“…For How Many Little Children Have Died Without Baptism!” Moroni 8: 12.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On a website that I frequent and frequently get banned from for days, sometimes weeks our (LDS) view concerning marriage and children is a topic of scorn. Once, there was a long running thread that spoke of children as young as 8 months being just as evil as any adult. Women in the LDS Church are referred too as “baby machines”, “having “litters” (like they are dogs) and babies referred to a gluttonous, violent, brats, nose miners, etc.

Many of the Calvinist say that they could be pre-ordained for hell. I have scriptures quoted to me such as…”all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. Some have told me that they would be worthy of hell as anyone else for they are born in sin, this is shared by all EV denominations as well as Catholics.

Here is what “We Believe”

Moroni 8: 10-15

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.

Note my highlight of verse 10 about being “accountable”, I did so because when I grew up in the Baptist Church I was taught that children did not sin until they reached the “age of accountability”.

We also believe that…that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. (2^nd Article of Faith)

Christ taught…suffer the little children to come unto me, for such is the kingdom of God”.

Even it the OT we read…

J

eremiah 31: 27-31 (Christ speaking if his day and the last days…)

27 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.

29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.

30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

31 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Sites I have visited and posted on, use matrimony, motherhood and children as crude jokes. No one there offers a defense for these valued covenants.

I bring this up for two reasons…

One or more of our GA’s addressed the sacred value of family and many who seek to delay such things for worldly gain.

(and)

When did the attitude concerning marriage and children make such a change in other religious circles?

One of my Uncles died at 4 hours of age…what could he have done to sin, and what God would consider him a sinner?

[thesometimesaint]

Pa Pa:

Never understood how young children could sin.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa:

Never understood how young children could sin.

I thought you would have to have understanding of the principle or law, in the case of my four hour old uncle, how could he have sinned. In fact I believe that Paul even addressed those who have no law.

[3DOP]

Pa Pa

Some have told me that they would be worthy of hell as anyone else for they are born in sin, this is shared by all EV denominations as well as Catholics.

3DOP

Why do you cite a book written about people in the New World who apparently believed all dead unbaptized babies are tortured in hell, and then imply that this is what all pedobaptists the world over believe today? If you want to be happy with your beliefs, that's your business. You can impose the beliefs of some sect in Moroni's day to "all EV denominations as well as Catholics" today, without the least attention to important distinctions between the views of contemporary EV's and Catholics. But it is misleading information. For instance, speaking for Catholics, nevermind "hellfire". We don't believe a single unbaptized dead baby has ever felt ANY kind of sense pain, being completely innocent of any actual sin. I doubt your Protestant friends would appreciate being lumped in with the "Moronians" either.

Edited October 4, 2011 by 3DOP

[Cobalt-70]

Never understood how young children could sin.

For most other Christians, it's not that they believe that children can sin. Its that children, and everyone, are born with (to use Book of Mormon terminology) a "carnal, sensual, and devilish" nature. They are not born with sins, but rather born with a sinful nature. They don't believe that children inherit the sin of Adam (i.e., eating the forbidden fruit). What children inherit is the fallen and imperfect human nature that entered the world with the Fall.

This is fully consistent with Book of Mormon salvation theology, which says, "And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins." (Mosiah 3:16). Mormons and other Christians are not so different in this respect. Like Mormons, Protestants believe that the grace of Jesus automatically saves little children. Though the Catholics believe that little children should be baptized early to remove their fallen nature, even Catholics don't believe that unbaptized children are going to hell. Since 1300, these infants were assigned to a "limbo," and the last two Popes have been working to formally clarify that actually, unbaptized infants go directly to heaven rather than limbo.

I think, by and large, the differences that Mormons see in the doctrine of infant salvation are manufactured distinctions. Both Mormons and non-Mormon Christians believe basically the same thing with regard to the salvation of little children.

[Calm]

I doubt your Protestant friends would appreciate being lumped in with the "Moronians" either.

Well said.

Pa Pa, I think you would be better served with much less time on CARM, it is giving you a twisted view of other Christians. Why not look for boards that are more about sharing their own POV than trashing others?

[seriously honestly]

On a website that I frequent and frequently get banned from for days, sometimes weeks our (LDS) view concerning marriage and children is a topic of scorn. Once, there was a long running thread that spoke of children as young as 8 months being just as evil as any adult. Women in the LDS Church are referred too as “baby machines”, “having “litters” (like they are dogs) and babies referred to a gluttonous, violent, brats, nose miners, etc.

Many of the Calvinist say that they could be pre-ordained for hell. I have scriptures quoted to me such as…”all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. Some have told me that they would be worthy of hell as anyone else for they are born in sin, this is shared by all EV denominations as well as Catholics.

Here is what “We Believe”

Note my highlight of verse 10 about being “accountable”, I did so because when I grew up in the Baptist Church I was taught that children did not sin until they reached the “age of accountability”.

We also believe that…that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. (2^nd Article of Faith)

Christ taught…suffer the little children to come unto me, for such is the kingdom of God”.

Even it the OT we read…

J

Sites I have visited and posted on, use matrimony, motherhood and children as crude jokes. No one there offers a defense for these valued covenants.

I bring this up for two reasons…

One or more of our GA’s addressed the sacred value of family and many who seek to delay such things for worldly gain.

(and)

When did the attitude concerning marriage and children make such a change in other religious circles?

One of my Uncles died at 4 hours of age…what could he have done to sin, and what God would consider him a sinner?

Weird--I was just reading Moroni 8...

To be held accountable is be be held responsible for ones choices and actions. I believe children are capable of sinning, and that infants are born with original sin and have to deal with the effects of it on their lives, HOWEVER, I do not blieve they are held accountable for their sins in God's sight until they are capable of making a decision for or against Christ. I do not think there was anything your uncle did that made God angry with him, especially at 4 hours of age (I'm sorry to hear about that), but we live in a world of our own making and must deal with the consequence of sin--one of which is physical death. But like I said, I believe God's grace and mercy cover him.

[altersteve]

Little children can sin, but God doesn't hold them accountable for it. They don't know better.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa

Some have told me that they would be worthy of hell as anyone else for they are born in sin, this is shared by all EV denominations as well as Catholics.

3DOP

Why do you cite a book written about people in the New World who apparently believed all dead unbaptized babies are tortured in hell, and then imply that this is what all pedobaptists the world over believe today? If you want to be happy with your beliefs, that's your business. You can impose the beliefs of some sect in Moroni's day to "all EV denominations as well as Catholics" today, without the least attention to important distinctions between the views of contemporary EV's and Catholics. But it is misleading information. For instance, speaking for Catholics, nevermind "hellfire". We don't believe a single unbaptized dead baby has ever felt ANY kind of sense pain, being completely innocent of any actual sin. I doubt your Protestant friends would appreciate being lumped in with the "Moronians" either.

I am not seeking to write a book, this is why I noted the teaching they each have as it related to "original sin". I am posting on Mormon belief's from a number of sources...this is a Mormon site; correct?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Weird--I was just reading Moroni 8...

To be held accountable is be be held responsible for ones choices and actions. I believe children are capable of sinning, and that infants are born with original sin and have to deal with the effects of it on their lives, HOWEVER, I do not blieve they are held accountable for their sins in God's sight until they are capable of making a decision for or against Christ. I do not think there was anything your uncle did that made God angry with him, especially at 4 hours of age (I'm sorry to hear about that), but we live in a world of our own making and must deal with the consequence of sin--one of which is physical death. But like I said, I believe God's grace and mercy cover him.

You know my Uncle was given the name Stephen Lawrence Cooper, my oldest brother was named after him, and almost died of the same thing, but in 1954 medicine had progressed enough to save him. As for original sin, what to you think of the OT Scripture that Christ would make a new covenant, do away with this. Christ atoned for "original sin".

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Little children can sin, but God doesn't hold them accountable for it. They don't know better.

I am not sure that is what LDS Doctrine implies, but teaches against.

[Calm]

I am posting on Mormon belief's from a number of sources...this is a Mormon site; correct?

You are doing more than that when you make comments like "ome have told me that they would be worthy of hell as anyone else for they are born in sin, this is shared by all EV denominations as well as Catholics" and "[w]hen did the attitude concerning marriage and children make such a change in other religious circles?"

LDS intimately know what it's like for people to be careless in presenting their beliefs accurately. This should teach us to take great care when speaking of others' beliefs to be fair and accurate instead of making generalizations that are not only too broad, but inaccurate.

If you claim that the above quotes of yours are accurate portrayals of Catholic belief, then I request that you demonstrate this by showing references from official Catholic sites that state such doctrine and that there is any standard EV or Catholic view of motherhood, matrimony and parenthood as not only not valued, but crude (as opposed to some uneducated in their faith few holding this view). The Catholics I know hold the matrimonial covenant so sacred that they do not allow divorce at all, a standard that even LDS are reluctant to accept, they view parenthood and children as so sacred that they will not interfere with it with artificial means (artificial birth control) nor will they allow abortion.

Edited October 5, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I am not sure that is what LDS Doctrine implies, but teaches against.

Would you agree that little children can "transgress" the law?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Well said.

Pa Pa, I think you would be better served with much less time on CARM, it is giving you a twisted view of other Christians. Why not look for boards that are more about sharing their own POV than trashing others?

That is good advice no matter how poorly you may think my post was. I also went on to note that growing up as Baptist is was taught differently. I thought that was showing some balance (based on my personal experience...I have no other); Guess not. I am not trashing others but relaying many experiences with others of numerous faiths. The doctrine concerning little children as outlined in Moroni which I quoted, as well as Christ from the Bible both in person "NT" and by revelation "OT" , was to make aware a point of doctrine which separates us all from all others. We believe children are not tainted with "original sin". But I have noted a more negative attitude on a number of "Christian sites" concerning marriage and motherhood. My post was a collective of them all...

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Would you agree that little children can "transgress" the law?

I believe they are sinless...in short I believe the Scriptures. I don't know that an infant can transgress anything.

[Calm]

I believe they are sinless...in short I believe the Scriptures. I don't know that an infant can transgress anything.

So if a five year old shoplifts, he is doing nothing wrong?

I agree that infants probably can't transgress unless one assumes that simply feeling anger is a transgression...which I don't (since they can't control that feeling or have any knowledge of whether or not it is appropriate it or not, I wouldn't describe them as "nurturing anger" which would be a sin in an older, more self aware individual).

But I do believe that older children who have developed the ability to reason and are just not reacting to stimuli of hunger, discomfort, etc., but acting as well as reacting can transgress in at least the same sense that we speak of Adam and Eve transgressing. People without knowledge of the law can still break the law, they are just not held accountable for that action, imo.

Edited October 5, 2011 by calmoriah

[altersteve]

I believe they are sinless...in short I believe the Scriptures. I don't know that an infant can transgress anything.

I believe the scriptures too, but there's nothing in the scriptures that says an infant can't do something "wrong." He can. But the grace of Christ covers that sin automatically, and God therefore won't hold it against him.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

So if a five year old shoplifts, he is doing nothing wrong?

I agree that infants probably can't transgress unless one assumes that simply feeling anger is a transgression...which I don't (since they can't control that feeling or have any knowledge of whether or not it is appropriate it or not, I wouldn't describe them as "nurturing anger" which would be a sin in an older, more self aware individual).

But I do believe that older children who have developed the ability to reason and are just not reacting to stimuli of hunger, discomfort, etc., but acting as well as reacting can transgress in at least the same sense that we speak of Adam and Eve transgressing. People without knowledge of the law can still break the law, they are just not held accountable for that action, imo.

This is very odd…I was banned there for defending women and the purity of little children…”Can a child transgress a law” (as you asked); yes. But as the scriptures teach the sin is upon the heads of their parents until accountable. The point of my thread and the point of LDS doctrine is that until accountable they are redeemed fully from “the fall”, the “law”, they need no Baptism, for they need no repentance nor can they be held accountable until they understand the “law” though proper teaching. Why do you think Christ sought them out…”for such is the kingdom of God”.

[LeSellers]

This issue is, to me, one of the definition of "sin".

Sin is not the simple breaking of one of God's Laws, it is the willful breaking of one of His Laws. An infant (or any child under the age of accountability) cannot willfully break that law for either (or both) of two reasons: he probably does not know the law or he does not understand the law (even if he knows it). It is for the latter of these two that I believe Adam and Eve did nt, nor could they have, "sinned" in Eden: they did not understand the law. They did n ot know what "thou shalt surely die" meant because they were innocent in the first place, and they had never seen anything die, much less would they have been able to envision themselves "dying".

A child who is not accountable may commit egregious, horrendous acts: he may gouge out the eye of another child (or his parents), he may use a weapon to kill or maim an animal or person, he may steal, he may lie. He is obviously guilty of acting badly, but he is not (in God's eyes) accountable (by definition) for that act. and the breaking of that law is covered by Christ's Atonement: he is automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God.

The problem is, as I see it, that the child who has killed or maimed another, and who does not learn better, will become a murderer or a thief or whatever because, absent a major change in his environment, he will learn that such things are normal and acceptable. That's why parents must reach using strict discipline, including corporal punishment when the transgression and the child merit it. He who spareth his rod [either wood or iron] hateth his son; but he that loveth him chasteneth him quickly.

Lehi

Edited October 5, 2011 by LeSellers

[Calm]

I don't think anyone here would disagree as long as we are clear with how each is using their terms, as Lehi states, the issue depends on definition.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I don't think anyone here would disagree as long as we are clear with how each is using their terms, as Lehi states, the issue depends on definition.

Or we can see little children as God does, worthy to enter into his presence and lay aside any semantics. I am not a very smart guy…so I am going with the scriptures on this one.

[Calm]

Or we can see little children as God does, worthy to enter into his presence and lay aside any semantics. I am not a very smart guy…so I am going with the scriptures on this one.

But why do the scriptures teach they are worthy, how are they worthy...is it inherent in them or is it through God's grace? Isn't that what people are actually discussing here?

[LeSellers]

as the scriptures teach the sin is upon the heads of their parents until accountable.

We should be careful here, because, while the scripture does state that "the sin be upon the heads of the parents", it does not say "the child's sins be upon [their] heads".

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

26 For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized.

27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.

28 And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord.

The sin that will fall on the parents' heads is the one of failing to teach them to be baptized, and then impelling the child to follow through on his knowledge.

Lehi

[Zakuska]

Some verses that I think are pertinant to the conversation, which seem to point to an age of accountability.

Isa 7

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Romans 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Heb 5

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Zakuska

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

But why do the scriptures teach they are worthy, how are they worthy...is it inherent in them or is it through God's grace? Isn't that what people are actually discussing here?

Agreed, I am sure though it is His Grace. What I am not sure of is if just sinless by nature or because He deems it so. All I know is the baby I lost is with Him...my only hope is that I will be too.