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Muslims Say Crosses At Catholic University Violate “Human Rights”


Anijen

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See story here

I think it would not hurt to provide a room with out Christian icons for them. I think it would actually be a Christian thing to do.

Then I started reading the comments and saw that I am in the minority. It made me wonder am I in the minority here? Some of the comments were;

Were these students unaware that this is a catholic university? If they knew that, then they do not have a single thing to gripe about. If they were surprised to find themselves attending a catholic university, then they obviously are non-collage material and should leave. In either event, put a sock in it and stop being thin-skinned crybabies!
Um, It's a Catholic University. Did they not read the sign before enrolling? Just Saying. It's like going to a strip club and being offended by nudity :-)
You said that extremely well John J. Actually, not just muslims, but when Illegals come here and refuse to learn the language or whats expected of them in America, they are also trying to change America to be like mexico.
So how are Christian students at Al Azhar treated? What kind of chapels do they get?
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If the University accepts other students of other religions it would be kind of them to provide facilities for them to worship in unless it somehow violates their religious conscience. If it does or for any other reason they decide not to provide faciilities, then it needs to be made clear that there will be no compromise ahead of time allowing those students of other faiths to make the decision whether they are willing to be restricted in this way or not.

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After what I've seen going on in Egypt recently, I would tell them to either suck it up or face expulsion. This is a private university- they can set the standards any which way they want to. :angry:

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If the University accepts other students of other religions it would be kind of them to provide facilities for them to worship in unless it somehow violates their religious conscience. If it does or for any other reason they decide not to provide faciilities, then it needs to be made clear that there will be no compromise ahead of time allowing those students of other faiths to make the decision whether they are willing to be restricted in this way or not.

Yes it would be kind of them to do so. That being said, it is a Catholic University and the Muslim students, the LDS students or any other group have no right to demand they be provided with these facilities. If it is like most other universities the students education is already being heavily subsidized. The lack of gratitude is a plague on our society today.

If they are offended by the crosses they should go where the crosses are not.

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prlog.com

The Office of Human Rights has given CUA President John Garvey until October 27th to provide a written response to new allegations that he and CUA illegally discriminated against Muslim students by denying them equal access to the benefits CUA provides to other student groups.

The Office also wants him to reply to suggestions that he may have lied to cover up his true motive. The allegation is that "an attempt was made to cover up the animus in such a decision against Muslim students, based solely upon their religion, by falsely claiming that the reason for the discrimination was that CUA 'should [not] be sponsoring an organization that is not Catholic,' whereas the University does in fact have a student organization for Jewish students."

This lawsuit is based upon local "D.C" law and not Federal Law. At first glance, this appears to be another situation wherein a "private" institution did not guard itself from a Human Rights Law or similar law. I would not be surprised to learn that the University "could be" exempt from the provisions of the DC law, but instead choose to receive some benefit paying no mind to its obligation for the benefit.

Edit: Just read the DC Human Rights law, religious educational schools are exempt from the provision of the law. However, I think the school has gotten itself into trouble by permitting one non-Catholic group but not another.

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prlog.com

This lawsuit is based upon local "D.C" law and not Federal Law. At first glance, this appears to be another situation wherein a "private" institution did not guard itself from a Human Rights Law or similar law. I would not be surprised to learn that the University "could be" exempt from the provisions of the DC law, but instead choose to receive some benefit paying no mind to its obligation for the benefit.

Very well could be. Before grabbing dollars look where the strings go. Even so they are claiming benefits are given other organizations that are being denyed to them. Does this mean some other rorganizations are getting rooms free of Catholic ornamentation?

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Yes it would be kind of them to do so. That being said, it is a Catholic University and the Muslim students, the LDS students or any other group have no right to demand they be provided with these facilities. If it is like most other universities the students education is already being heavily subsidized. The lack of gratitude is a plague on our society today.

If they are offended by the crosses they should go where the crosses are not.

Agreed.
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I wonder what is to stop the Muslims from covering up the offending ornaments and then remove the coverings when they leave.

On the website of the lawyer who filed the suit, he is referred too as "The Osama Binladen of Torts"

They are likely high enough and solidly attached enough to avoid being accidentally damaged by careless students and it might not be practical for curtains to be attached to walls (or acceptable to the school) to temporarily cover them, but some tall folding screens that could be kept in a closet and then pulled out as needed to make a 'private' acceptable enclosure could even be decorated in fabrics or painted with appropriate Muslim decoration.

What is the current Catholic view on Jews and their faith? Is it believed that they need to convert and be baptized? Are they equivalent to Muslims in the sense of their current state of salvation? Is there a special dispensation for Jews in Catholic belief?

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Hi calmoriah.

There is a small, but vocal school within the Catholic Church that proposes that Jews need not convert. I do not see any possibility that this view can be reconciled with what the Church has always taught. It is a total novelty, and suspiciously, springs from the congregation established for dialogue with the Jews. Cardinal Kasper, a German Catholic prelate who recently retired, is/was the most vocal and visible proponent of this untenable proposition. It is apparent to me that Germans still carry a heavy weight of guilt that we probably can't appreciate because of the Nazi persecutions of the Jews. But this is way over the top in the other direction. You go straight to heaven with no baptism, and no recognition of God's Son just for being a Jew? What was Pentecost about if Jews do not need to convert and be baptized like everybody else? I think you know that I use the word ridiculous sparingly. I think it applies in this case and that this school of thought can never hope to gain any further support, except perhaps for the sad exhibition of those who are trying to make up for the crimes of their forefathers.

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As for whether it would be more Christian to allow the Muslims to remove Catholic symbols in a Catholic institution, I think not. Love does not water down the truth for the sake of being accomodating. If Islam is true, will these Muslims who want to pray but say they can't because of crosses in a room, be held accountable by God for the very predictable refusal of people of another faith to retain their own sacred symbols in their own buildings? It might be merely nice to remove the symbols, but it would not in my opinion, send the right message, nor would it be loving our neighbour.

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Hi calmoriah.

There is a small, but vocal school within the Catholic Church that proposes that Jews need not convert. I do not see any possibility that this view can be reconciled with what the Church has always taught. It is a total novelty, and suspiciously, springs from the congregation established for dialogue with the Jews. Cardinal Kasper, a German Catholic prelate who recently retired, is/was the most vocal and visible proponent of this untenable proposition. It is apparent to me that Germans still carry a heavy weight of guilt that we probably can't appreciate because of the Nazi persecutions of the Jews. But this is way over the top in the other direction. You go straight to heaven with no baptism, and no recognition of God's Son just for being a Jew? What was Pentecost about if Jews do not need to convert and be baptized like everybody else? I think you know that I use the word ridiculous sparingly. I think it applies in this case and that this school of thought can never hope to gain any further support, except perhaps for the sad exhibition of those who are trying to make up for the crimes of their forefathers.

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As for whether it would be more Christian to allow the Muslims to remove Catholic symbols in a Catholic institution, I think not. Love does not water down the truth for the sake of being accomodating. If Islam is true, will these Muslims who want to pray but say they can't because of crosses in a room, be held accountable by God for the very predictable refusal of people of another faith to retain their own sacred symbols in their own buildings? It might be merely nice to remove the symbols, but it would not in my opinion, send the right message, nor would it be loving our neighbour.

Agreed. Well said.

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I am not advocating taking anything down, not a single cross. I was just wondering if there was a room that had none, one that could be used. I believe that some groups have hidden agendas, it might not be a spiritual one but another such as cash, or just trying to weaken the system. I am not saying this group is one (I hope not), but if all they require is a room without a cross I would think that there probably is a room without a cross somewhere on campus.

I am all for private universities setting their own rules and it should be they who make the rules and not the other way around.

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I was thinking the same thing as Anijen, I hadn't read the article before I responded. I don't think it would be appropriate to remove anything, if it was seen as appropriate perhaps allowing the Muslim students to have a room without crosses assigned ahead of time or perhaps a room with a closet for screens the students provide and are responsible for to make a room with in a room as needed.

However, just like I would expect nonLDS to abide by the rules of BYU and that it would be inappropriate for them to call foul after agreeing to such rules, if Muslims choose to go to a catholic school they should abide by the rules of that school or go elsewhere. It should be the school's choice what to provide or not.

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It appeArs they have requested a room without catholic symbols. The thorn in this case is apparent religious discrimination, as the uni has a jewish student group.

The topic of a Jewish student group is apples and oranges... There is not an objection for a Muslim student group, and the Jewish group is not asking for the University to take down crosses.

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I thought they had refused the application to form a Muslim student group?

Addon: just reread the article and the allegations and noticed he is careful to give the impression that somehow the Jewish student group is getting something the Muslims are not...yet there is nothing identified as different, which gave the impression on the first reading to me that the school had sponsored the Jewish group but not the Muslim when the reality apparently is simply that the school did not construct a special place devoid of crosses for Muslim students. There is no evidence given that the university supplied a similar venue to Jewish students or anything else that demonstrated a difference in the level of support.

The claim that this was basedon malice is a stretch. It could be based on many things including indifference and exactly what they claimed it was based on.

Considering the lawyer opens his argument with the totally irrelevant and IMO malicious comment about the criminal charges about covering up abuse and then goes on to throw in an accusation that women are being discriminated against because they can't choose for their dorm due to segregation of the sexes...completely ignoring that the men are in the same boat as I would not be the least bit surprised if a number of them wanted to reside in the women's dorms...it seems that his case is rather weak which he states himself, iirc, in saying the university has a legal right to act as they did...he is only claiming that they chose to act otherwise in the case of the Jewish group with no evidence of how they acted differently that I can recall.

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I was thinking the same thing as Anijen, I hadn't read the article before I responded. I don't think it would be appropriate to remove anything, if it was seen as appropriate perhaps allowing the Muslim students to have a room without crosses assigned ahead of time or perhaps a room with a closet for screens the students provide and are responsible for to make a room with in a room as needed.

However, just like I would expect nonLDS to abide by the rules of BYU and that it would be inappropriate for them to call foul after agreeing to such rules, if Muslims choose to go to a catholic school they should abide by the rules of that school or go elsewhere. It should be the school's choice what to provide or not.

People will continue to take and demand until others put a stop to it!

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The topic of a Jewish student group is apples and oranges... There is not an objection for a Muslim student group, and the Jewish group is not asking for the University to take down crosses.

Not sure I understand your point. The school is claiming it shouldn't sponsor a mulsim group but it does allow/sponsor a jewish group.

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Not sure I understand your point. The school is claiming it shouldn't sponsor a mulsim group but it does allow/sponsor a jewish group.

Frank, I think he is saying they don't mind having a muslim group... they just aren't going to take crosses down for them =P.

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Frank, I think he is saying they don't mind having a muslim group... they just aren't going to take crosses down for them =P.

Yes, this is my point, thank you Tao. I do not think they need to take any crosses down. A room without crosses should work fine. This beings a private school they knew this before applying I do not see how they need to change any policy. Kind of like an alcoholic walking into a bar and demanding no more alcoholic drinks., well perhaps not the best analogy...

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CUA does not have non-catholic faith based groups. CUA Law shcool has a Jewish student group, and arab student group. So I suppose the issue is a Jewish group is faith base but an Arab group is not - as not all Arabs are Muslim. So a Muslim group would be faith based just like the Jewish group is.

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CUA does not have non-catholic faith based groups. CUA Law shcool has a Jewish student group, and arab student group. So I suppose the issue is a Jewish group is faith base but an Arab group is not - as not all Arabs are Muslim. So a Muslim group would be faith based just like the Jewish group is.

Perhaps it is a Jewish-heritage group, therefore intended to relate to the culture, the religion being not the point. =P

Regardless, this wasn't the point of Anijen's post, I think. Anijen was talking about the removal of crosses and such.

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