The "Immaterial God" Eating "Material" Lunch With Abraham?

[Zakuska]

For those who beleive that God doesn't have a Physical Body. (Rob, Jestress, and others) I've always wondered how you can reconcile that idea with this story.

Genesis 18

1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3 And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:

5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.

7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.

8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

9 ¶And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

16 ¶And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

23 ¶And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty’s sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty’s sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.

33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

1) Here we see the Lord (YHWH) appearing (not in a vision or a dream) but physically to Abraham. (v 1)

2) He is identified as one of the three MEN who Abraham saw and prepared Lunch for. ( v 2, 8 )

3) These men have actual physical feet that can be washed, for Abraham offers. ( v 4 )

4) He has a conversation with both Abraham and Sarah and catchs Sarah fibbing that she didn't laugh (v 15)

5) Verse 21 appears that the LORD doesn't know if Sodom and Gomorrah is sinful or not and that he is going to go investigate to verify if what he has heard about it is true.

6) Two of the "Men" head off to go to Sodom and Gomorrah (v 22)

7) YHWH and Abraham are standing talking with each other and get into a haggling match over Sodom and Gomorrah. (23-32)

8 ) YHWH walks away and so does Abraham.

Note: This is not a vision or a dream. It's an actual Physical Manifestation of YHWH who eats the food Abraham prepares for him whos feet Abraham offers to wash.

If this is Christ.

1) How did he get a body that could eat Food and have his feet Washed?

2) At this time Christ would have been a Spirit (He won't encarnate for another 1000+ years) so is this Body he has a "spirit body"?

3) Or did he temporarily posses the body of an innocent by stander to walk around and destroy Sodom and Gomorrah in?

If this is God the Father

1) I thought he was Invisible and couldn't be seen?

2) Did God the Father perform some sort of Miracle and decieve Abraham into seeing him?

3) Did God posses an innocent by stander?

4) This also causes big problems for the Gospel of John because God supposedly has never been seen.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Zakuska

[Robert F. Smith]

For those who beleive that God doesn't have a Physical Body. (Rob, Jestress, and others) I've always wondered how you can reconcile that idea with this story.

Genesis 18:1-33

1) Here we see the Lord (YHWH) appearing (not in a vision or a dream) but physically to Abraham. (v 1)

2) He is identified as one of the three MEN who Abraham saw and prepared Lunch for. ( v 2, 8 )

3) These men have actual physical feet that can be washed, for Abraham offers. ( v 4 )

4) He has a conversation with both Abraham and Sarah and catchs Sarah fibbing that she didn't laugh (v 15)

5) Verse 21 appears that the LORD doesn't know if Sodom and Gomorrah is sinful or not and that he is going to go investigate to verify if what he has heard about it is true.

6) Two of the "Men" head off to go to Sodom and Gomorrah (v 22)

7) YHWH and Abraham are standing talking with each other and get into a haggling match over Sodom and Gomorrah. (23-32)

8 ) YHWH walks away and so does Abraham.

Note: This is not a vision or a dream. It's an actual Physical Manifestation of YHWH who eats the food Abraham prepares for him whos feet Abraham offers to wash.

If this is Christ.

1) How did he get a body that could eat Food and have his feet Washed?

2) At this time Christ would have been a Spirit (He won't encarnate for another 1000+ years) so is this Body he has a "spirit body"?

3) Or did he temporarily posses the body of an innocent by stander to walk around and destroy Sodom and Gomorrah in?

If this is God the Father

1) I thought he was Invisible and couldn't be seen?

2) Did God the Father perform some sort of Miracle and decieve Abraham into seeing him?

3) Did God posses an innocent by stander?

4) This also causes big problems for the Gospel of John because God supposedly has never been seen.

Apostate christianity (following Greek philosophical norms) considers spirit to be immaterial. The correct belief, which the biblical text makes clear here and elsewhere, is that spirit is a material substance -- simply more refined than earthly materials. Cf. Cf. Joseph Smith: “There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter but is more fine or pure and can only be discerned by purer eyes. We can’t see it but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter” -- William Clayton Journal, May 17, 1843; D&C 131:7-8 ; Orson Pratt, The Absurdities of Immaterialism, Liverpool: R. James, 1849, which is available online at Google Books.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[Storm Rider]

For Christians, including LDS, the most honest answer that I have ever heard was, "that is a problematic verse(s) for me". There is no attempt to rationalize or explain away, just a frank admission that it conflicted with their beliefs and they did not know why. Some verses are more easily answered by looking at context of the chapter; others the context of how the topic was handled elsewhere.

The worst form of answer is to ignore the verse and point to another verse that states what appears to conflict or limit the scope (the need to be baptized for example versus simply having faith). These kinds of answers balkanize the Bible into personal sections that are more highly prized than others and ignoring everything else.

How will the response be to these verses? It will be interesting, but you could line up an additional 50 different versus that conflicts with Biblical understanding of most orthodox Christians and they would all, generally, be rationalized away.

[orion88]

For those who beleive that God doesn't have a Physical Body. (Rob, Jestress, and others) I've always wondered how you can reconcile that idea with this story.

Genesis 18 ... <snip the rest>

If this is Christ.

1) How did he get a body that could eat Food and have his feet Washed?

2) At this time Christ would have been a Spirit (He won't encarnate for another 1000+ years) so is this Body he has a "spirit body"?

3) Or did he temporarily posses the body of an innocent by stander to walk around and destroy Sodom and Gomorrah in?

If this is God the Father

1) I thought he was Invisible and couldn't be seen?

2) Did God the Father perform some sort of Miracle and decieve Abraham into seeing him?

3) Did God posses an innocent by stander?

4) This also causes big problems for the Gospel of John because God supposedly has never been seen.

If I understand LDS theology correctly, God the Father is taught to have a physical body.

I saw this in the Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, chapter 2,

page 4, "The Father has never dealt with man directly and personally since the fall, and

he has never appeared except to introduce and bear record of the Son” (Joseph

Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:27)."

In regards to your other point, it could have been Christ. If he can suddenly appear to his

disciples in the room where they were waiting while he had a physical glorified body, then

I think he could exercise his power to eat as a spirit being. You have a little similar teaching

in another idea of LDS theology - Heavenly Father and Mother (as physical beings) begat

spiritual children

Another poster mentioned already that Joseph Smith taught all spirit is matter.

Tony

[Zakuska]

If I understand LDS theology correctly, God the Father is taught to have a physical body.

I saw this in the Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, chapter 2,

page 4, "The Father has never dealt with man directly and personally since the fall, and

he has never appeared except to introduce and bear record of the Son” (Joseph

Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:27)."

In regards to your other point, it could have been Christ. If he can suddenly appear to his

disciples in the room where they were waiting while he had a physical glorified body, then

I think he could exercise his power to eat as a spirit being. You have a little similar teaching

in another idea of LDS theology - Heavenly Father and Mother (as physical beings) begat

spiritual children

Another poster mentioned already that Joseph Smith taught all spirit is matter.

Tony

Or perhaps he traveled through time after the ressurection to appear to Abraham in his Glorified Physical Immortal Body?

Edited September 24, 2011 by Zakuska

[Tarski]

I don't see it.

Abraham saw the Lord in a vision while in the door of his tent. Then he looked up. (away from his inner vision?)

He saw three men (MEN) and went to them.

He (inwardly) asked the Lord to be with him (while he interacted with the men).

He got the men some beef and watched the men eat.

Where did the Lord eat?

Edited September 25, 2011 by Tarski

[zerinus]

For those who beleive that God doesn't have a Physical Body. (Rob, Jestress, and others) I've always wondered how you can reconcile that idea with this story.

* * *

I have a better one. How did Jacob wrestle with God until break of day (Genesis 32:24-30) if God had no body?

[Flyonthewall]

I have a better one. How did Jacob wrestle with God until break of day (Genesis 32:24-30) if God had no body?

That was an angel...oh wait...same problem....

[Tarski]

I don't see it.

Abraham saw the Lord in a vision while in the door of his tent. Then he looked up. (away from his inner vision?)

He saw three men (MEN) and went to them.

He (inwardly) asked the Lord to be with him (while he interacted with the men).

He got the men some beef and watched the men eat.

Where did the Lord eat?

Well, Zak. Defend your reading over mine above.

[Zakuska]

I don't see it.

Abraham saw the Lord in a vision while in the door of his tent. Then he looked up. (away from his inner vision?)

He saw three men (MEN) and went to them.

He (inwardly) asked the Lord to be with him (while he interacted with the men).

He got the men some beef and watched the men eat.

Where did the Lord eat?

"According to the Talmud (b. Bava Messia 86b), God himself was paying Abraham a personal sick call, checking on him after the ordeal of circumcision. Here is the expanded translation of Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz (the actual words of the Talmud are in bold). We read that Abraham went out and saw the Holy One, blessed be He, standing at the door of his tent, as the verse says, 'And the Lord appeared to him by the terebinths of Mamre.' This is what the verse is referring to when it says (Gen 18:3): 'And he said, "O Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, do not, I pray you, pass by Your servant."' In this verse Abraham was speaking to God himself (and so addressed Him as Lord and referred to himself as His servant.) When God saw that Abraham was busy tying and untying the bandages of his circumcision, He said to Himself, 'It is not fitting that I stay here while Abraham is taking care of His wound.' He was about to remove His presence when Abraham pleaded with Him to stay a little longer. And this is also what the verse refers to when it says (Genesis 18:2): 'And he raised his eyes and looked, and, behold, three men stood by him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them.'

Now, here, we have a biblical text that indisputably says that the Lord - Hebrew YHWH - appeared to Abraham and the Talmud even relates in story form how Abraham actually saw 'the Holy One, blessed be He,' addressing him as Lord. Yet, just a few words later, this very same biblical text says that Abraham looked up and saw three men, the Talmud giving the impression that God himself appeared to Abraham, only to be replaced by these men.

Who were the three men?... According to the Talmud, the three men were the angels, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, each with his own special task. Michael came to give Sarah the good news that she would soon have a son, Raphael came to heal Abraham, and Gabriel went to overthrow the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (although the Talmud says that Michael went along with Gabriel so as to rescue Lot). But there are problems with this view too. First, the text nowhere says that the angels replaced or represented the Lord. Instead, the Bible says that the Lord appeared to Abraham, that he saw three men, and that he addressed one of them both as Lord ('adonai) and as YHWH. Second, the context indicates clearly that two of the men went on to Sodom- where they are identified as angels- and that Abraham stayed before YHWH, with whom he had extended dialogue. To be faithful to the Scriptures we must say that the Lord, with two angels, appeared to Abraham, and all three appeared as human beings who spoke, ate, and drank with Abraham and Sarah." (Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Theological Objections [baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI 2000], Volume 2, pp. 31-33)

Verse 10 and 13 Identify one of the 3 men speaking as YHWH.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

Further Tarski,

Justin Marytr makes this same identification.

Justin discusses the narrative of Genesis 18-19 in response to Trypho's request that he should demonstrate from scripture that the word "God" can be extended to a second, alongside "the Maker of all things" (Dial.55). His argument, in brief, is as follows:

Moses, the blessed and faithful servant of God, declares that the one who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God, sent with the two angels in his company to judge Sodom, by another, who dwells eternally in the heavenly places, invisible to all and engaging in converse with none; the one whom we believe to be the Maker and Father of all things. (Dial.56)

He also says that there is a YHWH here on the ground talking to Abraham, and accompanied by two Angels doing recon and special ops and laser marking Sodom, so the second YHWH in the Heavens can fire the Nukes in the next chapter.

Gen 19

24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Edited September 26, 2011 by Zakuska

[Tarski]

"According to the Talmud (b. Bava Messia 86b), God himself was paying Abraham a personal sick call, checking on him after the ordeal of circumcision. Here is the expanded translation of Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz (the actual words of the Talmud are in bold). We read that Abraham went out and saw the Holy One, blessed be He, standing at the door of his tent, as the verse says, 'And the Lord appeared to him by the terebinths of Mamre.' This is what the verse is referring to when it says (Gen 18:3): 'And he said, "O Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, do not, I pray you, pass by Your servant."' In this verse Abraham was speaking to God himself (and so addressed Him as Lord and referred to himself as His servant.) When God saw that Abraham was busy tying and untying the bandages of his circumcision, He said to Himself, 'It is not fitting that I stay here while Abraham is taking care of His wound.' He was about to remove His presence when Abraham pleaded with Him to stay a little longer. And this is also what the verse refers to when it says (Genesis 18:2): 'And he raised his eyes and looked, and, behold, three men stood by him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them.'

Now, here, we have a biblical text that indisputably says that the Lord - Hebrew YHWH - appeared to Abraham and the Talmud even relates in story form how Abraham actually saw 'the Holy One, blessed be He,' addressing him as Lord. Yet, just a few words later, this very same biblical text says that Abraham looked up and saw three men, the Talmud giving the impression that God himself appeared to Abraham, only to be replaced by these men.

Who were the three men?... According to the Talmud, the three men were the angels, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, each with his own special task. Michael came to give Sarah the good news that she would soon have a son, Raphael came to heal Abraham, and Gabriel went to overthrow the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (although the Talmud says that Michael went along with Gabriel so as to rescue Lot). But there are problems with this view too. First, the text nowhere says that the angels replaced or represented the Lord. Instead, the Bible says that the Lord appeared to Abraham, that he saw three men, and that he addressed one of them both as Lord ('adonai) and as YHWH. Second, the context indicates clearly that two of the men went on to Sodom- where they are identified as angels- and that Abraham stayed before YHWH, with whom he had extended dialogue. To be faithful to the Scriptures we must say that the Lord, with two angels, appeared to Abraham, and all three appeared as human beings who spoke, ate, and drank with Abraham and Sarah." (Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Theological Objections [baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI 2000], Volume 2, pp. 31-33)

Verse 10 and 13 Identify one of the 3 men speaking as YHWH.

Sorry, is there place in all this where you show it is the Lord that eats? I read that the men ate.

[Zakuska]

Sorry, is there place in all this where you show it is the Lord that eats? I read that the men ate.

One of the three men is YHWH Tarski.

This is one of the Famous Trinitarian proof texts.

John Gill Following Augaustine I beleive...

Genesis 18:2

Ver. 2. And he lifted up his eyes and looked,.... To see if he could observe any passengers coming that way:

and, lo, three men stood by him; having perhaps descended at once from heaven upon the spot near where Abraham sat; for these, whoever they were, appeared in an human form, and they were took by Abraham at first sight to be men, and as such he treated them: some have taken these to be the three divine Persons, as some of the ancients; of which opinion was Dr. Lightfoot, who expressly says {h},

"three months after this, (i.e. the institution of the circumcision,) the three Persons in the Trinity dine with Abraham, and foretell the birth of Isaac; again, the Son and the Holy Ghost go down to Sodom, but the first Person in the Trinity stayeth with Abraham''

and elsewhere {i},

"the three Persons in the Trinity, in the shape of three men, appear to Abraham and dine with him, and eat the first flesh mentioned eaten in all the Scripture.''

<snip>

Genesis 18:9

Ver. 9. And they said unto him, where [is] Sarah thy wife?.... One of them put the question; and so the Septuagint version renders it, "and he said unto him", the principal of them, whom Abraham at first addressed and called him "my Lord", and was no other than the Son of God in an human form; and various things in the context show him to be a divine Person, particularly his promise of return next year, and Sarah should have a son: and the question here put by him was not out of ignorance, for he who knew the name of Abraham's wife, knew where she was; but this was asked in order to lead on to say something more concerning her, and that, hearing her name, she might draw nearer and listen to what was said of her:

and he said, behold, in the tent; for in those times they dwelt in tents, and this was either the tent common to the family, or rather was Sarah's own tent, Ge 24:67; Sarah was where she should be, in her own apartment, attending to the business of her family, and answered to the description the apostle gives of a good housewife, a keeper at home, *** 2:5;

Edited September 26, 2011 by Zakuska

[saemo]

Or perhaps he traveled through time after the ressurection to appear to Abraham in his Glorified Physical Immortal Body?

The Trinitarian view of God is one of transcendence. God, being the Creator of time, exists outside of it. So this explanation is valid.

However, most I know see this as God visiting Abraham, in three Persons. So we are seeing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Depicted in a famous icon by Andrei Rublev, incidently. They appear as men, but God appears to people as it pleases Him. A pillar of cloud and fire, a burning bush, etc.

Edited September 26, 2011 by saemo

[Calm]

Are they actually there in physical form or is it a vision?

If the first, had the Father and Spirit temporarily assumed a human nature/body?

[saemo]

Are they actually there in physical form or is it a vision?

If the first, had the Father and Spirit temporarily assumed a human nature/body?

If you're asking me, I'd call it a theophany, and I wouldn't assume that a human nature was assumed.

[Zakuska]

The Trinitarian view of God is one of transcendence. God, being the Creator of time, exists outside of it. So this explanation is valid.

However, most I know see this as God visiting Abraham, in three Persons. So we are seeing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Depicted in a famous icon by Andrei Rublev, incidently. They appear as men, but God appears to people as it pleases Him. A pillar of cloud and fire, a burning bush, etc.

The problem of the Trinity interpretation of Genesis 18 of course is Johns Gospel. - "No Man hath seen God at any time"

Edited September 26, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

If you're asking me, I'd call it a theophany, and I wouldn't assume that a human nature was assumed.

Do theophanys usually eat material food?

Edited September 26, 2011 by Zakuska

[zerinus]

"According to the Talmud (b. Bava Messia 86b), God himself was paying Abraham a personal sick call, checking on him after the ordeal of circumcision. Here is the expanded translation of Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz (the actual words of the Talmud are in bold). We read that Abraham went out and saw the Holy One, blessed be He, standing at the door of his tent, as the verse says, 'And the Lord appeared to him by the terebinths of Mamre.' This is what the verse is referring to when it says (Gen 18:3): 'And he said, "O Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, do not, I pray you, pass by Your servant."' In this verse Abraham was speaking to God himself (and so addressed Him as Lord and referred to himself as His servant.) When God saw that Abraham was busy tying and untying the bandages of his circumcision, He said to Himself, 'It is not fitting that I stay here while Abraham is taking care of His wound.' He was about to remove His presence when Abraham pleaded with Him to stay a little longer. And this is also what the verse refers to when it says (Genesis 18:2): 'And he raised his eyes and looked, and, behold, three men stood by him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them.'

Now, here, we have a biblical text that indisputably says that the Lord - Hebrew YHWH - appeared to Abraham and the Talmud even relates in story form how Abraham actually saw 'the Holy One, blessed be He,' addressing him as Lord. Yet, just a few words later, this very same biblical text says that Abraham looked up and saw three men, the Talmud giving the impression that God himself appeared to Abraham, only to be replaced by these men.

Who were the three men?... According to the Talmud, the three men were the angels, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, each with his own special task. Michael came to give Sarah the good news that she would soon have a son, Raphael came to heal Abraham, and Gabriel went to overthrow the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (although the Talmud says that Michael went along with Gabriel so as to rescue Lot). But there are problems with this view too. First, the text nowhere says that the angels replaced or represented the Lord. Instead, the Bible says that the Lord appeared to Abraham, that he saw three men, and that he addressed one of them both as Lord ('adonai) and as YHWH. Second, the context indicates clearly that two of the men went on to Sodom- where they are identified as angels- and that Abraham stayed before YHWH, with whom he had extended dialogue. To be faithful to the Scriptures we must say that the Lord, with two angels, appeared to Abraham, and all three appeared as human beings who spoke, ate, and drank with Abraham and Sarah." (Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Theological Objections [baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI 2000], Volume 2, pp. 31-33)

Verse 10 and 13 Identify one of the 3 men speaking as YHWH.

The context actually implies that two of the "three men" were the "two angels" who afterwards went to destroy Sodom and rescue Lot and his family. After they had eaten their meals with Abraham, two of the three men split of and went to fulfil God's commandment on Sodom; while the third one, who was God, stayed behind and continues to converse with Abraham, while Abraham remonstrated with Him, hoping that God would rescue Lot from the destruction, which of course God eventually did.

Edited September 26, 2011 by zerinus

[Cobalt-70]

This Bible passage is just as problematic for Mormons as it is for classical Christians. In modern Mormon theology (post-1916), The god YHWH (translated as "LORD" in the KJV) is identified as Jesus, who at the time of Abraham was a spirit.

[NauvooSaint]

The Inspired Version of the Bible or (Joseph Smith Translation JST) renders the verses in Genesis 18 differently. Some examples w/bold being additions or corrections made:

3 "My Lord brethren,..."

9 "And one of them blessed Abraham,..."

13 "And the angel of the Lord said unto Abraham,..."

14 "At the time appointed, behold, I will return unto thee from my journey, which the Lord hath sent me: and according to the time of life..."

16 "And the men angels rose up..."

17 "And the angel of the Lord, said..."

19 "And the angel of the Lord, said unto Abraham, The Lord said unto us, Because the cry of Sodom..."

23 "And the men angels which were holy men, and were sent forth after the order of God turned their faces..."

There appears to be some confusion as to the identity of the speaking angel in verse 24 as it remains as in the KJV as 'Lord', however in verse 25 Abraham calls upon the name of the Lord & then holds a conversation about the inhabitants of Sodom until the end of the chapter.

[Robert F. Smith]

This Bible passage is just as problematic for Mormons as it is for classical Christians. In modern Mormon theology (post-1916), The god YHWH (translated as "LORD" in the KJV) is identified as Jesus, who at the time of Abraham was a spirit.

If, as Lorenzo Snow states explicitly, man now is as God once was, and as God now is man may become, then humans are being depicted as of the genus and species of God, eligible for apotheosis. Since spirit in Mormonism is a fine material state, it seems unlikely that this is an insuperable problem. For mainstream adherents of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition, however, this is a problem which is completely impossible to explain.

[Cobalt-70]

The Inspired Version of the Bible or (Joseph Smith Translation JST) renders the verses in Genesis 18 differently. Some examples w/bold being additions or corrections made:

...

Even if all three of the men in the Abraham story were angels, I don't think this helps from the Mormon perspective. Angels prior to the resurrection of Jesus were only spirits.

[Cobalt-70]

If, as Lorenzo Snow states explicitly, man now is as God once was, and as God now is man may become, then humans are being depicted as of the genus and species of God, eligible for apotheosis. Since spirit in Mormonism is a fine material state, it seems unlikely that this is an insuperable problem. For mainstream adherents of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition, however, this is a problem which is completely impossible to explain.

I have an easy explanation for Mormons and classical Christians alike: stop taking the story so literally. This story was written down in its present form centuries after the time period in which it would have happened. Why are we quibbling with a few words?

[Calm]

Even if all three of the men in the Abraham story were angels, I don't think this helps from the Mormon perspective. Angels prior to the resurrection of Jesus were only spirits.

IIRC a common approach is to simply point out that angels are God's messengers and there is no reason why mortal men or perhaps a transfigured/translated being such as is reported of Moses could not have filled the role, it does not have to be a resurrected being or a pre mortal spirit.

In Hebrew is not the word the same for mortal and spirit messengers?

Edited September 26, 2011 by calmoriah