Civil War Prophecy

[Nathair/|\]

Let us try it this way:

There was an earthquake recently that affected Washington, D.C. Then, a mild hurricane traveled north along the East Coast.

Now, the way I wrote that, am I saying that the earthquake caused the hurricane or simply that one happened after the other?

Yours under the grammatical oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Jesterss]

Let us try it this way:

There was an earthquake recently that affected Washington, D.C. Then, a mild hurricane traveled north along the East Coast.

Now, the way I wrote that, am I saying that the earthquake caused the hurricane or simply that one happened after the other?

The way you wrote it states that an earthquake happened then a mild hurricane occurred after it. But having no direct relation to it.

Now you tell me what this means.

There will be a sequence of natural disasters that will soon come to pass beginning with virginia. which will eventually terminate and result in the death of millions.

and that time will come that natural disasters will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at virginia.

for behold, the state of virginia will be divided against itself in the east and west, and the east will call upon the oceans, even the ocean of the pacific, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other oceans, in order to defend themselves from other oceans: and then natural disasters shall be poured out upon all oceans.

[Jesterss]

Sounds pretty mundane if you ask me.

[Nathair/|\]

The way you wrote it states that an earthquake happened then a mild hurricane occurred after it. But having no direct relation to it.

Now you tell me what this means.

There will be a sequence of natural disasters that will soon come to pass beginning with virginia. which will eventually terminate and result in the death of millions.

and that time will come that natural disasters will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at virginia.

for behold, the state of virginia will be divided against itself in the east and west, and the east will call upon the oceans, even the ocean of the pacific, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other oceans, in order to defend themselves from other oceans: and then natural disasters shall be poured out upon all oceans.

The way I read your paragraph and the prophecy which forms our larger discussion is that there are a series of events that occur, but the early ones are not being said to cause the later ones. It could be reasonably (but not necessarily) inferred that they have a common cause not being mentioned. In the case of the war prophecy, I believe there is a common cause in the unseen realm, but that there is no causal connection in the visible world.

[altersteve]

Jesterss, you are reading Joseph's prophecy with a critical eye, only looking for flaws. We are reading it by the power of the Spirit, so we already know we're right no matter what you say.

[keith_brian]

I guess I do need to hold your hand.

You said this,

about a prophecy made in the early 1800's.

Here is a prophecy made in the early 100's (or late 0's),

Now, here comes the hard part (apparently).

If a prophecy is false simply because it has not been totally fulfilled is less than 2 centuries, what does that make a prophecy that has not been totally fulfilled in 19 centuries?

Here is some help. 19 centuries is a lot longer than 2 centuries.

I realize, that for some, this is a very difficult concept to grasp.

From an outside perspective, it highly suggests that both prophecies are false and that believers keep making excuses and pushing back the time of the fulfillment of the prophecies so they don't have to admit it. It's also the type of vagueness that I was making fun of in JS's prophecies where he would have been correct (apparently) if at any time during the 500 years following his prophecy there was a multi-nation war. In this case, it happened 50 years after. Would you have felt any differently about the prophecy if the war had happened 30 years or 100 years afterward? My guess is probably not, because you would have seen the prophecy as fulfilled independent of the time frame that it was fulfilled in, even though a straightforward reading of the text itself seems (to me) to imply a direct causal relationship between the American Civil war and the multi-country war that "ends all nations" (which believers claim is still ongoing -- hence extending the life of the prophecy even further).

Let me put this another way. I claim to be a prophet. I prophesy in the name of my god (let's say Zeus) that there will be another great war in the world ... soon. Now, who here believes I'm a prophet if there is a mutli-nation war 50 years from now, or 100 years from now, or 200 years from now?

The Civil War prophecy of JS is simply too vague to have any usefulness. I keep explaining that, but somehow the apologists on the site keep ignoring my explanations.

I realize, that for some, that is a very difficult concept to grasp.

[keith_brian]

Let us try it this way:

There was an earthquake recently that affected Washington, D.C. Then, a mild hurricane traveled north along the East Coast.

Now, the way I wrote that, am I saying that the earthquake caused the hurricane or simply that one happened after the other?

Yours under the grammatical oaks,

Nathair /|\

I make a prophecy, in the name of Zeus, that there shall be a natural disaster next year. I proclaim that this knowledge was given to me by Zeus from his holy lightning bolt and not of man.

And so it is. Amen ... and Awomen!

[Vance]

Let me put this another way. I claim to be a prophet. I prophesy in the name of my god (let's say Zeus) that there will be another great war in the world ... soon.

Yeah, but can you tell WHERE it will start and WHAT it's likely cause will be?

Oh, wait, that is too specific for you to do. Got it.

Now, who here believes I'm a prophet if there is a mutli-nation war 50 years from now, or 100 years from now, or 200 years from now?

Well, maybe in 200 years from now someone might, IF you had something more specific.

The Civil War prophecy of JS is simply too vague to have any usefulness.

He gave more specificity than you are willing (or able) to provide.

I keep explaining that, but somehow the apologists on the site keep ignoring my explanations.

Right! And they keep explaining where you err and you keep ignoring them.

I realize, that for some, that is a very difficult concept to grasp.

Yes, indeed it is.

[Jesterss]

Jesterss, you are reading Joseph's prophecy with a critical eye, only looking for flaws. We are reading it by the power of the Spirit, so we already know we're right no matter what you say.

Isn't that the same thing we do with the bible though? I understand your sentiment, but there is justification. You have a different view of the bible as I do, yet you claim the spirit is with you. I claim the spirit is with me. How do we judge who's right and who's wrong? Jesus tells us. Rebuke. For if your evidence is substantial and true, you would be correct, but let's say neither of us won this argument because we both still view ourselves as right. Let's bring on more prophecies.

Tell me some more prophecies Joseph Smith said and foretold.

I'll look for some as well. My wife has a BOM.

[altersteve]

Isn't that the same thing we do with the bible though? I understand your sentiment, but there is justification. You have a different view of the bible as I do, yet you claim the spirit is with you. I claim the spirit is with me. How do we judge who's right and who's wrong? Jesus tells us. Rebuke. For if your evidence is substantial and true, you would be correct, but let's say neither of us won this argument because we both still view ourselves as right. Let's bring on more prophecies.

Tell me some more prophecies Joseph Smith said and foretold.

I'll look for some as well. My wife has a BOM.

http://www.jefflinds...rophecies.shtml

That's a good place to start.

This page is also useful:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Alleged_false_prophecies

Edited September 15, 2011 by altersteve

[Nathair/|\]

I make a prophecy, in the name of Zeus, that there shall be a natural disaster next year. I proclaim that this knowledge was given to me by Zeus from his holy lightning bolt and not of man.

And so it is. Amen ... and Awomen!

Fair enough, except that Poseidon is responsible for most natural disasters in the classical world and prophesies typically come from Apollo. Other than that, I am happy to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Jesterss]

D&C 84

Zion to be built in this generation in Missouri. What's the explanation for this?

[Jesterss]

D&C 84 also discusses the destruction of Boston and New York, yet they both still exist.

[altersteve]

D&C 84

Zion to be built in this generation in Missouri. What's the explanation for this?

If you want me to do your homework for you...

http://en.fairmormon...s_generation%22

It helps to read the information that has already been provided for you.

D&C 84 also discusses the destruction of Boston and New York, yet they both still exist.

Read it again, carefully. The explanation is given in the same passage. What is the condition that the Lord gives?

Edited September 15, 2011 by altersteve

[keith_brian]

D&C 84 also discusses the destruction of Boston and New York, yet they both still exist.

If it happens any time in the next 50,000 years, the prophecy has been fulfilled.

Don't you understand how to read these things?

Do I need to hold your hand?

[Sevenbak]

D&C 84

Zion to be built in this generation in Missouri. What's the explanation for this?

Ooooookay then.

Here's one for ya.

Matthew 24:

29 ¶Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Do you REALLY want to continue in your current form of assault?

[keith_brian]

Yeah, but can you tell WHERE it will start and WHAT it's likely cause will be?

Oh, wait, that is too specific for you to do. Got it.

Well, maybe in 200 years from now someone might, IF you had something more specific.

He gave more specificity than you are willing (or able) to provide.

Right! And they keep explaining where you err and you keep ignoring them.

Yes, indeed it is.

It shall probably arise in the regions round about China over the question of natural resources.

Turn on your timers, folks. If there is a war now ANYWHERE in China, near China, or even in Eastern Asia over natural resources any time during the next 500 years, I am a prophet and Zeus is a true god!

P.S. That's almost exactly how specific JS is in his prophecy. I have given a vague area of the world and a vague reason for the conflict.

[keith_brian]

Ooooookay then.

Here's one for ya.

Matthew 24:

29 ¶Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Do you REALLY want to continue in your current form of assault?

So, the current generation shall not pass away huh?

Remind me again ... how many people are still alive from JS's time?

[Sevenbak]

D&C 84 also discusses the destruction of Boston and New York, yet they both still exist.

And will they continue to exist when all the crap hits the fan? Subsequent prophets have also singled out these cities for future destruction. There was no time table given in the D&C.

[Sevenbak]

So, the current generation shall not pass away huh?

Remind me again ... how many people are still alive from JS's time?

How many people are still alive from Christ's time? That's from Matthew 24, not the D&C.

Context is key.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Sevenbak

[altersteve]

So, the current generation shall not pass away huh?

Remind me again ... how many people are still alive from JS's time?

Remind me again. How many people are still alive from Christ's time? Nobody? Then I guess Matthew 24:34 is also a false prophecy, because it has the exact same wording.

Edit: Sevenbak, you beat me to it.

Edited September 15, 2011 by altersteve

[Sevenbak]

Remind me again. How many people are still alive from Christ's time? Nobody? Then I guess Matthew 24:34 is also a false prophecy, because it has the exact same wording.

As does Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32.

[Jesterss]

Ooooookay then.

Here's one for ya.

Matthew 24:

29 ¶Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Do you REALLY want to continue in your current form of assault?

Oh but such an easy question to answer..

Matthew was not speaking about his generation, he was speaking about the generation who would be alive when the tribulation begins...

29 ¶Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

he doesn't say these days.. or our days, he says those days, referring to the days when the great tribulation is to begin... thank you for not omitting this first line..

[Vance]

It shall probably arise in the regions round about China over the question of natural resources.

Turn on your timers, folks. If there is a war now ANYWHERE in China, near China, or even in Eastern Asia over natural resources any time during the next 500 years, I am a prophet and Zeus is a true god!

P.S. That's almost exactly how specific JS is in his prophecy. I have given a vague area of the world and a vague reason for the conflict.

Right! China has the same geographical size as South Carolina. Got it.

[Vance]

Oh but such an easy question to answer..

Matthew was not speaking about his generation, he was speaking about the generation who would be alive when the tribulation begins...

29 ¶Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

he doesn't say these days.. or our days, he says those days, referring to the days when the great tribulation is to begin... thank you for not omitting this first line..

Right, so what happened to this verse?

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."