The "Immaterial God" Eating "Material" Lunch With Abraham?

[Zakuska]

This Bible passage is just as problematic for Mormons as it is for classical Christians. In modern Mormon theology (post-1916), The god YHWH (translated as "LORD" in the KJV) is identified as Jesus, who at the time of Abraham was a spirit.

Not realy a problem when one realizes as per Gen 19:24 there are 2 YHWHs.

[saemo]

The problem of the Trinity interpretation of Genesis 18 of course is Johns Gospel. - "No Man hath seen God at any time"

Abraham didn't see God as He is.

Edited September 27, 2011 by saemo

[saemo]

Do theophanys usually eat material food?

Our approaches are different I think. It is not possible for the human mind to grasp the ways of God. If God wants to take the form of three men, and appear to eat food, we're not going to try to explain God eating food. It isn't even in the realm of problematic or an issue for us. God can appear however He likes and do whatever He pleases. He is not constrained by our ideas of what God can and cannot do.

From my POV, the LDS view over explains, attempting to make something ordinary, that is not ordinary at all.

Hope that helps.

Peace.

Edited September 27, 2011 by saemo

[Cobalt-70]

Not realy a problem when one realizes as per Gen 19:24 there are 2 YHWHs.

There are not two YHWHs in Gen. 19:24. It was the same YHWH, just expressed in rather poetic Hebrew form. It's one of those fancy parallelisms.

[jo1952]

Zakuska,

I have no problem with any of the three manifesting in tangible bodies or being able to eat. Our physical bodies are made in the image of the Father and the Son; why wouldn't the Son or Angels and Messengers be able to appear to us in the physical realm the way that they exist in the Spiritual realm? Why would we need to assume that Jesus appeared in a "glorified body" (though I do enjoy your speculation that maybe He returned to the past IN His glorified body...as this could also make sense).

BTW, I have always found it interesting that the meal which Abraham served under the oaks of Mamre was not a kosher meal.

Cobalt-70

The two angels who went to Sodom and Gomorrah had solid, tangible bodies according to the account of their visit in Sodom with Lot.

Regards,

jo

Edited September 27, 2011 by jo1952

[Zakuska]

There are not two YHWHs in Gen. 19:24. It was the same YHWH, just expressed in rather poetic Hebrew form. It's one of those fancy parallelisms.

Thats news to Justin Martyr and the 1st century Christians...

Justin Martyr (ca. 100-165)

Justin: Moses, then, the blessed and faithful servant of God, declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God, sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by Another who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal intercourse with none, whom we believe to be Maker and Father of all things; for he speaks thus: 'God appeared to him under the oak in Mamre, as he sat at his tent-door at noontide. And lifting up his eyes, he saw, and behold, three men stood before him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the door of his tent; and he bowed himself toward the ground, and said . . .' 'Abraham went up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord: and he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrha, and toward the adjacent country, and beheld, and, lo, a flame went up from the earth, like the smoke of a furnace.'

And when I had made an end of quoting these words, I asked them if they had understood them. And they said they had understood them, but that the passages adduced brought forward no proof that there is any other God or Lord, or that the Holy Spirit says so, besides the Maker of all things.

Justin: I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things—above whom there is no other God—wishes to announce to them.

I quoted once more the previous passage.

Justin: Do you think that God appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre, as the Scripture asserts?

Trypho: Assuredly.

Justin: Was He one of those three whom Abraham saw, and whom the Holy Spirit of prophecy describes as men?

Trypho: No; but God appeared to him, before the vision of the three. Then those three whom the Scripture calls men, were angels; two of them sent to destroy Sodom, and one to announce the joyful tidings to Sarah, that she would bear a son; for which cause he was sent, and having accomplished his errand, went away.

Justin: How then does the one of the three, who was in the tent, and who said, 'I shall return to you hereafter, and Sarah shall have a son,' appear to have returned when Sarah had begotten a son, and to be there declared, by the prophetic word, God? But that you may clearly discern what I say, listen to the words expressly employed by Moses; they are these: 'And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian bond-woman, whom she bore to Abraham, sporting with Isaac her son, and said to Abraham, Cast out this bond-woman and her son; for the son of this bond-woman shall not share the inheritance of my son Isaac. And the matter seemed very grievous in Abraham sight, because of his son. But God said to Abraham, Let it not be grievous in your sight because of the son, and because of the bond-woman. In all that Sarah has said unto you, hearken to her voice; for in Isaac shall your seed be called.' Have you perceived, then, that He who said under the oak that He would return, since He knew it would be necessary to advise Abraham to do what Sarah wished him, came back as it is written; and is God, as the words declare, when they so speak: 'God said to Abraham, Let it not be grievous in your sight because of the son, and because of the bond-woman?'

Trypho: Certainly; but you have not proved from this that there is another God besides Him who appeared to Abraham, and who also appeared to the other patriarchs and prophets. You have proved, however, that we were wrong in believing that the three who were in the tent with Abraham were all angels.

Justin: If I could not have proved to you from the Scriptures that one of those three is God, and is called Angel, because, as I already said, He brings messages to those to whom God the Maker of all things wishes [messages to be brought], then in regard to Him who appeared to Abraham on earth in human form in like manner as the two angels who came with Him, and who was God even before the creation of the world, it were reasonable for you to entertain the same belief as is entertained by the whole of your nation.

Trypho: Assuredly, for up to this moment this has been our belief.

Justin: Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things—numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world—above whom there is no other God—has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with.

Trypho: Prove now that this is the case, that we also may agree with you. For we do not understand you to affirm that He has done or said anything contrary to the will of the Maker of all things.

Justin: The Scripture just quoted by me will make this plain to you. It is thus: 'The sun was risen on the earth, and Lot entered into Segor (Zoar); and the Lord rained on Sodom sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and overthrew these cities and all the neighbourhood.'

The fourth of those who had remained with Trypho: It must therefore necessarily be said that one of the two angels who went to Sodom, and is named by Moses in the Scripture Lord, is different from Him who also is God and appeared to Abraham.

Justin: It is not on this ground solely that it must be admitted absolutely that some other one is called Lord by the Holy Spirit besides Him who is considered Maker of all things; not solely [for what is said] by Moses, but also [for what is said] by David. For there is written by him: 'The Lord says to my Lord, Sit on My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool,' as I have already quoted. And again, in other words: 'Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever. A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of Your kingdom: You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity: therefore God, even Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows.' If, therefore, you assert that the Holy Spirit calls some other one God and Lord, besides the Father of all things and His Christ, answer me; for I undertake to prove to you from Scriptures themselves, that He whom the Scripture calls Lord is not one of the two angels that went to Sodom, but He who was with them, and is called God, that appeared to Abraham.

Trypho: Prove this; for, as you see, the day advances, and we are not prepared for such perilous replies; since never yet have we heard any man investigating, or searching into, or proving these matters; nor would we have tolerated your conversation, had you not referred everything to the Scriptures: for you are very zealous in adducing proofs from them; and you are of opinion that there is no God above the Maker of all things.

Justin: You are aware, then, that the Scripture says, 'And the Lord said to Abraham, Why did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I truly conceive? For I am old. Is anything impossible with God? At the time appointed shall I return to you according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.' And after a little interval: 'And the men rose up from thence, and looked towards Sodom and Gomorrha; and Abraham went with them, to bring them on the way. And the Lord said, I will not conceal from Abraham, my servant, what I do.' And again, after a little, it thus says: 'The Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrha is great, and their sins are very grievous. I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to their cry which has come unto me; and if not, that I may know. And the men turned away thence, and went to Sodom. But Abraham was standing before the Lord; and Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt You destroy the righteous with the wicked?'

And so on, for I do not think fit to write over again the same words, having written them all before, but shall of necessity give those by which I established the proof to Trypho and his companions. Then I proceeded to what follows, in which these words are recorded:

Justin: 'And the Lord went His way as soon as He had left communing with Abraham; and [Abraham] went to his place. And there came two angels to Sodom at even. And Lot sat in the gate of Sodom;' and what follows until, 'But the men put forth their hands, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door of the house;' and what follows…

Justin: …And now have you not perceived, my friends, that one of the three, who is both God and Lord, and ministers to Him who is in the heavens, is Lord of the two angels? For when [the angels] proceeded to Sodom, He remained behind, and communed with Abraham in the words recorded by Moses; and when He departed after the conversation, Abraham went back to his place. And when he came [to Sodom], the two angels no longer conversed with Lot, but Himself, as the Scripture makes evident; and He is the Lord who received commission from the Lord who [remains] in the heavens, i.e., the Maker of all things, to inflict upon Sodom and Gomorrha the [judgments] which the Scripture describes in these terms: 'The Lord rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrha sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.' (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, Chapter 56. God who appeared to Moses is distinguished from God the Father; italic emphasis ours)

Edited September 27, 2011 by Zakuska

[Mudcat]

If this is Christ.

1) How did he get a body that could eat Food and have his feet Washed?

2) At this time Christ would have been a Spirit (He won't encarnate for another 1000+ years) so is this Body he has a "spirit body"?

3) Or did he temporarily posses the body of an innocent by stander to walk around and destroy Sodom and Gomorrah in?

I would think the verses referring to Christ makes the most sense to me. Don't want to speak on behalf of Rob or Jestress though.

As to your questions, I don't see any real issue with the body being observed, as being the body he was born with. I think this would only be an issue for someone who felt God is actually constrained to "time" as we know it. I don't believe God is constrained to operate within the bounds of time, since I am of the opinion He made time, just as He has made all things.

Though alternatively, I suppose it could be an angelic appearance attributed as God, also.

[Zakuska]

I would think the verses referring to Christ makes the most sense to me. Don't want to speak on behalf of Rob or Jestress though.

As to your questions, I don't see any real issue with the body being observed, as being the body he was born with. I think this would only be an issue for someone who felt God is actually constrained to "time" as we know it. I don't believe God is constrained to operate within the bounds of time, since I am of the opinion He made time, just as He has made all things.

Though alternatively, I suppose it could be an angelic appearance attributed as God, also.

Your reading of this would follow the appearance of the Pre-Encarnate Christ to the brother of Jared.

Ether 3

6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

[Cobalt-70]

Thats news to Justin Martyr and the 1st century Christians...

Justin Martyr knew far less about the Old Testament than do modern bible scholars. He was not even a Jew. Besides it's hard to see how any modern Christian takes Martyr's statements here seriously, considering that they are so non-trinitarian. For example, he refers to two gods (Father and Son), and one god being subordinate to the other god.

[saemo]

Justin Martyr knew far less about the Old Testament than do modern bible scholars. He was not even a Jew. Besides it's hard to see how any modern Christian takes Martyr's statements here seriously, considering that they are so non-trinitarian. For example, he refers to two gods (Father and Son), and one god being subordinate to the other god.

Justin Martyr has one of the best explanations of the Trinity I've read. His entire discussion with Trypho needs to be read in context, not taken out of context as it has been done here.

He is taking Trypho step by step through key points of the OT, that point to Jesus as God. Towards the end of their discussion, he tells Trypho:

"And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said." Then I repeated once more all that I had previously quoted from Exodus, about the vision in the bush, and the naming of Joshua (Jesus), and continued: "And do not suppose, sirs, that I am speaking superfluously when I repeat these words frequently: but it is because I know that some wish to anticipate these remarks, and to say that the power sent from the Father of all which appeared to Moses, or to Abraham, or to Jacob, is called an Angel because He came to men (for by Him the commands of the Father have been proclaimed to men); is called Glory, because He appears in a vision sometimes that cannot be borne; is called a Man, and a human being, because He appears strayed in such forms as the Father pleases; and they call Him the Word, because He carries tidings from the Father to men: but maintain that this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father, just as they say that the light of the sun on earth is indivisible and inseparable from the sun in the heavens; as when it sinks, the light sinks along with it; so the Father, when He chooses, say they, causes His power to spring forth, and when He chooses, He makes it return to Himself. In this way, they teach, He made the angels. But it is proved that there are angels who always exist, and are never reduced to that form out of which they sprang. And that this power which the prophetic word calls God, as has been also amply demonstrated, and Angel, is not numbered [as different] in name only like the light of the sun but is indeed something numerically distinct, I have discussed briefly in what has gone before; when I asserted that this power was begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission, as if the essence of the Father were divided; as all other things partitioned and divided are not the same after as before they were divided: and, for the sake of example, I took the case of fires kindled from a fire, which we see to be distinct from it, and yet that from which many can be kindled is by no means made less, but remains the same.

Edited September 29, 2011 by saemo