On Hell

[LeSellers]

There is a tendency in the LDS Church to refer to the whole of the spirit world as a "spirit prison," for which I see no scriptural justification.

Section 138 says that the dead looked on the absence of their bodies as a bondage.

If "prison" is a place where one is in bonds, than the entire post-mortal spirit world is a prison.

Lehi

Edited September 28, 2011 by LeSellers

[volgadon]

Well, I intend to visit. There are a few people whose suffering I want to snicker at.

I'm joking.........mostly.

P: Eh, eh, hang on! Em hang on! Em, em, eh, how do we know you're his wife?

LF: What?

P: Em, well, you know, you could be a gloater.

LF: I beg pardon.

P: You know, a gloater, eh, come to gloat over the condemned man. I mean

we're up to our ears is gloaters here. "Can I come in for a gloat?" they

shout and we shout back "Oh you heartless gloaters".

[altersteve]

I ask again....Does God get what He wants?

Not always. He wouldn't have given us agency if He did. He wants all of His children to live with Him after this life is over, but that's not going to happen.

Edited September 28, 2011 by altersteve

[Rob Osborn]

It seems rather apparent that hell/ spirit prison is a separate physical place outside of paradise. Is hell also a state of mind? In a sense it is, but that is not the best language. Hell is by definition a physical place with bad conditions.

[zerinus]

Section 138 says that the dead looked on the absence of their bodies as a bondage.

if "prison" is a place where on is in bonds, than the entire post-mortal spirit world is a prison.

Lehi

That is the wrong way of looking at it. The spirit world is clearly divided into two parts, the place where the wicked go, variously called hell, spirit prison, outer darkness etc.; and the place where the righteous go, variously called heaven and Paradise. Those who are in the former place are in a state of punishment and torment for their sins committed in mortality, whereas those in the latter place are in a state of joy, happiness, and peace for their virtue and righteousness. Regarding the "absence of spirits from bodies as bondage" describes a different phenomenon altogether; and the two metaphors should not be mixed up. In the scriptures, the metaphor of "prison" is reserved exclusively for the former place, not to the whole of the spirit world.

[altersteve]

From my perspective, when a non-LDS Christian mentions heaven or hell, they're referring to spirit paradise or spirit prison. I think that approach is much more effective when discussing the heaven/hell concept with evangelicals.

[zerinus]

From my perspective, when a non-LDS Christian mentions heaven or hell, they're referring to spirit paradise or spirit prison. I think that approach is much more effective when discussing the heaven/hell concept with evangelicals.

The argument is much broader than the context of our interactions with the Evangelicals. It is simply false doctrine to refer to the whole of the spirit world as a "spirit prison". It is false doctrine whether you regard it from a purely biblical point of view, or regard it in the the broader context of the Bible plus additional LDS scripture. No scripture supports that interpretation.

[altersteve]

The argument is much broader than the context of our interactions with the Evangelicals. It is simply false doctrine to refer to the whole of the spirit world as a "spirit prison". It is false doctrine whether you regard it from a purely biblical point of view, or regard it in the the broader context of the Bible plus additional LDS scripture. No scripture supports that interpretation.

Sorry, I wasn't responding to what you said, I was simply making an off-hand statement. My apologies for not making that clear. Maybe it was a little random.

[CV75]

Thank you for your explanation; but I still find this quote problematic: "The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison". It does not appear to me to be an accurate restatement of what Peter had said.

I don’t think the manual is trying to restate what Peter said, but present his message about preaching the Gospel in prison with the light of modern revelation. The manual is describing what Peter did or meant more than what he actually said. Still, in talking about the prison, Peter was clearly referring to at least one aspect of the postmortal spirit world.

It seems that Peter was talking about the postmortal world as he knew and understood it, or as he conceptualized it (as a prison), using an extremely small group of people (those who were disobedient while the ark was being prepared) to illustrate the key point that the redemptive love and power of Christ is extended even to the most disobedient (and by extension, to those who are less disobedient but who are appropriately in prison as well).

The verses do not disallow that other people and types than those relatively few disobedient souls who heard Noah’s preaching would also be in that prison and be offered redemption (those that didn’t hear Noah or other patriarchs/prophets on either side of the flood). This is where our modern revelation completes the picture.

But I would still maintain that there is something in these verses (I Peter 3:18-22) that demonstrates that Peter may have held the idea that prison is for all not-yet resurrected souls and heaven is for resurrected souls, by following Christ from His visit to the prison as a spirit to His return to the Father in His resurrected state. Viewing the after-life, pre-resurrection state as a form of prison for even the disciples of Christ is reflected in D&C 45:16-17; and since Peter heard the Savior describe it this way first-hand, he may have colored the after-life / postmortal spirit world as a prison.

[CV75]

I fail to see it. Peter is clearly referring to the spirits of those who had perished in the Flood. He is not referring to the whole of the spirit world.

There is a tendency in the LDS Church to refer to the whole of the spirit world as a "spirit prison," for which I see no scriptural justification.

Please see my previous post (#34) which I think addresses these comments.

[CV75]

In the scriptures, the metaphor of "prison" is reserved exclusively for the former place, not to the whole of the spirit world.

I think the spirit world can be considered a prison when its inhabitants are still held captive by death. Christ liberates the captive from the prison of death in this sense (death being experienced in the spirit world). Sometimes "bonds" of is used.

[Cobalt-70]

I haven't a clue what you are talking about. The ideas you present are alien to the Mormonism I know anything about.

You should read Joseph Smith's King Follett sermon then. The best source for it is Stan Larson's BYU Studies amalgamation at http://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=5321

[Cobalt-70]

It seems rather apparent that hell/ spirit prison is a separate physical place outside of paradise. Is hell also a state of mind? In a sense it is, but that is not the best language. Hell is by definition a physical place with bad conditions.

According to Joseph Smith, "Hades, Shaoele, paradise, spirits in prison, are all one: it is the world of spirits. The righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits until resurrection." (DHC vol. 5, p. 425).

[Rob Osborn]

According to Joseph Smith, "Hades, Shaoele, paradise, spirits in prison, are all one: it is the world of spirits. The righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits until resurrection." (DHC vol. 5, p. 425).

However one wants to say it is fine but the truth is that paradise and spirit prison are in two separate places- the wicked do not mingle in the same place nor have access to the same place as the righteous. In section 138 speaking of Christ's visit to the spirit world it says that he did not go personally to where the wicked are but only to where the righteous were. From that location he prepared spirits to go and preach to the wicked who were in a different place, that place being spirit prison.

[Mudcat]

Well, I intend to visit. There are a few people whose suffering I want to snicker at.

I'm joking.........mostly.

LOL..

I suppose I keep forgetting LDS seem to actually make plans on going to hell.

[LeSellers]

There is a tendency in the LDS Church to refer to the whole of the spirit world as a "spirit prison," for which I see no scriptural justification.

Section 138 says that the dead looked on the absence of their bodies as a bondage.

If "prison" is a place where one is in bonds, than the entire post-mortal spirit world is a prison.

That is the wrong way of looking at it.

You said there was no scriptural justification for a "tendency" to call the entire post-mortal spirit wolrd "prison".

My response was to show (and I believe did show) that thre was some justification for other people's doing so.

You claim that it's the wrojng way to look at it.

I'd ask, first, who authorized you to declare the wrong way (or, conversely, the right way) to look at any scripture.

I'd ask, secondly, if you read into my statement that I, personally, believe the "spirit prison" is a legitimate label for the whole of the post-mortal spirit world. (The answer, from my vantage point, is "I believe you did, and did so erroneously.")

Lehi

[LeSellers]

I suppose I keep forgetting LDS seem to actually make plans on going to hell.

Only to visit, Mudcat, only to visit.

Lehi

[KevinG]

LOL..

I suppose I keep forgetting LDS seem to actually make plans on going to hell.

Only to visit, Mudcat, only to visit.

Lehi

I've been invited to go there so many times by other Christians it seems rude not to at least accept the occastional invitation.

[zerinus]

You said there was no scriptural justification for a "tendency" to call the entire post-mortal spirit wolrd "prison".

My response was to show (and I believe did show) that thre was some justification for other people's doing so.

You claim that it's the wrojng way to look at it.

I'd ask, first, who authorized you to declare the wrong way (or, conversely, the right way) to look at any scripture.

I'd ask, secondly, if you read into my statement that I, personally, believe the "spirit prison" is a legitimate label for the whole of the post-mortal spirit world. (The answer, from my vantage point, is "I believe you did, and did so erroneously.")

Lehi

You are free to believe whatever you like. I think I have given you enough justification for believing that what you believe is wrong.

[LeSellers]

You are free to believe whatever you like. I think I have given you enough justification for believing that what you believe is wrong.

I believe you don't know what I believe (in spite of my making an unequivocal statement on the issue).

In short, I believe the same thing you do on this matter. However, I can see a scriptural basis for using the term "spirit prison" to refer to all of the post-mortal spirit world. Is that clear enough?

Lehi

[Cobalt-70]

However one wants to say it is fine but the truth is that paradise and spirit prison are in two separate places- the wicked do not mingle in the same place nor have access to the same place as the righteous. In section 138 speaking of Christ's visit to the spirit world it says that he did not go personally to where the wicked are but only to where the righteous were. From that location he prepared spirits to go and preach to the wicked who were in a different place, that place being spirit prison.

But I think the typical LDS image of a "paradise" and "spirit prison" as being separate places like the "heaven" and "hell" of classical Christianity is incorrect (at least according to Smith). It would be presumably be like the material world--there are places where Mormons gather (like temples), and there are places where they do not. But it is the same world.

In another Joseph Smith quote (his King Follett sermon), Smith also said that people are damned by the torment of their own guilt, rather than actual hellfire, and that as soon as a wicked spirit in the spirit world agrees to obey Jesus, they are saved. So it appears not to be true (at least according to Smith circa 1843-44) that the spirits of the wicked are stuck in some literal spirit jail until the resurrection.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[zerinus]

I believe you don't know what I believe (in spite of my making an unequivocal statement on the issue).

In short, I believe the same thing you do on this matter. However, I can see a scriptural basis for using the term "spirit prison" to refer to all of the post-mortal spirit world. Is that clear enough?

Lehi

Yes, what you are saying is perfectly clear; and I disagree with it.

[Rob Osborn]

But I think the typical LDS image of a "paradise" and "spirit prison" as being separate places like the "heaven" and "hell" of classical Christianity is incorrect (at least according to Smith). It would be presumably be like the material world--there are places where Mormons gather (like temples), and there are places where they do not. But it is the same world.

In another Joseph Smith quote (his King Follett sermon), Smith also said that people are damned by the torment of their own guilt, rather than actual hellfire, and that as soon as a wicked spirit in the spirit world agrees to obey Jesus, they are saved. So it appears not to be true (at least according to Smith circa 1843-44) that the spirits of the wicked are stuck in some literal spirit jail until the resurrection.

We are talking about the location of hell. Hell is not the same physical place as paradise. I fully agree that spirits aren't stuck in spirit prison until resurrection, I just disagree that paradise and hell are in the same physical place- they are not. Sure, it may even be on the same world, but the actual physical locations accessed by those in paradise are forbidden those in the spirit prison.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Rob Osborn

[LeSellers]

Yes, what you are saying is perfectly clear; and I disagree with it.

I've said two different (albeit related) things.

One, that the post-mortal spirit world is divided between Spirit Prison (à la, e.g., Peter and Joseph F. Smith) and Paradise. The two are not coincidental.

Second, that there is a scriptural basis for conflating the two as "spirit prison", a position I do not take.

Which of the two is it you disagree with?

BTW, I've never heard (or, at worst, don't recall) anyone ever saying "spirit prison" and meaning the whole of the post-mortal spirit world. It might be interesting were you to give some examples in support of your (I believe baseless) charge that there is a "tendency" for us Saints to conflate the two terms.

Lehi

[Maidservant]

Cobalt has said it best, and provided some basis for this, but I am one who sees that the scriptures teach that hell is a condition of soul (heart). That there may be some place or location involved is completely secondary. It is like having a crack house or den. Yes, crack houses exist as a place. Yes, the only people likely to be there are crack addicts, their innocent children they may have brought with them (so they are in hell? (yes)), and, eventually, a narcotics swat team. But the PLACE only exists because the SOUL CONDITION existed first.

One thing I always love that Joseph Smith said was that if we found ourselves in hell (the sectarian version), we would turn the devils out and make it a heaven. Because PEOPLE and who they are make it heaven or hell, not the PLACE itself, by some accident of an incorrect religious confession or lack of sacrament while in a mortal body.

If you are in the captivity of the Adversary, whether by your own acts or by the acts of others, whether ignorantly, deliberately, foolishing, weakly, rebelliously, etc . . . then your hell follows you everywhere, you carry it with you wherever you go, whether in a body or out of it.

Obviously, for those who wish to persist in their misery and selfishness (who cannot be persuaded to any progression at any point), there will be a place (or places) for them, which we term outer darkness in our religious jargon. But even that is a gift in some sense . . . a place given for everyone of God's children, to live how they wish . . . and of course the consequences of those wishes.

I will give Book of Mormon stuff soon.