Got Authority?

[Rob Bowman]

shalamabobbi,

Regarding the Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20), you wrote:

Except that that commission was not given to anyone other than to the apostles to whom He spake on that particular occasion. They presumably gave it to others but we don't have those records.

I see no need for "records." The disciples to whom Jesus gave the commission went out and led more people to become disciples, who led more people to become disciples, who led more people to become disciples...you get the idea. Jesus didn't say anything about keeping records so as to be able to document the chain of disciple-making to the satisfaction of people in the 21st-century.

It really makes no sense to limit the Great Commission to the apostles. They were simply the foundational members of the first generation of that effort. Jesus said he would be with them in that disciple-making effort toward all nations "until the end of the age" (v. 20). This means that Christ continued to exercise his authority in heaven and earth (v. 18) by working through his disciples in every generation and that he will continue to do so until the end of the age. This passage, in fact, is clear evidence against the LDS doctrine of the Great Apostasy. Christ clearly expected to be working through disciples throughout the age, not just for seventy years or so.

You wrote:

There is no Biblical precedent for your assumed authority nor any Biblical example where scripture by itself is sufficient to send laborers into the vinyard.

This is a fabrication.

I didn't say that Scripture sends us into the vineyard; I said that Christ did.

No one takes this authority unto himself but he that is called of God as was Aaron.

That is Biblical.

That is taking the Bible out of context. Hebrews 5:1 is referring to the office of priest, not to the status of a disciple; and all disciples are called to make disciples, so that doing so is not taking authority to oneself but simply obeying what Christ commands disciples to do.

Other Mormons here have insisted that they acknowledge non-Mormon believers in Christ to be his disciples. Do you?

While that is so it does not have the effect that you impose upon it because all men will be judged according to the intents of their hearts and with what they know.

I agree with what you say here, so I have no idea why it would negate my point.

And the possibility exists in LDS theology for someone to receive the technical details of church membership (authoritative baptism) after mortality.

Your views don't allow this do they? What happens to good people who don't hear of God or Christ living in America during the time of Christ's ministry? Are they Christian or not Christian? Are they saved or damned?

What good people (cf. Rom. 3:9-20)?

[volgadon]

Quick- anyone reading this- are "Moravians" Christian? Are they orthodox or protestants, or is it an Islamic sect? What do know about what they believe?

Christian pietists from the 18th c.

[shalamabobbi]

Whoa. Deja vu.

What did you just say?

Nothing, Just had a little deja vu.

What happened?

A black cat went past us, and then another that looked just like it.

How much like it? Was it the same cat?

It might have been. I'm not sure.

Switch Apoc!

What is it?

A deja vu is usually a glitch in the Matrix.

[mfbukowski]

Christian pietists from the 18th c.

Yeah, sure, the quiz kid who always knows the answer. You don't count!

[volgadon]

Yeah, sure, the quiz kid who always knows the answer. You don't count!

Mastermind is the only gameshow I like.

My first area in my mission used to be Moravian and it was where the Bible was first translated into Kalmyk. Kalmyks are still the only Buddhist nation in Europe.

[mfbukowski]

Mastermind is the only gameshow I like.

My first area in my mission used to be Moravian and it was where the Bible was first translated into Kalmyk. Kalmyks are still the only Buddhist nation in Europe.

I had never heard of them until I moved to my present house- there is a Moravian church about a mile down the street. Then my kids went there for nursery school- great folks!

[Rob Bowman]

DaddyG,

You wrote:

While I'm sure Rob can justify his claims sufficiently to his own satisfaction I think it is very un-christian to claim others do not follow Christ.

Hmmm... It's very un-Christian to judge that someone is not a Christian. There's something troubling about that assertion....

For the record, and to repeat myself, I certainly don't claim to be able to judge people's hearts.

[Rob Bowman]

DaddyG,

You wrote:

Yet it does not prevent millions of Muslims from killing each other over that distinction. Even silly arguments like Rob's are dangerous when people are willing to demonize others over them. That is why I find his claims disturbing.

That is just a reprehensible attempt at guilt by association. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Rob Bowman]

shalamabobbi,

You wrote:

Leaving aside the classification, what exactly do you imagine will happen to the Americans who did not hear the gospel or any others who did not hear the gospel in mortality?

Why ignore the question of whether they are good or bad people? Is that not relevant?

I have discussed this question in detail in an earlier thread. A brief answer will certainly invite further cross-examination and debate that is really not relevant to this thread.

[KevinG]

DaddyG,

You wrote:

That is just a reprehensible attempt at guilt by association. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I think Muslims opposing each other over theological differences is an apt parallel to Christians opposing each other over theological differences. It is well established that those types of innerfaith arguments can be as violent and harmful as any conflict between religions.

In fact we see the fruits of this kind of irrational contention and demonization in the Republican primary election with the accusations levelled against Romney for his religion.

What the heck did you think I was talking about?

Edited October 18, 2011 by DaddyG

[mfbukowski]

This passage, in fact, is clear evidence against the LDS doctrine of the Great Apostasy. Christ clearly expected to be working through disciples throughout the age, not just for seventy years or so.

Glad to know that you acknowledge Catholic authority for all those years up until the Reformation. By the way, where did the true Catholic authority go wrong that it had to be reformed??

There is a basic contradiction here.

Either the Catholics had a chain of authority you acknowledge, and then there was no need for a Reformation, OR they did not, and then there were no "disciples"- according to your definition of "disciples"- to be working through.

I didn't say that Scripture sends us into the vineyard; I said that Christ did.

Interesting. Then you must know this independent of the Bible, by direct inspiration from God, right? Otherwise of course it would have to be through Christ's Biblical command- which is of course in "Scripture".

That is taking the Bible out of context. Hebrews 5:1 is referring to the office of priest, not to the status of a disciple; and all disciples are called to make disciples, so that doing so is not taking authority to oneself but simply obeying what Christ commands disciples to do.

That only works as long as the Catholics were true "disciples", of course, on your view. Again we have the problem of what was the need for the Reformation if all were still disciples?

Other Mormons here have insisted that they acknowledge non-Mormon believers in Christ to be his disciples. Do you?

Sure, But they don't have the Priesthood- THAT is what is being discussed here, not discipleship.

[Rob Bowman]

DaddyG,

You wrote:

I think Muslims opposing each other over theological differences is an apt parallel to Christians opposing each other over theological differences. It is well established that those types of innerfaith arguments can be as violent and harmful as any conflict between religions.

In fact we see the fruits of this kind of irrational contention and demonization in the Republican primary election with the accusations levelled against Romney for his religion.

What the heck did you think I was talking about?

And you think evangelicals who express concerns about having a Mormon in the White House are akin to Muslims who kill other Muslims over their religious differences?

Yes, what the heck are you talking about?

[shalamabobbi]

There is a basic contradiction here.

Just a quibble. This should be plural.

What's sad is that some think that mainstream Christians as a whole are more loving/accepting/caring in doctrine than the LDS since they are at first glance less exclusive. Then you discover that without ordinances for the dead their God becomes quite an unjust, unloving being who rewards and punishes based upon quite an unfair program.

Take for instance Saul/Paul. He was the same person before and after his vision on the road to Damascus. Yet if he wasn't visited he's damned, visited he's saved. How many are like that? Good to know that they will be judged based on what they would have done in like circumstance.

The beliefs of mainstream Christianity are rather frightening. What's worse? The God they worship or the adherents that are willing to worship such a being?

I have to hope that the majority of them don't think too deeply about what it is they believe..

Edited October 18, 2011 by shalamabobbi

[Hannah Rebekah]

DaddyG,

I have already answered your question in that other thread.

While you as a Mormon don't claim to judge who is a "Christian" and who is not, you do claim to judge who is in a true church and who is not. For me as an orthodox Christian, there is no difference. No one who is not part of the true church of Jesus Christ is a Christian, and all Christians are part of the true church. The true church is not a single denomination or institutional religion, but is the body of Christ, composed of all genuine believers in Jesus Christ who have accepted the biblical gospel and united themselves through baptism and church fellowship to other believers in that gospel. By this definition any religion or individual who is outside that communion of believers in the biblical Christ and gospel is outside the church. In that sense, they are not Christians. I and all other members of the body of Christ have not only authority from God but a responsibility from God to know, affirm, and defend the essential standards (doctrinal and behavioral) of the church, and to reach out in love to those outside the church with the truth. We derive this authority from being his adopted children and disciples, commissioned by Jesus Christ to make disciples of all nations (Matt. 28:19). Teachers and other leaders in the body of Christ have a special responsibility in this regard.

I find the part about "reach out in love to those outside the church with the truth" to be very disturbing and very disingenuous. I find the debate ignited by Pastor Jeffress that Mormons are not Christian and are a cult very disturbing, bigoted and not Christian. And that goes for all the brainwashed followers who feel the same because Mormons have been smeared about what we believe. To tell you the truth....I'm just not feeling the love in your so-called truth.

[Calm]

The beliefs of mainstream Christianity are rather frightening. What's worse? The God they worship or the adherents that are willing to worship such a being?

I have to hope that the majority of them don't think too deeply about what it is they believe..

My experience is that the beliefs in this area (fate of the dead) are quite varied, more so as time goes on as well.

There is a wonderful article on Americacatholic.org titled Life After Life: What will we do for an encore? for example.

I believe the Catholic faith leaves it up to God whether or not someone dies in a state of Grace and thus is saved, it has been awhile but iirc even those who are not intellectually aware of Christ may be spiritually aware of him and thus may be saved, they do not judge by outward appearance who is saved and who is damned.....and if you talk about mainstream Christianity you have to include Catholics as the largest denomination and Orthodox as one of the oldest, not just focus on Protestants.

Edited October 18, 2011 by calmoriah

[IloveaMormon]

Whoa. Deja vu.

What did you just say?

Nothing, Just had a little deja vu.

What happened?

A black cat went past us, and then another that looked just like it.

How much like it? Was it the same cat?

It might have been. I'm not sure.

Switch Apoc!

What is it?

A deja vu is usually a glitch in the Matrix.

That's Funaaaaaaaay!

[zerinus]

I didn't say that Scripture sends us into the vineyard; I said that Christ did.

But you are not following Christ if you reject the Restored gospel, and the New Dispensation that accompanies it:

D&C 22:

1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.

D&C 84:

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

115 For if they do reject these things the hour of their judgment is nigh, and their house shall be left unto them desolate.

118 For, with you saith the Lord Almighty, I will rend their kingdoms; I will not only shake the earth, but the starry heavens shall tremble.

119 For I, the Lord, have put forth my hand to exert the powers of heaven; ye cannot see it now, yet a little while and ye shall see it, and know that I am, and that I will come and reign with my people.

120 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Amen.

2 Nephi 27:

11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.

12 For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.

You have no mandate from Christ to do anything. The mandate rests with the LDS Church.

[altersteve]

But you are not following Christ if you reject the Restored gospel, and the New Dispensation that accompanies it:

The Church has always warned its members against saying things like this. I still accept Rob and all others who profess to follow Christ as fellow disciples of the Savior I worship, regardless of their other beliefs or religious affiliation. And Rob does in fact have "mandate from Christ" to be Christlike in all things, to be an example and to show the pure love of Christ to all. Anyone who follows and worships Him has a responsibility to show it in word and in deed. All Christians have "mandate from Christ" to do this.

[Storm Rider]

The Church has always warned its members against saying things like this. I still accept Rob and all others who profess to follow Christ as fellow disciples of the Savior I worship, regardless of their other beliefs or religious affiliation. And Rob does in fact have "mandate from Christ" to be Christlike in all things, to be an example and to show the pure love of Christ to all. Anyone who follows and worships Him has a responsibility to show it in word and in deed. All Christians have "mandate from Christ" to do this.

I agree. I reject that statement that to follow Christ one must accept the restored gospel. Quite the contrary, I know that others follow Christ AND are following God's will to be members of other churches.

[Rob Bowman]

shalamabobbi,

You wrote:

What's sad is that some think that mainstream Christians as a whole are more loving/accepting/caring in doctrine than the LDS since they are at first glance less exclusive. Then you discover that without ordinances for the dead their God becomes quite an unjust, unloving being who rewards and punishes based upon quite an unfair program.

Not at all. We "mainstream Christians" don't believe the dead will miss out merely because they didn't get dunked in water or go through some ceremonies in a Mormon temple. The standard by which God will judge people is quite just. However, by his sheer grace, his judgment will be cancelled for billions on the basis of what Christ did for them.

Take for instance Saul/Paul. He was the same person before and after his vision on the road to Damascus. Yet if he wasn't visited he's damned, visited he's saved. How many are like that? Good to know that they will be judged based on what they would have done in like circumstance.

Paul would be the first in line to acknowledge that he did not get what he deserved (1 Cor. 15:8-10; 1 Tim. 1:15). The judgment that he deserved based on what he had done was cancelled by grace. That's the gospel. Your comments illustrate the deep chasm between your understanding of the gospel and ours.

The beliefs of mainstream Christianity are rather frightening. What's worse? The God they worship or the adherents that are willing to worship such a being?

I have to hope that the majority of them don't think too deeply about what it is they believe.

It is regrettable that you take such a dim view of the God of orthodox Christianity, but your comment illustrates why many of us who do think very deeply about what we believe regard the LDS Church as another religion. As you indicate, we have very different views of the gospel and in effect worship different Gods.

[Rob Bowman]

Hannah Rebekah,

You wrote:

I find the part about "reach out in love to those outside the church with the truth" to be very disturbing and very disingenuous. I find the debate ignited by Pastor Jeffress that Mormons are not Christian and are a cult very disturbing, bigoted and not Christian. And that goes for all the brainwashed followers who feel the same because Mormons have been smeared about what we believe. To tell you the truth....I'm just not feeling the love in your so-called truth.

Here we go again. You assert that it is bigoted for someone to deny that Mormons are Christian (even in a carefully qualified theological sense) and assert at the same time that it is "not Christian." You presume to judge me as disingenuous, but we are not supposed to judge the authenticity of your religion's claim to be Christian. Apparently you may judge if someone's behavior and intentions are not Christian but others may not judge your doctrine to be not Christian. That would seem to be quite the double standard. I am not judging or criticizing your motives, only your doctrines and the reasoning you present in support of them. You, on the other hand, are judging my motives and actions--without really understanding them.

This is an online dialogue forum, and although it is not supposed to be "debate" in the sense of contention or rancor, the fact is that dialogue on screen between people who do not know each other personally is all too often cold, lacking in the personal dimension that allows us to see each others' real attitudes and intentions. I find this very difficult to overcome. Regrettably, many Mormons associate even the most respectfully expressed criticism of their doctrines with the patently disrespectful displays of the most outlandish street preachers or the most sensationalized exposes of some popular fundamentalist writers. I can only say that I and the evangelical colleagues with whom I associate in ministry do not even come close to falling into these categories. I will not work with those whose approach to Mormons or other religious groups is bigoted or inflammatory.

This is one reason I was happy to meet with a couple of the LDS members of this forum personally. Doing so gave us an opportunity to see each other as human beings and not merely as screen personae. Ironically, I am using my real name, exposing myself as a real person to scrutiny here, while most of the other participants use pseudonyms or made-up names. I have been transparent about my identity, my position, my intentions and purposes, and have endured all sorts of judgments made against me as a result. I certainly have not "felt the love" when I have been subjected to scorn, derision, and anger. But I don't expect to feel love in an online forum discussing our important theological differences. It would be nice, however, not to feel the contempt.

[zerinus]

The Church has always warned its members against saying things like this. I still accept Rob and all others who profess to follow Christ as fellow disciples of the Savior I worship, regardless of their other beliefs or religious affiliation. And Rob does in fact have "mandate from Christ" to be Christlike in all things, to be an example and to show the pure love of Christ to all. Anyone who follows and worships Him has a responsibility to show it in word and in deed. All Christians have "mandate from Christ" to do this.

I agree. I reject that statement that to follow Christ one must accept the restored gospel. Quite the contrary, I know that others follow Christ AND are following God's will to be members of other churches.

He has no mandate from Christ to do anything except to repent and keep His commandments. He has no mandate to preach a false gospel, or to fight against Zion. He will be damned if he does; and so would you be if you followed suit.

[altersteve]

He has no mandate from Christ to do anything except to repent and keep His commandments. He has no mandate to preach a false gospel, or to fight against Zion. He will be damned if he does; and so would you be if you followed suit.

I'm not saying he does. But he does have a mandate to preach the true gospel, the "good news" that through Christ we may be saved. The "false gospel" that he is preaching is simply one that he does not yet have a proper understanding of.

Let God be the judge of who will be damned. That is not your decision to make.

[zerinus]

I'm not saying he does. But he does have a mandate to preach the true gospel, the "good news" that through Christ we may be saved. The "false gospel" that he is preaching is simply one that he does not yet have a proper understanding of.

Nobody objects to his teaching that "through Christ we may be saved". But nobody has a mandate from Christ to preach a false gospel, intentionally or in error.

Let God be the judge of who will be damned. That is not your decision to make.

D&C 42:

60 And he that doeth according to these things shall be saved, and he that doeth them not shall be damned if he so continue.

Tell me something, do you agree with that revelation?

[altersteve]

Nobody objects to his teaching that "through Christ we may be saved". But nobody has a mandate from Christ to preach a false gospel, intentionally or in error.

I never said otherwise.

Tell me something, do you agree with that revelation?

Of course. But that doesn't mean it's not God's decision. I believe we are to let God deal with such matters. Another person's eternal destiny is between that person and God, and is no business of ours.