On Hell

[Maidservant]

2 Ne 9:12 Hell is spiritual death

Psalm 116:3 The pains of hell

Psalm 86:13 Mercy delivers a soul from hell

2 Samuel 22:6 The sorrows of hell

2 Ne 33:6 experience of being redeemed from hell

Alma 13:30 Hell = chains, second death

1 Ne 12:16 "the depths of hell" represented by a river (possible implication that a physical representation [river] works to show what the spiritual nature of hell is)

D & C 6:34 hell combines against saints

D & C 10:26 souls are dragged down to hell (implication: any time they allow themselves to be led by the Adversary; death or afterlife as a condition is not implicated here)

Alma 48:17 powers of hell are powers over the hearts of men

2 Ne 1:13 the sleep of hell

2 Ne 9:10 hell = the death of the spirit

there are a lot of verses that speak of the "gates of hell" and whether or not they can "prevail" against a person (or being protected from that

Alma 12:11 "And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell." Here we see hell to be a hard heart and a loss of spiritual knowledge

more soon

[Maidservant]

2 Ne 4:32 the gates of hell are shut by the heart (contrite spirit and broken heart)

Alma the Younger's experience of hell and being redeemed from hell (and he was lying on his bed the whole time, as far as 'place' goes)

Alma 14:6 Zeezrom being harrowed up by his guilt = hell

2 Ne 9:16 "their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone" (my italics)

see also Helaman 14:8, Jacob 6:10, Mosiah 3:27

there are a lot of scriptures about being thrust down to hell or similar images, but even this is a representation of experience

So hundreds and hundreds of scriptures discuss damnation, hell, fire, being cast and so on and so forth as being a condition of MAN

And then we do have a few that add this:

Moroni 9:4 "Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your ^afilthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the ^bdamned souls in ^chell." But even in this passage, it is best not to use it as a proof text per se. In the whole chapter, Moroni is talking about how things might become too late for people if they don't repent and even he in verse 3 discusses being wracked with consciousness of guilt and represents this in verse 5 as unquenchable fire. Also if one wanted to get nitpicky this verse doesn't say THAT mechanistically speaking a person would dwell with the damned souls in hell, but that one would be more comfortable dwelling with other damned souls.

1 Ne 15:34-5 (and all chapter) "there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy" Which makes sense, but the PEOPLE that are filthy come first, necessitating thereafter a place for them. And interestingly enough, he goes on to ascribe hell as a generated not by God but "the devil is the perpetrator of it". For the "final state of the SOULS of men" is that they will be cast out (that is God's act) . . . and what is waiting for them thereafter is the captivity of the devil. But even here in this passage, Nephi is making descriptions just short of mechanistic literality because he uses the image of the tree of life to discuss the state of the righteous. These passages, while they do add the necessary idea of a place, still are discussing righteousness and hell in terms of our choices and the consequences of them . . . . not how to get tickets to great reservations or camps or real estate called "heaven" and hell"

D&C 29:38 "And behold there is a place prepared for them from the beginning which place is hell" Again, while this is an important addition to understanding, this also cannot be a proof text per se. D & C 29 has some very valuable doctrine or information, and in fact is discussing pre-mortal choices, the Adam and Eve choices, etc. And not all of this discussion is mechanistic. In fact, if you take verse 37 with verse 38, where they are "thrust down" and then it says "hell", one might think that earth is hell (which is not far off, for many children of God). You also have verse 40 where Adam becomes subject to the will of the devil (in partaking of the fruit) . . . so is Adam in hell? Anyway, section 29 is very wonderful, but it needs to be read as a whole and in connection with other scriptural knowledge on the same subjects

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Don't get me wrong. "Place" is inseparable from "person". All people take up space (law of physics), and therefore have place. Much of the gospel and our covenants has a LOT to do with space and place . . . making home a heaven, the city of God shown in Revelation, the OT covenants of land to Abraham and descendants, law of consecration, and yes, even hell. If we enjoy a millenial peace free from the power of hell and devil and captivity and violence and etc etc . . . we will most definitely have a PLACE full of PEOPLE who are living (at least) the terrestrial law . . . and there will be none there who would make it a hell, as our hearts will have bound the Adversary. So it follows that if there are any other PEOPLE (bodies, spirits, both) that exist who cannot (yet) live a terrestrial law, yes, they will be in another PLACE.

But also, there is no wrangling to do over the scriptures about "who is going to go where and when". Whatever we ARE at any given point IS heaven or hell (so to speak). Granted, at some point, if not individually, then perhaps at some mass moments, many people are going to have their eyes opened as to what their sins really are and have been, and that will cause torment in them . . . or us, as I'm not sure any of us are going to be free from these realizations . . . but then like Alma the Younger, we will be able to call upon the name of Jesus Christ and begin the ascent of redemption. I can't imagine too many people (children of God) denying themselves this opportunity once they truly understand it. But these types of things have very little to do with whether we are in or out of our body, only what journey of life we happen to choose and any interventions God offers us (that we may or may not take).

[CV75]

Cobalt has said it best, and provided some basis for this, but I am one who sees that the scriptures teach that hell is a condition of soul (heart).

I was just reading 2 Nephi 1:13-15 this morning!

[zerinus]

I don’t think the manual is trying to restate what Peter said, but present his message about preaching the Gospel in prison with the light of modern revelation. The manual is describing what Peter did or meant more than what he actually said. Still, in talking about the prison, Peter was clearly referring to at least one aspect of the postmortal spirit world.

In other words, the manual is trying to read Peter’s mind, rather than restate what he said! Well, if that is what it is trying to do, then I don’t think it is doing a good job of it. I don’t see how we can attempt to read Peter’s mind by disregarding what he actually says. And what he actually says, when viewed in the context of the rest of the scriptures paints a different picture. This is what he says:

1 Peter 3:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I agree that there is nothing in the verse that restricts the “prison” exclusively to the antediluvian sinners; but it does suggest that the “prison” is something that is reserved for the wicked, not for the righteous. Now if we didn’t have any other scriptures to help us with that, the ambiguity might remain; but modern revelation removes the ambiguity.

D&C 138:

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

Moses 7:

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.

39 And That which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment;

If it is a matter of trying to read Peter’s mind, I think we can do a better job of that by taking the above scriptures into consideration; and I don’t see how after reading the above one can conclude that by the “spirits in prison” Peter meant all of the spirit world, or the righteous as well as the wicked.

It seems that Peter was talking about the postmortal world as he knew and understood it, or as he conceptualized it (as a prison), using an extremely small group of people (those who were disobedient while the ark was being prepared) to illustrate the key point that the redemptive love and power of Christ is extended even to the most disobedient (and by extension, to those who are less disobedient but who are appropriately in prison as well).

The verses do not disallow that other people and types than those relatively few disobedient souls who heard Noah’s preaching would also be in that prison and be offered redemption (those that didn’t hear Noah or other patriarchs/prophets on either side of the flood). This is where our modern revelation completes the picture.

I agree that Peter’s words do not disallow other sinners besides the antediluvians being in “spirit prison;” but in the light of the other scriptures quoted (as well as what Alma has said about the state of the departed spirits in the spirit world); I think it excludes the righteous spirits being in “spirit prison”.

But I would still maintain that there is something in these verses (I Peter 3:18-22) that demonstrates that Peter may have held the idea that prison is for all not-yet resurrected souls and heaven is for resurrected souls, by following Christ from His visit to the prison as a spirit to His return to the Father in His resurrected state. Viewing the after-life, pre-resurrection state as a form of prison for even the disciples of Christ is reflected in D&C 45:16-17; and since Peter heard the Savior describe it this way first-hand, he may have colored the after-life / postmortal spirit world as a prison.

Sorry, I don’t see it that way! I think we can credit Peter with more spiritual insight than that. He was not only the chief of the Apostles, but a great prophet and seer. He would have had the ability to see what was going on in the spirit world, and he would have had a better knowledge of it than you are trying to give him credit for.

I think the spirit world can be considered a prison when its inhabitants are still held captive by death. Christ liberates the captive from the prison of death in this sense (death being experienced in the spirit world). Sometimes "bonds" of is used.

If it does, then that is not the way in which that word is used in all the scriptures cited, or indeed in the way in which it is used by LDS. I have many times heard LDS talk about the temple work for the dead as a means of rescuing them from the “spirit prison”. By that they did not mean that they were “resurrecting” them. If that interpretation is correct, the only way that you could rescue people from that “prison” would be by resurrecting them, which temple work for the dead does not immediately do. If, on the other hand, temple work for the dead (combined with gospel preaching and repentance in the spirit world) rescues them from that place or condition of torment that they are in, called spirit prison, and puts them in a happier state, then obviously their former misery and subsequent happiness cannot both be describes as “spirit prison”.

Edited September 30, 2011 by zerinus

[zerinus]

I've said two different (albeit related) things.

One, that the post-mortal spirit world is divided between Spirit Prison (à la, e.g., Peter and Joseph F. Smith) and Paradise. The two are not coincidental.

Second, that there is a scriptural basis for conflating the two as "spirit prison", a position I do not take.

Which of the two is it you disagree with?

The second. There is no "scriptural basis for conflating the two as spirit prison;" because the term "spirit prison," or more accurately, the word "prison," is already reserved by scriptural use for a state or condition of the wicked in the spirit world; and therefore using is with a totally different meaning that is not supported by scriptural usage causes confusion leading to error in doctrine.

BTW, I've never heard (or, at worst, don't recall) anyone ever saying "spirit prison" and meaning the whole of the post-mortal spirit world. It might be interesting were you to give some examples in support of your (I believe baseless) charge that there is a "tendency" for us Saints to conflate the two terms.

I have, lots of time. LDS often refer to temple work for the dead as a means of rescuing people from "spirit prison," without regard to how wicked or righteous those spirits might have been, with the obvious meaning that they are referring to all the spirits in the spirit world, not just the wicked. Indeed, in this thread several people have defended that assumption.

Edited September 30, 2011 by zerinus

[CV75]

In other words, the manual is trying to read Peter’s mind,

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I agree that Peter’s words do not disallow other sinners besides the antediluvians being in “spirit prison;” but in the light of the other scriptures quoted (as well as what Alma has said about the state of the departed spirits in the spirit world); I think it excludes the righteous spirits being in “spirit prison”.

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I think we can credit Peter with more spiritual insight than that.

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that is not the way in which that word is used

I think “mind-reading” is a mischaracterization. The manual says Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, because in these and surrounding verses, he is not instructing the saints about the spirit world, prison, or preaching to the dead, but only referring to in presenting his key message, which is not about preaching to the dead in the spirit prison. Because only a reference is made (seemingly as I Cor. 15:29 is in that book), he is speaking to an audience that already understands the concept. This is how he manual is saying what Peter meant.

His real message is about why it is better for the saints suffer for well-doing than for evil-doing. He makes this larger point by describing the vast scope of Christ’s mission in redeeming mankind by suffering for our sins in this world, descending into death and serving further (even extending his redemption to the disobedient who will hear), and finally ascending to His throne and overseeing things from there.

Because his reference is only passing, and the other details of the goings-on and inhabitants of the spirit world do not make the point for his key message as strongly, it provides very limited information about a topic he is not fully addressing, but which the manual is.

I think that Peter must have been broad-minded enough to see the spirit world as a prison for even the righteous, and heaven as a place where we are liberated from death (regardless of the kingdom we inherit), as I described earlier from the scriptures. There are plenty of other scriptures that show death (the end of mortal life, separation of the spirit from the body, the spirit world) as a form of captivity and bondage, in other words, a prison, and the resurrection as Christ using the keys to liberate (D&C 138:18; 2 Nephi 9:12; Isaiah 14:9; Revelation 1:18, 20:13). So I don't see the idea of the spirit world being a prison never being referred to as such in the scriptures. For this reason, if this is how he was approaching his reference in I Peter 3, a prison-and-heaven construct for the afterlife is consistent with a prophet's understanding of gospel principles.

[zerinus]

I think “mind-reading” is a mischaracterization. The manual says Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, because in these and surrounding verses, he is not instructing the saints about the spirit world, prison, or preaching to the dead, but only referring to in presenting his key message, which is not about preaching to the dead in the spirit prison. Because only a reference is made (seemingly as I Cor. 15:29 is in that book), he is speaking to an audience that already understands the concept. This is how he manual is saying what Peter meant.

His real message is about why it is better for the saints suffer for well-doing than for evil-doing. He makes this larger point by describing the vast scope of Christ’s mission in redeeming mankind by suffering for our sins in this world, descending into death and serving further (even extending his redemption to the disobedient who will hear), and finally ascending to His throne and overseeing things from there.

Because his reference is only passing, and the other details of the goings-on and inhabitants of the spirit world do not make the point for his key message as strongly, it provides very limited information about a topic he is not fully addressing, but which the manual is.

Agreed; but how does that justify us in concluding that by the “spirits in prison” Peter was referring to the whole of the spirit world, or all the spirits in spirit world, rather than just to “outer darkness” to which the wicked spirits are confined? (Alma 40:13)

I think that Peter must have been broad-minded enough to see the spirit world as a prison for even the righteous, and heaven as a place where we are liberated from death (regardless of the kingdom we inherit), as I described earlier from the scriptures.

I find the whole of that premise objectionable, because it implies that regarding all the spirit-world as a “spirit prison” is somehow more “broad-minded” than not. I don’t accept that premise at all. I think it is just sloppy theological thinking (at best) to equate what is referred to in D&C 45:17; 138:50; with what is referred to in 1 Peter 3:19; Moses 7:38; because they are simply not intended to convey the same idea. They are talking about two very different things.

There are plenty of other scriptures that show death (the end of mortal life, separation of the spirit from the body, the spirit world) as a form of captivity and bondage, in other words, a prison, and the resurrection as Christ using the keys to liberate (D&C 138:18; 2 Nephi 9:12; Isaiah 14:9; Revelation 1:18, 20:13). So I don't see the idea of the spirit world being a prison never being referred to as such in the scriptures. For this reason, if this is how he was approaching his reference in I Peter 3, a prison-and-heaven construct for the afterlife is consistent with a prophet's understanding of gospel principles.

See above. The problem with that reasoning is that it confuses two different, contradictory phenomena. One is the heIIish state in the spirit world, where the wicked are confined; the other is the heavenly place in the spirit world, where the righteous are assigned. The only escape from the former is through repentance. The only escape from the latter is through resurrection. I don’t think that Peter was so sloppy in his thinking as to confuse the two—the Gospel Principles manual notwithstanding!

Edited October 1, 2011 by zerinus

[CV75]

Agreed; but how does that justify us in concluding that by the “spirits in prison” Peter was referring to the whole of the spirit world

I’m not sure how many ways I can say it, but Peter referred to the spirit world as a prison because he alluded to it or caused us to consider or to turn our attention to it by virtue of placing the prison in the afterlife. The spirit world was indeed a prison for the disobedient he mentioned in the relevant verses.

One key to understanding that the manual is correct (and the arguments in support of it) is that words such as “heaven” and “hell” have multiple meanings and levels of meaning, each a true and non-contradicting principle when considered in context and by the standard of revealed LDS doctrine.

Though you haven’t provided a satisfactory explanation as to why the manual is incorrect, the tone and choice of words in your posts leads me to suggest that you not bother (for my sake, anyway) since further discussion doesn’t appear productive.

Edited October 3, 2011 by CV75

[zerinus]

I’m not sure how many ways I can say it, but Peter referred to the spirit world as a prison because he alluded to it or caused us to consider or to turn our attention to it by virtue of placing the prison in the afterlife. The spirit world was indeed a prison for the disobedient he mentioned in the relevant verses.

One key to understanding that the manual is correct (and the arguments in support of it) is that words such as “heaven” and “hell” have multiple meanings and levels of meaning, each a true and non-contradicting principle when considered in context and by the standard of revealed LDS doctrine.

Though you haven’t provided a satisfactory explanation as to why the manual is incorrect, the tone and choice of words in your posts leads me to suggest that you not bother (for my sake, anyway) since further discussion doesn’t appear productive.

I am sure you are sincere in your beliefs; but let me assure you that I am equally sincere in my belief that that is not the correct way to interpret the teachings of St. Peter, especially in the light of what was said in Alma 40:11-14; D&C 138:28-29; and Moses 7:36-39. If the Church, or those who wrote the Gospel Principles Manual, genuinely believe that referring to the whole of the spirit world as a "spirit prison" is the way to go, for reasons best known to themselves, I can't argue with that. But if that is the case, then they will be doing themselves a favor by not attempting to recruit Peter as the champion of their cause, because that argument simply does not add up from a scriptural point of view, as far as I can tell.

Edited October 4, 2011 by zerinus

[Rob Osborn]

Perhaps i am not understanding what you guys are debating but it seems very apparent that the scriptures and manual alike both view the spirit world as being divided into two separate and distinct places- one called "hell" and the other called "paradise". So what is the debate over? I am really confused.