Joseph Smith And Book Of Mormon History Placement.

[Anakin7]

Recently A Baptist Minister friend of mine stated to me that Joseph Smith J.r made several statements that the Book of Mormon history occured in North America which goes against Book of Mormon scholarship today that is presented where events happened [ Central/South America] any validity to this ?. Thanks in advance.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[ldsfaqs]

Nope.... The only truth to his statement is the using of some truth to tell a great lie just as anti-mormons always do.

It is true that Joseph initially believed BOM events took place in North America, but the last part of his life he believed events took place either on the entire continent North & South America and/or in South America.

There are several websites which go into the facts that Joseph believed things took place primarily in South America. FAIR I think has some, and also http://www.bmaf.org

Enjoy.

[Calm]

Recently A Baptist Minister friend of mine stated to me that Joseph Smith J.r made several statements that the Book of Mormon history occured in North America which goes against Book of Mormon scholarship today that is presented where events happened [ Central/South America] any validity to it?

FAIR is collecting all statements made by church leaders in regard BOM geography here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Statements

If anyone has one that they don't see up on the site FAIR would appreciate you sending it in. Pretty good selection already though.

At the BMAF site referenced above, Tyler Livingston has an article you might find useful:

http://www.bmaf.org/node/381

Edited October 25, 2011 by calmoriah

[Anakin7]

Thank you for the references so far, anyone else ?.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Kevin Christensen]

The back of the question depends on expectations about what prophets know. It's easy to assume that "surely a prophet would" know whatever or would or would not do this or that.

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/prophettestsfv5.pdf

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Questing Beast]

I know that Joseph Smith was "quoted" by others on BofM geography statements. The two I recall clearly are that the Jaredites came into the Americas via the St Lawrence river. And that the Lehites landed on the west coast of S. America; the longitude even being approximately provided. I see Joseph Smith's original understanding being that the entire Western Hemisphere was the location for the BofM, with the obvious "narrow neck of land" being the Isthmus of Panama. Only after he discovered, or had it brought to his awareness, that the text itself makes such a huge siting for events impossible, did he begin to modify his statements to concentrate more on S. America. I am not aware that he ever advocated for a MesoAmerican setting....

[cinepro]

Recently A Baptist Minister friend of mine stated to me that Joseph Smith J.r made several statements that the Book of Mormon history occured in North America which goes against Book of Mormon scholarship today that is presented where events happened [ Central/South America] any validity to this ?. Thanks in advance.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

He may have been thinking of the Wentworth Letter:

I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country [America] and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people, was [also] made known unto me; I was also told where were deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgment of the records of the ancient prophets that had existed on this continent.

---------------------------------------------------

In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country.

It could certainly be understood that Joseph was referring to North America when he wrote that.

Edited October 25, 2011 by cinepro

[livy111us]

Joseph Smith never subscribed to *any* limited geography theory. He seems to have placed the BOM all over North, Central, and South America. starting in the early 1830's, he mostly placed it in North America, but not always. After getting a hold of Stephens and Catherwoods book he put most of his focus in Mesoamerica. Yet he still spoke about events happening in North America, though not quite as often. He never discounted previous geography statements and seemed to expand/expound his view as he learned about possible correlations between tribes/civilizations and BOM people. Depending on what material he was reading (Josiah Priest, Stephens/Catherwood, random discoveries printed in the newspaper) would depend on what area he would be speaking about *at that time*. No single LGT can claim that JS agreed with only them. His geography seemed to encompass the entire North and South American continents. That is why it drives me crazy when geography theorists say that JS taught their theory. Of course he did! He also taught every other geography theory that happened in this hemisphere.

This article should give you an idea of what Joseph Smith was teaching:

http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/book-of-mormon-geography-in-joseph-smiths-day/

Here is a chart in the article of where he and others placed it during his lifetime and where The BOM was placed:

Mesoamerica.......N. America.......S. America........Hemispheric

1830 0-------------------0----------------0----------------1

1831 0-------------------1----------------0----------------0

1832 1-------------------1----------------0----------------2

1833 1-------------------1----------------0----------------0

1834 0-------------------2----------------0----------------0

1835 0-------------------3----------------0----------------1

1838 0-------------------2----------------0----------------0

1840 1-------------------0----------------1----------------1

1841 5-------------------1----------------0----------------0

1842 5-------------------1----------------0----------------2

1843 1-------------------0----------------0----------------1

1844 0-------------------0----------------0----------------2

Total 14------------------12----------------1---------------10

[floatingboy]

Consider the following well-known passage from Lucy Mack Smith's history of her son, Joseph:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelings, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them.

If he were well-acquainted with the Nephites, it can be reasonably argued that he might know about the type of place they lived, and even their actual location. And certain statements he made certainly reinforce the notion that he believed the Nephites/Lamanites were in North America. You may argue, and perhaps rightly so, that he just assumed as much. If that is the case, then where does that leave him in instances such as when he confidently named the skeleton found during Zion's Camp as a mighty Lamanite general named Zelph? Was he just wrong? Was it an instance of him getting a little carried away in the moment?

Finally, if we are to believe Lucy Mack Smith's statement about Joseph's pre-Book of Mormon knowledge of the Nephites, who would be more qualified than he to make statements about where they lived?

Just some thoughts.

[livy111us]

Mesoamericanists argue that is why he latched onto a Mesoamerican setting for The Book of Mormon after reading Stephens and Catherwoods book, because he actually recognized the ruins from being acquainted with them from earlier in his life. I think if Joseph Smith never "changed" his position, North American theorists would have an argument on what he actually believed. But since he changed his focus to Mesoamerica, it really calls into question the "evidence" that they bring up. But again, if you read my post above, he never completely stopped teaching a North American setting, or a South American setting for that matter while he was teaching a Mesoamerican setting.

Regarding Zelph, you may want to read this article:

http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/zelph-in-relation-to-book-of-mormon-geography/

[Kevin Christensen]

One of the odd things about the Lucy Mack Smith quote is that it asserts knowledge of details that do not appear in the Book of Mormon, notably "their dress, mode of travelings, the animals upon which they rode, cities, their buildings, with every particular."

It's an oddly unique claim. The ease with details that she reported regarding the youthful Joseph Smith never shows up in his later life. Nor do members of his family or other associates pass along much specific, if anything, from this fountain of information. Very odd.

It is also quite striking that Joseph Smith rarely taught from the Book of Mormon the way he taught from the Bible, or the revelations. Terryl Givens argued in By the Hand of Mormon that the Book of Mormon mostly functioned as a sign.

Regarding about who would be more qualified than Joseph Smith to make statements about where they lived, Nephi, Alma, Benjamin, Mosiah, Helaman, Mormon, and Moroni all come to mind. If I found conflict between something Joseph Smith said, or was reputed to have said (a location for Manti, for instance), and what the actual narrators said, I'd go with the first hand, eye-witness accounts.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[livy111us]

Matt Roper has debunked the Manti statement in his article reviewing Meldrums Prophecies and Promises.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=22&num=2&id=805

Porter and Meldrum claim that Joseph Smith declared the ancient Book of Mormon city of Manti to be located near Huntsville, Randolph County, Missouri. They cite two documents as support. The first is an entry from the journal of Samuel D. Tyler, a Latter-day Saint who traveled with the Kirtland Camp to Missouri in 1838. ⁸⁹ The second is an excerpt from the Manuscript History of the Church.⁹⁰ Based upon these two references, the authors claim, "The Prophet Joseph, according to these diary accounts, revealed where the Book of Mormon city of Manti was located" (p. 110). Tyler's journal for 25 September 1838 reads as follows:

We passed thro Huntsville, Co. seat Randolph Co. Pop. 450 & three miles further we bought 32 bu. of corn of one of the brethren who resides in this place (66) There are several of the brethren round about here &

this is the ancient site of the City of Manti, which is spoken of in the Book of Mormon

& this is appointed one of the Stakes of Zion and it is in Randolph Co. Mo. 3 miles west of the Co. seat.

91

Contrary to the authors' belief, there is no evidence that Tyler was reporting something he heard Joseph Smith say to the Kirtland Camp. In fact, the Prophet was not even present at the time. He did not travel with the Kirtland Camp from Ohio to Missouri but was already living in Far West, several counties away. ⁹² Tyler never explains where he heard this information, nor does he attribute the ideas about the city Manti to Joseph Smith or a revelation on Book of Mormon geography. What was the source of this local hearsay? Was it based upon something Joseph Smith said, or does it reflect speculation among the local brethren? How accurately was it reported? The Tyler journal does not provide answers for these questions.

The second source the authors cite as evidence that ancient Manti was in Missouri is the Manuscript History of the Church. The relevant entry, for 25 September 1838, reads as follows:

The camp passed through Huntsville in Randolph County which has been appointed as one of the stakes of Zion, and is the ancient site of the City of Manti and pitched tents at Dark Creek, Salt Licks, seventeen miles. It was reported to the camp that one hundred and ten men had volunteered from Randolph and gone to Far West to settle difficulties.

93

This second source, however, is not a contemporary journal written by the Prophet or by anyone else in the Kirtland Camp in 1838; it was actually written by Willard Richards after the Prophet's death. Comparative evidence suggests that Richards's entry was based upon the Tyler journal entry.

Tyler Journal,

25 September 1838

Manuscript History, 1843?

We passed thro Huntsville, Co. seat Randolph Co. Pop. 450 & three miles further we bought 32 bu. of corn of one of the brethren who resides in this place (66) There are several of the brethren round about here & this is the ancient site of the City of Manti, which is spoken of in the Book of Mormon & this isappointed one of the Stakes of Zion & it is in Randolph Co. Mo. 3 miles west of the Co. seat. We progressed on 3 miles further toDark Creek, Salt Licks, & pitched. . . . 17 miles. 733 + 17 = 750 Miles. . . . We hear that 110 men have volunteered to save being drafted & have gone from this Co. to Far West to settle some disturbancesbetween the Missourians & Mormons & that they are collecting forces from many other Co's to settle perhaps they know not what themselves.

The camp passed through Hunts­ville in Randolph Countywhich has been appointed as one of the stakes of Zion, and is the ancient site of the City of Manti and pitched tents at Dark Creek, Salt Licks, seventeen miles. It was reported to the camp that one hundred and ten men had volunteered from Randolph and gone to Far West to settle difficulties.

When this portion of the history was first published in the Millennial Star in 1854, the entry read essentially the same as it did in Richards's handwritten manuscript.⁹⁴ However, when church historian Andrew Jenson prepared it for publication in the Historical Record in 1888, he incorrectly assumed that the Prophet Joseph Smith was the source of this information. Consequently, Jenson inserted the words "which the Prophet said" immediately before the part of the sentence about Manti, making it read "which the Prophet said was the ancient site of the city of Manti." ⁹⁵

Fortunately, there is another source, not cited by the authors, that sheds light upon the question. Elias Smith, a cousin to Joseph Smith, also kept a contemporary journal of the travels and activities of the Kirtland Camp. On this same day, 25 September 1838, he recorded the following:

We came through Huntsville the county seat of Randolph where we were told before we arrived there we should be stopped but saw nothing of the kind when we came through the town and heard no threats whatever, but all appeared friendly. 1

1

/

2

miles west of Huntsville we crossed the east branch of Chariton and 1

1

/

2

miles west of the river we found Ira Ames and some other brethren near the place

where the city of Manti is to be built

and encamped for the night on Dark creek 6 miles from Huntsville.

96

Elias Smith did not equate the land near Huntsville, Missouri, with the ancient location of Manti, but he indicated that this was the place where a future settlement named after the ancient one was "to be built." In light of the above, it would appear that the Missouri Saints in 1838 initially anticipated the establishment of a future settlement and stake of Zion in the region, much as they did later with the Zarahemla settlement in Iowa. Neither the Samuel Tyler nor Elias Smith journals, however, attribute these plans to any prophetic revelation on ancient Book of Mormon geography.

When church historian B. H. Roberts was preparing the History of the Church for publication, he reviewed original sources upon which the Manuscript History was based and revised parts of the narrative accordingly. Although it was apparently unavailable to earlier historians who wrote the Manuscript History, Roberts utilized the Elias Smith account instead of the portion of the Manuscript History based upon the Tyler journal. The entry for 25 September 1838, as first published in 1905 and all subsequent editions of the History of the Church, says that the village of Huntsville, Missouri, was "near the place where the city of Manti is to be built." ⁹⁷ Any attribution to the Prophet Joseph Smith or to Huntsville being the location of the ancient site was removed. Church leaders apparently felt that the words "the place where the city of Manti is to be built"—rather than "the ancient site of the city of Manti"—more accurately reflected what was said.⁹⁸ In any case, there is no authoritative link between Huntsville, Missouri, and the site of ancient Manti (or any other location mentioned in the Book of Mormon).

Edited October 25, 2011 by livy111us