Saints Alive Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) The Church was founded on two principles; restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and Continuing Modern revelation. Can we point to a time in church history where the restoration was complete and all future revelation was modern or new doctrine? Do the two overlap? Which doctrines are restorations, and which are modern revelations. For example: Water for sacrament, modern revelation. The sealing ordinance, restoration. Any other examples, thoughts, or ideas? Edited November 18, 2011 by Saints Alive
thesometimesaint Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 The Restoration will not be complete until we know everything that God wants us to know.
ERayR Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) The Church was founded on two principles; restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and Continuing Modern revelation. Can we point to a time in church history where the restoration was complete and all future revelation was modern or new doctrine? Do the two overlap? Which doctrines are restorations, and which are modern revelations. For example: Water for sacrament, modern revelation. The sealing ordinance, restoration. Any other examples, thoughts, or ideas?I do not think there is a bright line of demarcation. For instance your water instead of wine example I think there is some evidence that water was also used anciently. Edited November 18, 2011 by ERayR
Saints Alive Posted November 18, 2011 Author Posted November 18, 2011 The Restoration will not be complete until we know everything that God wants us to know.That is a rather vague and incongruous response. Correct me if I am wrong but, in order for something to be part of the restoration or restored in other words, it had to have been established at one point in time. Are you suggesting that there are things or doctrines that were established before the great apostasy that are not yet on the earth?
LeSellers Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 That is a rather vague and incongruous response. Correct me if I am wrong but, in order for something to be part of the restoration or restored in other words, it had to have been established at one point in time. Are you suggesting that there are things or doctrines that were established before the great apostasy that are not yet on the earth?Adam spoke directly with God in Eden. Enoch's city was translated.We have no idea just how much intelligence (knowledge, information) God revealed to them.When all of that is restored, perhaps the Restoration will be complete.Lehi
Saints Alive Posted November 18, 2011 Author Posted November 18, 2011 I do not tghink there is a bright line of demarcation. For instance your water instead of wine example I think there is some evidence that water was also used anciently.So you believe the two overlap? Are there any examples of things that are clearly restoration or clearly modern revelation? How about the word of wisdom? it is clear that Jesus drank wine (the fermented alcoholic version) is it safe to say that the WofW is modern revelation?
thesometimesaint Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 As it is the work, glory, and purpose of God to bring the pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man. The Restoration is more than just this earth before, during, or even after the Great Apostasy.
Saints Alive Posted November 18, 2011 Author Posted November 18, 2011 Adam spoke directly with God in Eden. Enoch's city was translated.We have no idea just how much intelligence (knowledge, information) God revealed to them.When all of that is restored, perhaps the Restoration will be complete.LehiSo you believe that there is an incomplete restoration?
Saints Alive Posted November 18, 2011 Author Posted November 18, 2011 As it is the work, glory, and purpose of God to bring the pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man. The Restoration is more than just this earth before, during, or even after the Great Apostasy.In order for it to be a restoration, something had to be lost.I suppose you could say that immortality and eternal life was lost at the fall of adam. if that is the case, it was restored at the saviors resurection because we know all men who ever lived on earth will be resurected and recieve etyernal life.
thesometimesaint Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 Lehi:That and more. As men are now Gods in embryo, when we have become fully like God, then the Restoration will be done.
thesometimesaint Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 Saints Alive.The Restoration is an ongoing process. Not an event.Yes Christ restored the Keys, but it is up to us to turn those Keys.
LeSellers Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) So you believe that there is an incomplete restoration?We believe all that God has revealed all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.Yes, I believe that the Restoration is not yet complete. Read Doc&Cov 13 for one example. The prophecy John made there has not come to pass yet. The Sons of Levi and their offerings are not yet part of the restored Gospel.All the necessary things (Priesthood keys, Temple ordinances, basic Gospel doctrines) for us are in place. However, God will have a righteous people. We are not there yet, and I believe that until we get to the point the we are prepared for the rest, He will not over burden us with things we would reject. Joseph lived with this fear, and Brigham Young may have stepped over the line when he spoke of things that XIX Saints we unprepared for. Later prophets had to regather the pearls Brother Brigham may have cast untimely.Let's assume for a second or two that the Restoration is not complete. Who would object to more knowledge from God, knowledge He had already vouchsafed to the ancient Saints, but which has not been, to date, revealed to us today? Whether I am ready for it or not might depend on what it was. But I am sure that many among the Saints would follow David Whitmer and declare the prophet a fallen prophet because that revelation didn't coincide with his notions of how things ought to be.Lehi Edited November 21, 2011 by LeSellers
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 The Restoration will not be complete until we know everything that God wants us to know.When we are ready to know it.
The Nehor Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 We are still the early latter-day saints. Much still must come before we can be made perfect. So yes, the restoration is incomplete.
Saints Alive Posted November 18, 2011 Author Posted November 18, 2011 Saints Alive.The Restoration is an ongoing process. Not an event.Yes Christ restored the Keys, but it is up to us to turn those Keys. I dont disagree but at some point, by definition, we must be at a place we once were. We also believe in eternal progression, so at some point we must surpass the point we are restored to.All that is beyond the scope of my OP. I guess what i am driving at is some kind of division between doctrine that was once taught and is now restored and doctrine that has not been on the earth before.
Saints Alive Posted November 18, 2011 Author Posted November 18, 2011 We are still the early latter-day saints. Much still must come before we can be made perfect. So yes, the restoration is incomplete.My op was more about the restoration of the church but, if the restoration refers to our personal (or collective for that matter) salvation, at what point were we perfect?
CV75 Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 The Church was founded on two principles; restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and Continuing Modern revelation. Can we point to a time in church history where the restoration was complete and all future revelation was modern or new doctrine? Do the two overlap? Which doctrines are restorations, and which are modern revelations. For example: Water for sacrament, modern revelation. The sealing ordinance, restoration. Any other examples, thoughts, or ideas?I think restoration is dependent on modern revelation. The Restoration began with Joseph Smith's First Vision, and everything that has been restored has been the result of that and subsequent revelations.Not all modern revelation brings about a restoration. For example, the Lord's instructions given to and the inspired decisions made by the First Presidency and Twelve to build temples or send aid.I understand that the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times to yet bring in new as well as restored principles and practices (such as the building of the New Jerusalem, its union with Zion, meeting at Adam-ondi-Ahman, Millennial government), also dependent on revelation.Not all things have yet been restored, such as the sons of Levi offering the offering to the Lord in righteousness. But the Church has been restored enough to get the stone rolling without stopping. 1
thesometimesaint Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 Saints Alive:I don't see a point of demarcation at least in this life. Maybe, in theory, after we have become like God, and know everything that God wants us to know at that time. He may have more Revelation for us, but that is at best a theoretical discussion.
ERayR Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 So you believe the two overlap? Are there any examples of things that are clearly restoration or clearly modern revelation?How about the word of wisdom? it is clear that Jesus drank wine (the fermented alcoholic version) is it safe to say that the WofW is modern revelation?Yet God gave the Isrealites dietary laws. IMNSHO a good part of the restoration is concepts and not verbatim. I am also certain we do not know everything about former dispensations therfore no hard and fast this is modern revelation only can be declared.
The Nehor Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 My op was more about the restoration of the church but, if the restoration refers to our personal (or collective for that matter) salvation, at what point were we perfect?That is not what I was saying. It is revelation that perfects people. The Restoration was a huge leap forward in the process of saving souls. We have some knowledge and there are many among us who know things not publicly declared. In time they will be declared until the day comes that God reveals all things. The Restoration will be complete then.
ERayR Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 Lehi:That and more. As men are now Gods in embryo, when we have become fully like God, then the Restoration will be done.What is forgotten by many is that man was in the presence of God and birth is a fall. The process of getting back to there is in itself a restoration.
Saints Alive Posted November 21, 2011 Author Posted November 21, 2011 I am getting the feeling that the question is being evaded (either intentionally or unintentionally). There are a lot of interesting "theories" about what the restoration is. Most of what has been suggested as a definition for the restoration is either extremely esoteric at best, or disingenuous at worst. Let’s go to lds.org to see how the restoration is defined: http://lds.org/study/topics/restoration-of-the-gospel?lang=eng We learn two things: the fullness of the gospel was on the earth at Christ’s time, and; the fullness of the gospel is "the teachings and ordinances necessary for salvation" Thus I will say restoration ends with the establishment of ordinances necessary for salvation. (http://lds.org/study/topics/salvation?lang=eng) The problem is that there are six different meanings for salvation: Salvation from physical death, salvation from sin, being "born again," salvation from ignorance(Those who have a knowledge of God the Father, Jesus Christ, the purpose of life, the plan of salvation, and their eternal potential are saved from this condition.), salvation from the second death (doesn't happen until the final judgment and, Almost every person who has ever lived on the earth is assured salvation from the second death), and Eternal Life, or Exaltation. Depending on which definition of salvation you use (or if you combine them all) the restoration was complete either at the first vision (salvation from ignorance) or when the sealing keys were restored to the earth. this makes a large number of things modern revelation. Pornography, the word of wisdom, avoiding r rated movies, the call of all worthy men to serve a mission, etc.
thesometimesaint Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Saints Alive:Only in a limited sense would I agree with http://lds.org/study...gospel?lang=engIt is true that Priesthood authority was restored to Joseph Smith. However that is only a small part of The Restoration.
Saints Alive Posted November 21, 2011 Author Posted November 21, 2011 Then what is the rest of it? I don't think you can attach "all God knows, all he has planned for our eternal life" to the restoration without it becominging something different.The restoration is making the gospel available to all not everyone accepting it, that would violate free agency.
thesometimesaint Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Saints Alive:I don't see how it could be anything less that everything that God knows. IE; The perfecting of the Saints, to become like God.Regardless, above a certain basic level of what we know, we have had, and will always have Agency. I doubt a rock has much knowledge or Agency. The Devils have knowledge. However they choose to use that knowledge, and Agency, for our destruction. To become miserable like unto themselves.Also God himself has knowledge. He uses that knowledge for the Immortaity and Eternal Life of us.
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