter-day work.

Still, all that money comes from those who are already members. If it is an error for all missionaries to not be living by the D&C 84 instructions I quoted, then it is a $23,617,350 per month error at least. Since the calamities are coming, and the Saints are warned to get ready for the calamities, I suspect they could use this money for other things.

Richard