The Olmec-Jaredite Convergence

[Olavarria]

Here's another way, 1720 B.C(Sorenson's date for beginning of Levi's reign) - 580bc(Sorenson's estimation for the end)

= 1140 years of Jaredite kings, from Levi to Ether.

The Book of Ether gives us 17 Jaredite kings, from Levi to Ether.

1140/17= 67 year average on throne.

JAREDITE DATES

1518BC:King Lib builds a great city by the narrow neck of land(Ether 10:19-21).

1049BC:The Great Destruction(Ether 11:5-7).

580BC:End of the Jaredite ruling lineage.

Olmec Dates

1500-1200BC:Olmec build San Lorenzo.

900BC:The Olmec site of San Lorenzo is destroyed. Olmec monuments are attacked, defaced and buried.

400 BC:The Olmec site of La Venta is destroyed.

Here is yet one more way, start with the archaeological dates and see if they help illuminate the text ie rather than finding the BoM in mesoamerica, find mesoamerica in the BoM.

If there was 900 years between Lib and Ether, 15 sons and fathers in the lineage, that's an life expectancy of 60 years for these high elites.

Olmec Dates

1500-1200BC:Olmec build San Lorenzo.

900BC:The Olmec site of San Lorenzo is destroyed. Olmec monuments are attacked, defaced and buried.

400 BC:The Olmec site of La Venta is destroyed.

JAREDITE DATES(Assuming Lib is San Lorenzo)

1500BC:King Lib builds a great city by the narrow neck of land(Ether 10:19-21).

820BC:The Great Destruction(Ether 11:5-7).

400BC:End of the Jaredite ruling lineage.

If you get 7 kings from Ether to Shiblom, in 500 years, that gives an average life span of 71 years for the Jaredite high elites.

Jaredite Dates(Assuming the Great Destruction included San Lorenzo)

1465BC:King Lib builds a great city by the narrow neck of land(Ether 10:19-21).

900BC:The Great Destruction(Ether 11:5-7).

400BC:End of the Jaredite ruling lineage.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Pedro A. Olavarria

[blackstrap]

Perhaps we should consider that even around the Great Tower time,life spans were still quite long compared to current ones. Just judging from the Abraham life span,kings from the first few generations of Jaredites may have lived well over 100 years.

[cdowis]

I wonder if Elder Holland has changed his assumptions:

I wonder if he thinks there is only one Hill Cumorah.

[Olavarria]

Here's another way, 1720 B.C(Sorenson's date for beginning of Levi's reign) - 580bc(Sorenson's estimation for the end)

= 1140 years of Jaredite kings, from Levi to Ether.

The Book of Ether gives us 17 Jaredite kings, from Levi to Ether.

1140/17= 67 year average on throne.

JAREDITE DATES

1518BC:King Lib builds a great city by the narrow neck of land(Ether 10:19-21).

1049BC:The Great Destruction(Ether 11:5-7).

580BC:End of the Jaredite ruling lineage.

Olmec Dates

1500-1200BC:Olmec build San Lorenzo.

900BC:The Olmec site of San Lorenzo is destroyed. Olmec monuments are attacked, defaced and buried.

400 BC:The Olmec site of La Venta is destroyed.

I think this is the best one.

[cdowis]

Hate to be a party pooper, but I'll just remind everyone that the Church still appears to teach a literal global flood/ Tower of Babel story that has the promised land being vacant when the Jaredites show up.

The operative word is "apparently". I clicked on the link and see nothing about the Americas being vacant. Indeed, I see a listing of persons found in the scriptures.

Ether 2:7 certainly makes a little less sense if there were already a bunch of Olmecs living there:

I guess it just depends on your assumptions. I have no problem with people residing in the Americas prior to the Jaredites. To my mind, the BOM is silent on the issue and the verse you cited does not preclude other individuals coming here.

Edited October 6, 2011 by cdowis

[cinepro]

I wonder if he thinks there is only one Hill Cumorah.

If I were a betting man, I would bet "yes".

[cinepro]

Hate to be a party pooper, but I'll just remind everyone that the Church still appears to teach a literal global flood/ Tower of Babel story that has the promised land being vacant when the Jaredites show up.

The operative word is "apparently". I clicked on the link and see nothing about the Americas being vacant. Indeed, I see a listing of persons found in the scriptures.

Ether 2:7 certainly makes a little less sense if there were already a bunch of Olmecs living there:

I guess it just depends on your assumptions. I have no problem with people residing in the Americas prior to the Jaredites. To my mind, the BOM is silent on the issue and the verse you cited does not preclude other individuals coming here.

To the degree that the teachings of a future apostle published in the Ensign represent what the Church teaches, the quote from Elder Holland in post #7 would lend support to the "vacant land" reading being the preferred one.

[shalamabobbi]

To the degree that the teachings of a future apostle published in the Ensign represent what the Church teaches, the quote from Elder Holland in post #7 would lend support to the "vacant land" reading being the preferred one.

And if Rob Osborn is called to be an apostle we all have to believe in a hollow earth..

[Rob Osborn]

And if Rob Osborn is called to be an apostle we all have to believe in a hollow earth..

Not to mention UFO's. Don't leave the most important one out!

[cdowis]

To the degree that the teachings of a future apostle published in the Ensign represent what the Church teaches, the quote from Elder Holland in post #7 would lend support to the "vacant land" reading being the preferred one.

Well, I think you have it backwards. The BOM text gives support to his particular opinion, but it also allows me mine. Outside of personal knowledge or revelation, my opinion is as valid as his, even an opinion published in the Ensign. Seems that we have had this conversation before on several issues, nicht wahr.

It's amusing that you put on a pretense to be a faithful traditionalist where the thinking has been done for us, when it suits your agenda. I don't think you're fooling anyone. I am willing to take BY's advice to think for myself.

It would be interesting to have an opportunity for an informal discussion with him on his current opinion, reflecting scientific investigation. He was the head of an educational institution, as I have heard.

Edited October 6, 2011 by cdowis

[shalamabobbi]

Not to mention UFO's. Don't leave the most important one out!

No no I can't do that, but you have to write a book first. If you do, how much do you want for the movie rights?

[Olavarria]

I'm a little confused. Can someone explain to me why the Lord led the Jaredites to the

Hate to be a party pooper, but I'll just remind everyone that the Church still appears to teach a literal global flood/ Tower of Babel story that has the promised land being vacant when the Jaredites show up.

The idea that fundamentalist assumptions about Babel and the biblical chronology are divinely revealed truths is not something I subscribe to.

[cinepro]

The idea that fundamentalist assumptions about Babel and the biblical chronology are divinely revealed truths is not something I subscribe to.

Which could probably also be worded this way....

An idea I don't subscribe to can be called a "fundamentalist assumption" with the implication that it isn't divinely revealed truth.

[cinepro]

It's amusing that you put on a pretense to be a faithful traditionalist where the thinking has been done for us, when it suits your agenda. I don't think you're fooling anyone. I am willing to take BY's advice to think for myself.

I might not be fooling anyone, but I wonder if Elder Holland is?

[Olavarria]

OLMEC DATES

2500-1500BC:The first farming villages in Mesoamerica appear.

1500-1200BC:Olmec build San Lorenzo.

1100BC:By this time, La Venta becomes a major Olmec site.

900BC:The Olmec site of San Lorenzo is destroyed.

400 BC:The Olmec site of La Venta is destroyed

Here's another way, rather than looking for the BoM in meso, look for meso in the BoM.

1)Assume the Jaredite ruling lineage arrived at 2500bc and died out at 400bc.

2)Take 2100years and divide it my 30 listed kings, giving us an average generation of 70 years.

JAREDITE DATES

1320BC:King Lib builds a great city by the narrow neck of land(Ether 10:19-21).

890BC:The Great Destruction(Ether 11:5-7).

If nothing else, this shows that Sorenson's model is plausible.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Pedro A. Olavarria

[Rob Osborn]

I don't see why we are so enamored with dates archaeologists give. Many think that the mayan were the nephite/lamanites but the dates from their earliest civilizations pre-date 600BC. What gives? A case for cherry picking?

[cinepro]

I don't see why we are so enamored with dates archaeologists give. Many think that the mayan were the nephite/lamanites but the dates from their earliest civilizations pre-date 600BC. What gives? A case for cherry picking?

I think the assumption is that the Lehites found the Maya already here, and then integrated with them, learned their language, took over their political and religious culture, introduced old world technology, but not to any degree that would be evident in the archaeological record.

[Olavarria]

I don't see why we are so enamored with dates archaeologists give. Many think that the mayan were the nephite/lamanites but the dates from their earliest civilizations pre-date 600BC. What gives? A case for cherry picking?

No, not at all.

Strictly speaking a Nephite could be a:

1)descendant of Nephi (Mosiah 25:2).

2)Someone that was allied with Nephi and his descendants(Jacob 1:14).

3)Someone who was part of God's covenant people(4 Nephi:37-38)

Strictly speaking, a Lamanite could be:

1)a descendant of Laman(Alma 55:4).

2)anyone who is not a Nephite(Jacob 1:14).

3) anyone one who rejected the true gospel of Christ(4 Nephi 37-38)

I believe that "Nephites" were to mesoamerica what Mormons were to the American Southwest. The Mormons made their way out west in the 1800's but so did a lot of other people, all of whom to a Tibetan would have been indistinguishable.

Like the Mormons, the Nephites weren't some unique civilization or racial group as much as a religious tradition, led by actual descendants of Lehi. Saying that the Nephites are the Mayans is like saying that the Americans are the Mormons, or that the Mormons are the Americans. Those aren't true statements. However, Nephites and Lamanites inhabited the same time and space as other ancient Mesoamerican peoples and so would have participated in Mesoamerican culture.

As for the Jaredites, they were a dynasty who traced their origin back to Jared. When I make correlations between the Jaredites and the Olmec; I am not saying that the Jaredites are the Olmec or that Olmec are the Jaredites, but rather that some Jaredites, the kings listed in Ether 1, may have ruled over some Olmec people.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of ancient Americans came here, from Siberia, via the Behring Strait long before any Book of Mormon peoples even existed.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Pedro A. Olavarria

[Olavarria]

The reason I am enamored by the dates archaeologists give us is that they are based on good peer reviewed science and are useful when studying the history of the Book of Mormon.

John Sorenson has done the best work on these matters by first constructing a map based on the book's own claims about it's own geography. That map fits very nicely with the area straddling the Strait of Tehuantepec. The Jaredite-Olmec convergence is one of many that show his paradigm might be correct.

[Robert F. Smith]

I beg to differ. They used the same count system and there is some proof they used the same calendar system. They also used similar building techniques. I think it fair to say in comparison that the native Americans of our day are far removed from their ancestoral roots of the BoM peoples. So, why would it be any different than the Jaredites? They both span the same period of time? Modern native Americans who know nothing of the LDS religion have no clue or are completely unaware of their ancestors- the Nephites and Lamanites- being virtually unaware that they had ever existed.

Just something to think over.

The Maya Classical period comes a thousand years after the demise of the Olmec. Their languages are completely different and unrelated, although they inherited certain technical terms along with all the other diverse Mesoamerican peoples -- all of whom used the calendar and counting system used by the earlier Olmec.

The situation is very similar to well-known examples of dependence on and use by a subsequent and unrelated civilization. Roman engineering, science, and art were heavily dependent on the Greeks, who were in turn dependent upon Mesopotamian math and technology -- including algebra -- and most people of our culture are completely unaware of that dependence on Mesopotamia, believing erroneously that it all started with the Greeks.

[Robert F. Smith]

Wait a second. Can you please explain to me how these verses might not be referring to the Tower of Babel?

Are you just saying that the name "Babel" is incorrect?

Well, yes, but it requires some explanation:

The very beginning of the long Jaredite journey begins with the well-known biblical episode of the Great Tower, confusion of tongues, and scattering of peoples across the face of the Earth (Ether 1:33-42, Gen 11:6-9). This immediately calls to mind the Sumerian “Golden Age” passage in which “the whole universe, the people in unison, to Enlil in one tongue (eme-aš-àm) gave praise,” to be followed shortly by the struggle between Enlil and Enki, lord of Eridu, who “changed the speech in their mouths, put contention into it, into the speech of man that (until then) had been one.”¹ This is a very early tradition, and can be found in pre-biblical documents, which supports the notion of many biblical scholars that the name Babel is inserted as a gloss in the Jewish Exilic period.

¹. S. N. Kramer, Sumerian Mythology, rev. ed. (Harper & Row, 1961/reprint Univ. of Penn. Press, 1972), xiv,107 n. 2.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

I wonder if he thinks there is only one Hill Cumorah.

Nice article -- written when he was Dean of Religious Education at BYU (or maybe when he had just been appointed CES Commissioner that same year, 1976).

[Robert F. Smith]

Here is yet one more way, start with the archaeological dates and see if they help illuminate the text ie rather than finding the BoM in mesoamerica, find mesoamerica in the BoM.

If there was 900 years between Lib and Ether, 15 sons and fathers in the lineage, that's an life expectancy of 60 years for these high elites.

Olmec Dates

1500-1200BC:Olmec build San Lorenzo.

900BC:The Olmec site of San Lorenzo is destroyed. Olmec monuments are attacked, defaced and buried.

400 BC:The Olmec site of La Venta is destroyed.

JAREDITE DATES(Assuming Lib is San Lorenzo)

1500BC:King Lib builds a great city by the narrow neck of land(Ether 10:19-21).

820BC:The Great Destruction(Ether 11:5-7).

400BC:End of the Jaredite ruling lineage.

If you get 7 kings from Ether to Shiblom, in 500 years, that gives an average life span of 71 years for the Jaredite high elites.

Jaredite Dates(Assuming the Great Destruction included San Lorenzo)

1465BC:King Lib builds a great city by the narrow neck of land(Ether 10:19-21).

900BC:The Great Destruction(Ether 11:5-7).

400BC:End of the Jaredite ruling lineage.

I like the way you carry on a learned conversation with yourself, and the results speak for themselves -- excellent, as usual.

The only problem is that we must assume a continuous line without breaks, and that is when the discordant "descendant" word comes in. Was this a problem in the original Jaredite record itself, in the first translation of the Jaredite record, or a problem in editing? Since both "son" and "descendant" translate the same word, we are pretty much left to our own imaginations.

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't see why we are so enamored with dates archaeologists give. Many think that the mayan were the nephite/lamanites but the dates from their earliest civilizations pre-date 600BC. What gives? A case for cherry picking?

cinepro says:

I think the assumption is that the Lehites found the Maya already here, and then integrated with them, learned their language, took over their political and religious culture, introduced old world technology, but not to any degree that would be evident in the archaeological record.

Most Book of Mormon scholars go along with what cinepro says here in a general way, but there are three major issues to be considered:

1) The Nephites and Mulekites were likely centered in the Grijalva River Valley, which is not Maya territory, but is Mixe-Zoque.

2) The Land of First Inheritance may have been located in the Guatemala highlands (altiplano), which is Maya, and that is where the Lamanites stayed,

3) The rule by elite groups which is so typical in Mesoamerica (and is even true of the Nephites in Zarahemla), does not require that Nephites, Mulekites, or even Jaredites be first in the land.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[Rob Osborn]

The reason I am enamored by the dates archaeologists give us is that they are based on good peer reviewed science and are useful when studying the history of the Book of Mormon.

John Sorenson has done the best work on these matters by first constructing a map based on the book's own claims about it's own geography. That map fits very nicely with the area straddling the Strait of Tehuantepec. The Jaredite-Olmec convergence is one of many that show his paradigm might be correct.

Ok, so peer reviewed work is the principle in action then? If we rely on that then chalk the Book of Mormon up as fiction- the peer reviwed folks already have the America's figured out and there isn't no place for the book of Mormon as a historical document.