Is Mormonism A Cult? This Minister Says No.

[Freedom]

http://www.app.com/a...m-truly-a-cult-

I found this article to be the most sensible one to date of the many I have read by evangelical ministers.

[Stargazer]

Yeah, I like this one: "...heaven has different levels, sort of like decks on a cruise ship."

But on which cruise line? Hmmm.

[LeSellers]

If you ask me, the only difference Romney’s faith might make to most Americans, believers and unbelievers alike, were he to be elected president is that he might have the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing at his inauguration instead of Aretha Franklin or Bruce Springsteen.

Michael Riley is an editorial writer and columnist for the Asbury Park Press. He also is pastor of the Atlantic Highlands First Presbyterian Church.

The Tabernacle Choir has already sung at six inaugurations:

• 1965, Lyndon B. Johnson
  
• 1969, Richard Nixon
  
• 1973, Richard Nixon
  
• 1981, Ronald Reagan
  
• 1989, George Bush
  
• 2001, George W. Bush
  

Lehi

Edited October 24, 2011 by LeSellers

[Rob Bowman]

Freedom,

You wrote:

http://www.app.com/a...m-truly-a-cult-

I found this article to be the most sensible one to date of the many I have read by evangelical ministers.

Riley is apparently not an evangelical minister. He is the pastor of a congregation in the Presbyterian Church USA, which is a mainline Protestant denomination, not an evangelical one. For example, the PCUSA rejects biblical inerrancy, a defining doctrine of evangelical theology. Its moderate to liberal approach to the Bible is illustrated by the fact that there is widespread support in the PCUSA for same-sex marriage.

[Freedom]

Rob,

Thanks for that clarification.

[Stargazer]

I indicated that I would post the pastor's response, if any, to my email. Well, he responded, and this was his response. Interestingly enough, something here of interest to Daniel2 and californiaboy.

Dear Mike!

Thank you for your thoughtful response. When I realized I was living in an area with a significant Mormon population, I became very intentional in making Mormon friends. I became quite good friends with our then school superintendent who is a devout Mormon and who had been a bishop in another area before moving to our area. He did me the honor of having my wife and me to their home for an evening with many of the key Mormon leaders in the area. By that time I had obtained a copy of the Book of Mormon and had read every word of it. It was a delightful evening. I have always made it a practice to invite Mormon Missionary Elders into my home when they come to my door. They always are quite surprised when I say “yes” to the question “Have you read the Book of Mormon?”

Once I got acquainted with Mormon friends, I have always accepted Mormons as Christian brothers and sisters. The variety of people who self identify themselves as Christians is truly phenomenal. Some of my fellow Baptists are very uncomfortable with my outspoken acceptance of Mormons as brothers and sisters in Christ. I maintain that people should be free to self-identify themselves in every way including their religious commitments.

You may or may not realize that I have been committed to gay inclusion in our churches for over 35 years. In my gay rights journey, I met several Mormons who were very active in the gay rights movement. I suspect that LDS church will find a basis for acceptance of gay people and gay marriage in the not-too-distant future. I chose not to speak of this issue in the article because I did not want to add comments that would confuse the core issue of full acceptance of Mormons in our society. Recognizing differences of opinion is acceptable, but rejecting one another is not acceptable.

About identifying ourselves....Mormons in my experience and observations have traditionally identified themselves first as Mormons and incidentally as Christians. I take note that the cross is THE primary public identification of Christians. I have never seen a cross on a Mormon Stake House. I believe the highest identity is given to the Angel Moroni. Mormons have worked very hard to establish their distinct identity from the vast array of other Christian churches. Mormons are a very aggressive missionary church. Mormons actively recruit members from other Christian groups and, I believe, require rebaptism. Mormons have had a very high birthrate. Utah could never support the number of Mormon people that are being produced by birthrate. The most significant export of Utah is Mormon population. This in turn has produced much broader exposure to the wide spectrum of American society. Our communities have been blessed by the Mormon presence. At the same time Mormons are having to come to terms with very different cultural realities. An increasing number of traditional Christians are embracing Mormons as fellow Christians, and more and more Mormons are making an effort to make known their Christian identity. I believe there is evidence that this process is taking place.

Thank you again for writing to me.

Your brother in Christ, Howard Bess

Edited October 25, 2011 by Stargazer

[Freedom]

Thanks for posting this. I would agree that we are not of the same christian tree as other new testament faiths and consider the term 'christian' to be a nickname applied by non-believers like the term mormon. We, like the new testament disciples, refer to ourselves as saints; or rather, latter day saints. We refer to Christ like attributes rather than christian attributes. I do believe that the pastor is confusing a change in vocabulary with a change in doctrines however; nevertheless, God bless him and his genuine Christ-like attributes.

[Daniel Peterson]

I wouldn't be surprised, frankly, if a President-elect Romney were to choose not to have the Tabernacle Choir sing at his inauguration, not wanting to further inflame concerns about a Mormon takeover.

[Hannah Rebekah]

Thanks for posting this. I would agree that we are not of the same christian tree as other new testament faiths and consider the term 'christian' to be a nickname applied by non-believers like the term mormon. We, like the new testament disciples, refer to ourselves as saints; or rather, latter day saints. We refer to Christ like attributes rather than christian attributes. I do believe that the pastor is confusing a change in vocabulary with a change in doctrines however; nevertheless, God bless him and his genuine Christ-like attributes.

Freedom,

Good points. Of the three times that the word Christian is used in the NT do you remember how many times the word Saint was used? It was the Lord's preferred name for his followers. I'm not sure if other Christians even use that word to refer to themselves....do they?

[Zakuska]

I wouldn't be surprised, frankly, if a President-elect Romney were to choose not to have the Tabernacle Choir sing at his inauguration, not wanting to further inflame concerns about a Mormon takeover.

But where is the fun in that? Us poor persecuted brain dead mormon scums need all those shrill cries and gnashing of teeth to recharge our over inflated persecution complexes.

[Rob Bowman]

Hannah Rebekah,

You wrote:

Of the three times that the word Christian is used in the NT do you remember how many times the word Saint was used? It was the Lord's preferred name for his followers. I'm not sure if other Christians even use that word to refer to themselves....do they?

CFR that "Saint" was the Lord's preferred name for his followers.

[Anakin7]

Hannah Rebekah,

You wrote:

CFR that "Saint" was the Lord's preferred name for his followers.

From memory I seem to remember in Revelations the LORD through the angel calling his followers " Saints".

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[LeSellers]

CFR that "Saint" was the Lord's preferred name for his followers.

Since none of the three instances of "Christian(s)" was the Lord or a heavenly messenger, CFR that "Christian" is the Lord's preferred term for His followers. (One infers from your — as well as that of a multitude of others — usage that "Christians" is His label of choice.

I haven't done an exhaustive search, but I recall the following;

• brethren
  
• Saints
  
• followers [of the way]
  
• disciples
  
• chosen (ones)
  
• beloved (of the Lord) (of a writer)
  
• elect (people)
  

I'm sure there are others. A professional such as yourself would be able to name many more, perhaps a hundred. But no one can definitively say, based solely on the Bible, that "Christian" was a positive term used by the Saints themselves as a title describing the followers of Jesus Christ.

Lehi

[Rob Bowman]

Lehi,

You wrote:

Since none of the three instances of "Christian(s)" was the Lord or a heavenly messenger, CFR that "Christian" is the Lord's preferred term for His followers. (One infers from your — as well as that of a multitude of others — usage that "Christians" is His label of choice.

You infer incorrectly. I have made no such claim, nor do I think any such thing. Therefore, your CFR does not apply, because I don't think the Lord prefers one term over another.

You wrote:

I haven't done an exhaustive search, but I recall the following;

• brethren
  
• Saints
  
• followers [of the way]
  
• disciples
  
• chosen (ones)
  
• beloved (of the Lord) (of a writer)
  
• elect (people)
  

I'm sure there are others. A professional such as yourself would be able to name many more, perhaps a hundred. But no one can definitively say, based solely on the Bible, that "Christian" was a positive term used by the Saints themselves as a title describing the followers of Jesus Christ.

Very good. Apparently, then, you do not agree with Hannah Rebekah that her claim that "Saints" is the Lord's preferred term.

[LeSellers]

I have made no such claim, nor do I think any such thing. Therefore, your CFR does not apply, because I don't think the Lord prefers one term over another.

To hear you and others tell it, if we are not "Christians" (and you arrogate unto yourself/ves the right to define the term), then we are not of the church of Christ: we are not His disciples from your narrow-minded perspective.

Very good. Apparently, then, you do not agree with Hannah Rebekah that her claim that "Saints" is the Lord's preferred term.

"Saints" is the most prevalent of the biblical alternatives (95 uses in the Bible, of which 61 in the New Testament). It is what He called us when He restored His church in 1830.

The others seem more like descriptors, and not official titles, they are more generic and vague than "Saints".

So, yes, I do agree that "Saint" is the Lord's preferred name for His people.

Lehi

[Rob Bowman]

Lehi,

You wrote:

"Saints" is the most prevalent of the biblical alternatives (95 uses in the Bible, of which 61 in the New Testament). It is what He called us when He restored His church in 1830.

The others seem more like descriptors, and not official titles, they are more generic and vague than "Saints".

So, yes, I do agree that "Saint" is the Lord's preferred name for His people.

Lehi

The word translated "saints" simply means "holy ones." It is just as much a descriptive term as any other.

The word disciples appears some 269 times in the NT, almost always in reference to Jesus' followers. It is by far the most common designation for Jesus' followers in the Gospels and Acts. The epistles use a variety of other terms (saints, believers, brethren, etc.). They use the term brethren (brothers) more often than saints (over a hundred times). By any objective measure, saints is not "the preferred term" in the NT.

[Freedom]

While it may be true that 'saints' is not the preferred term, 'christian' is not even on the list. So if some want to say we are not Christians, we would be in the same lot as the early disciples of Christ.

[LeSellers]

The word translated "saints" simply means "holy ones." It is just as much a descriptive term as any other.

The word "saint" means "holy one", just as much as ἅγιος ("hagios")does. It means, more exactly "one set apart", which is what we Saints are.

Lehi

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Lehi,

They use the term brethren (brothers) more often than saints (over a hundred times).

I find this quite interesting. Thanks for sharing.