Civil War Prophecy

[Calm]

Jesterss:

Although it may not be direct history, D&C 87 was a prophecy made by Joseph Smith about a war breaking out starting with South Carolina, and including ALL nations.. That never happened. Therefore, a false prophecy..

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Joseph Smith prophecied that a war would break out starting in the southern state of south carolina and raising up the south against the north. Then it goes on to say how it would involve all nations. So the FairMormon belief is that the prophecy wasn't just regarding the civil war but the wars to follow? (in order to make the prophecy about all nations be correct)

That's ridiculous to even state. First off, it had to be about the civil war if you're even going to make the war even justified as a correct prophecy. Starting with South Carolina? Ok that was the civil war, but we know that ALL nations were not involved in the civil war.. fairmormon says thats what started the world wars but we know that's also not true. the civil war had nothing to do with the onset of the world wars, in fact, the united states had nothing to do with it, and didnt even join in until well after he had been going on. World War 1 was started due to conflicts in europe and hunger and territory and the balkan wars.... what's the history lesson to counter this? facts are facts.

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I must also add dates to further position my point..

Civil War 1861-1865

World War 1 1914-1918

That's a span of 49 years between wars... Quite some time...

Edited September 14, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Calmoriah:

Jesterss, on 13 September 2011 - 01:00 PM, said:

Although it may not be direct history, D&C 87 was a prophecy made by Joseph Smith about a war breaking out starting with South Carolina, and including ALL nations.. That never happened. Therefore, a false prophecy..

http://en.fairmormon...ecies/Civil_War

While I posted it as a response to your comment, it appears you are aware of it. I will leave it so that people can reference what is said themselves.

I don't see the FAIR response or the scripture/revelation as claiming that the Civil War was the cause of the wars that followed it; instead it is a reference to timing: "2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place"..."war", not "the Civil War" or even "the war".

You referencing the Balkan wars actually supports this position in that they are evidence of the continual nature of national and international wars taking place from that time.

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Jesterss:

Also: Just read a little more on their position that war seemed to increase, but that's also not true, if you count all the wars and battles with the Indians, War was actually more prevalent before the Civil War, but that's my opinion and it depends on what you consider a full on war.

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mfbukowski, on 13 September 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

Jesterss, on 13 September 2011 - 01:26 PM, said:

...but that's my opinion and it depends on what you consider a full on war.

Thanks.

The defense rests.

---------------------

Jesterss:

Not entirely, point in case being "my opinion" was that it depends on what mormons want to believe as a war. FairMormon seems to believe that war has increased since the civil war began, but I already pointed out that the civil war took 49 years to begin from the time of the end of the civil war, which only involved America. The south wanted to involved Britain but was unable to. Again, it's all on the fact that the prophecy was regarding the civil war to begin with..

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altersteve:

All Joseph said was that after the Civil War, war would be poured out upon all nations. He never said how long after, but that doesn't matter. The fact is that it's happening. This prophecy is being fulfilled as we speak. War is indeed being poured out upon all nations.

Edited September 14, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Jesterss:

Taken from D&C 87

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the ^awars that will ^bshortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of ^cSouth Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

2 And the ^atime will come that ^bwar will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then ^awar shall be poured out upon all nations.

let's break this down, first off, JS says war will break out starting with south carolina. Then goes on to say how this outbreak will pour out war upon all nations. now if we stop there, then sure, perhaps he was saying that war from this outbreak would eventually throw the world into turmoil (which it isnt, and all nations aren't in wars still, and never have been all at once)..

but he didn't stop there, it continued. and it continued with the same lines as line 1, saying how the "southern states" shall be divided against the "north", which we all understand as the civil war, so again, he's directly referring to the civil war still. and when referring to them, he says that the southern states will call on other nations, even the nation of great britain, which the south does want them to send them ships, but they are rebuffed by the north and told to stay out of the conflict. and great britain did not call upon any nations to defend it. nor did war pour out upon all nations because of this quarrel.

I mean c'mon. how is that confusing?

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altersteve:

Verse three: "For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations."

Joseph never said that war would pour out upon all nations "because of this quarrel" (and the Civil War was much, much more than a mere "quarrel"; the fact that you say that makes me question your knowledge in U.S. history). He said that the South would be divided against the North, after which the South would call upon other nations including Great Britain (which they did). And then, as Joseph said, war will be poured out upon all nations. He also never said that the Civil War would be poured out upon all nations; he is talking about war in general, being poured out upon all nations beginning with America. This has taken place, is taking place, and will take place in the future. You have to read it intelligently.

Critics of this alleged false prophecy also have to address how they think Joseph knew that the South would rise up against the North in the first place, and how he knew that the South would call upon Great Britain. Lucky guess?

--------------------------

Jesterss:

I'm not sure how to start a new thread in here as the option to start a new thread is greyed out for me.

--regarding the prophecy

So in answering, joseph may not have said because of the civil war but he also never said it would be a civil war or a world war. but to say that the civil war has created all these other wars makes me question your knowledge of US History and World History. Starting with the American Revolution, there was the Franco-American Naval War, Barbary Wars, War of 1812, Creek War (plus MANY indian wars consistently up until 1918), War of Texas Independence, Mexican-American War, and then the Civil War... so regarding wars.. they haven't ever ceased to exist.. so saying that the civil war spawned all these wars is ridiculous..

And critics who said that are correct, because 3 days prior to JS christmas prophecy of the "war(s)" to come, and starting in south carolina, a newspaper in a town very near to his in Ohio sent out a press release stating tensions between South Carolina and the free states... so yes, he wasn't the only one who "saw this coming" as many LDS believe he was..

So, actually read what he said and think about it.. and read verse 3 more in-depth and ponder on it.. he continually says that it is the war of the southern vs northern states that the south will call upon many nations and this will invoke a "pouring out of war" upon all nations.. which didn't happen!.. north vs south (civil war) did not correlate to any wars that would start after that.. and it did not involve any other nations.. was the civil war for a reason.

how is that hard to comprehend? you wan't to call me out on english lessons and turn them into history, but you refuse to actually understand the history that DID occur..

Edited September 14, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

but to say that the civil war has created all these other wars makes me question your knowledge of US History and World History

I don't see anyone saying this save you saying that the prophecy says it and at least two of us have disagreed with you, altersteve and myself.

The Civil War was pointed out as a beginning point in time, the other wars followed it in time (but not from it) but that does not mean or imply that the Civil War was the cause of other wars.

Edited September 14, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Altersteve:

Jesterss, on 13 September 2011 - 05:49 PM, said:

but to say that the civil war has created all these other wars makes me question your knowledge of US History and World History.

I never said that, and Joseph Smith didn't either.

Quote

Starting with the American Revolution, there was the Franco-American Naval War, Barbary Wars, War of 1812, Creek War (plus MANY indian wars consistently up until 1918), War of Texas Independence, Mexican-American War, and then the Civil War... so regarding wars.. they haven't ever ceased to exist.. so saying that the civil war spawned all these wars is ridiculous..

I never said that, and Joseph Smith didn't either.

Quote

And critics who said that are correct, because 3 days prior to JS christmas prophecy of the "war(s)" to come, and starting in south carolina, a newspaper in a town very near to his in Ohio sent out a press release stating tensions between South Carolina and the free states... so yes, he wasn't the only one who "saw this coming" as many LDS believe he was..

I am aware of the press release. However, it doesn't explain how Joseph knew that these "tensions" would result in a Civil War that would result in the death and misery of many souls (which it did, being the bloodiest war in American history and all), nor does it explain how he knew the South would call upon Great Britain. It also does not explain how he knew that war would afterward pour out upon all nations.

Quote

So, actually read what he said and think about it.. and read verse 3 more in-depth and ponder on it.. he continually says that it is the war of the southern vs northern states that the south will call upon many nations and this will invoke a "pouring out of war" upon all nations.. which didn't happen!..

He never said the Civil War would "invoke" anything. He simply said that after the South vs. the North, war would pour out upon all nations. He never said the Civil War would be the cause.

Quote

north vs south (civil war) did not correlate to any wars that would start after that.. and it did not involve any other nations.. was the civil war for a reason.

Joseph never claimed otherwise. He simply said war (not the Civil War, just war in general) would pour out upon all nations, and this is happening as we speak. This prophecy is being fulfilled.

Quote

how is that hard to comprehend? you wan't to call me out on english lessons and turn them into history, but you refuse to actually understand the history that DID occur..

Nope, I don't. I understand the history quite well, thanks.

[Jesterss]

Ok so you say that he never said Civil War, agreed, he didn't, but he did state that it would be a war that started with south carolina, which we all know to have been the Civil War. Then it says that war will be poured out upon ALL nations, how then can you not understand that to mean that A) either the civil war caused war to break out in all nations or B) that all nations got involved into the civil war.

Neither A or B, the only 2 explanations, could either hold true for all nations becoming involved...

[cdowis]

The Civil War had a direct link with the innovations which lead to the "Great War":

• the most important innovation was logistics, using railroads to move men and material, which made a world war possible
  trench warfare
  submarine
  ironsided warships
  use of airships

[rameumptom]

This is a major misreading of D&C 84 that was given. I wrote several years ago on this, and will duplicate it below, along with the link to my website:

D&C 87: The Prophecy on War

Joseph Smith's Prophecy on War (D&C 87) is a big thorn in the side of those critics of the Mormon Prophet. Some claim that 'everyone knew that the North and South were going to war, so it wasn't that big of a prophecy.' However, the evidence is against that statement. Elder Orson Hyde supplemented that prophecy in 1858, claiming the destructions and wars were about to come upon the U.S.

When he made these claims, many eastern newspapers quoted him, mocking him. There was no way the States were going to war, according to the papers. In 1862, Elder Hyde commented on this fact as further evidence that the American people did not consider this prophecy valid prior to its accomplishment.

Secondly, we shall see that the Prophecy of War goes well beyond the Civil War/War between the States, and down to our own day.

War Among the States and Among All Nations

It starts by prophecying of the Civil War, a war that will be the beginning point for all great wars . We read in D&C 87:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.Here we see that the Civil War is the beginning of wars to be poured out "on all nations."

The Civil War was a great turning point in warfare. With it came modern warfare, which opened the way for wars of mass destruction to be commonplace and widespread. Also, this was the first war where new weapons of destruction were used: repeating rifles, gatling guns, iron ships, etc. All this added up to tens of thousands being killed in a single battle.

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.Here we see the South, during the Civil War, calling upon other nations for assistance, and "they" or Great Britain and other nations shall "also call upon other nations" for assistance in their defense.

This does not state that war would fall upon all nations right after the Civil War, but that Great Britain would be called upon to help the South in the Civil War. Then the time would come when Great Britain and other nations would have to call upon other nations for assistance. Imagine a nation like Great Britain, which at the time ruled the oceans and had a formidable army having to call upon other nations for assistance! And yet it happened in both the First and Second World Wars, which is exactly the time when war was "poured out upon all nations.

The Fall of Communism

Now this next portion is very interesting. Many think it refers to the Civil War, but it doesn't. In terms of time, it refers to a time after the wars on all nations:

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

The only "slaves" in the days since the World Wars, have been those who have suffered under the bonds of Communism and racism. Isn't it interesting to see how quickly the shackles of slavery have fallen off of the slaves of the former Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, and among the blacks in South Africa, and to an extent, even in the United States. However, since their "masters" are marshaled and disciplined for war, there are few primary choices, except Communism where this has occurred.The Terrorist Connection

This is to the point where I see we are at in this prophecy. There is more to come, as well:

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

At one time I thought the remnant referred to is the literal House of Israel, and particularly the Lamanites (Native Americans). It may be that a portion of this part of the prophecy will still be fulfilled by them.Now, however I feel it is the remnant of the slaves in the world that this refers to. Tyrannical dictators of Muslim nations have kept their peoples in poverty and slavery. They have stayed in power by turning the anger of the peoples against the Jews and the West. We are now feeling the pain of the remnant of Arab and Muslim slaves in the world, as they continue attacking and vexing the Gentile nations. Interestingly, the tactics they are using are very similar to the terrorist attacks used by the Gadianton Robbers in the Book of Mormon (Books of Helaman and 3 Nephi), not long prior to the First Coming of Christ in glory to the Nephites, prior to their long period of peace (akin to the Millennial era we pray for today).

Great Destructions to Come

Anyway, to continue with the prophecy:

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.

Obviously, when the remnant of the slaves vex the Gentiles, we shall see great destruction and bloodshed begin. So, the times for great destruction may not be too far away.Stand In Holy Places

8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

And the "holy places" mentioned above are Zion and her stakes. People will flock to the "holy places" as places of refuge and safety. Not all will be Latter-day Saints, but all that are willing to keep the 10 Commandments, and perhaps a few other laws of righteousness will be welcome to dwell in safety, while the wicked suffer through the great destructions of the last days prior to the Second Coming of the Lord.Once again, an amazing prophecy of Joseph Smith's come forth as true.

http://rameumptom.weebly.com/dc87.html

[cdowis]

It is the same old pattern:

to believers, it was a prophecy which was fulfilled, to the unbeliever JS merely connected the dots and got some things right.

"Just a coincidence."

[keith_brian]

The Civil War had a direct link with the innovations which lead to the "Great War":

• the most important innovation was logistics, using railroads to move men and material, which made a world war possible
  trench warfare
  submarine
  ironsided warships
  use of airships

Yeah, but there was about 50 years separating the American Civil War from World War I. To put that in perspective, that's about the same time frame between the Korean War and the War in Afghanistan after 9-11.

Are we going to start claiming that the Korean War caused the war in Afghanistan too?

And, I'm not talking about using technology developed in one war in the next war. That one is a no-brainer, IMHO. We're talking about a direct, causal relationship -- which is very much what a straight forward reading of the JS Prophecy seems to suggest. Are you maintaining that the start of World War I was DIRECTLY CAUSED by the events of the American Civil War?

To me, this was a very clear example of how JS just got certain things wrong.

[altersteve]

Ok so you say that he never said Civil War, agreed, he didn't, but he did state that it would be a war that started with south carolina, which we all know to have been the Civil War. Then it says that war will be poured out upon ALL nations, how then can you not understand that to mean that A) either the civil war caused war to break out in all nations or B) that all nations got involved into the civil war.

Neither A or B, the only 2 explanations, could either hold true for all nations becoming involved...

You are presenting a false dilemma. Joseph never said that the Civil War would be poured out upon all nations. He said war, not any specific war, just war in general, would be pour out upon all nations, after the war that would begin in South Carolina (i.e., the Civil War). The prophecy is as follows:

1. The South, beginning with South Carolina, will rise up against the North. Fulfilled.

2. The resulting war will result in the death and misery of many souls. Fulfilled.

3. The South will call upon other nations, including Great Britain. Fulfilled.

4. And then (after the Civil War, in other words), war will be poured out upon all nations. Fulfilled, and still being fulfilled as we speak.

Joseph says nothing about the Civil War being the cause of any subsequent war, nor does he say a thing about other nations getting involved with the Civil War. Again, you have to read it intelligently.

The fact is that this prophecy is a perfect bulls-eye. Everything Joseph said has come to pass, is coming to pass, and will come to pass in the future.

[LeSellers]

there was about 50 years separating the American Civil War from World War I. To put that in perspective, that's about the same time frame between the Korean War and the War in Afghanistan after 9-11.

Of course, between Korea and Afghanistan, there were wars in Vietnam (I remember that one well) and a dozen other places, and that's only counting those USmerica was involved in.

If you take the whole world (as the prophecty does), Russia was at war in Afghanistan even while we were in Vietnam. Africa was thoroughly poluted wiht war, Ireland was in conflagration, as was Spain (with the Basques). Southeast Asia form Laos and Cambodia to Thailand were all in flames at one point or another.

South America from Venezuela to Chile and Argentina fought their own internal and external wars (faulklands/Maldives, anyone?)

The Mexican War, the Spanish american War, hundreds of "skirmishes" and outright wars with Indians unitl the early XX, Ten Years' War between Cuba and Spain, Austro-Prussian War, lim Rebellion in northwest China, Franco-Prussian War, the April Uprising against Ottoman rule, Anglo-Zulu War in South Africa, Little War against Spanish rule in Cuba, the First Boer War, the Mahdist War in Sudan, British invasion and subsequent occupation of Egypt, Siege of Khartoum, Germany controls Camaroon, the Sino-French War, the Russian-Circassian War, the Chilean Civil War, US forces overthrow the government of Hawaii, the First Italo–Ethiopian War, the Philippine Revolution, the Battle of Adwa, the Greco-Turkish War, the One Thousand Days war in Colombia, the Second Boer War, the Philippine-American War. All in the XIX alone.

The Russian (Marxist) Revolution, Boxer Rebellion, the Sino-Russian wars, the Sino-Japanese wars, and a host of others beginning in the late XIX all attest to the accuracy of the Christmas prophecy through Joseph Smith.

To claim that war was not poured out on all nations is the far-fetched position.

Lehi

Edited September 14, 2011 by LeSellers

[Jaybear]

Joseph says nothing about the Civil War being the cause of any subsequent war, nor does he say a thing about other nations getting involved with the Civil War. Again, you have to read it intelligently.

Smith says:

For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

Does an "intelligent" see the highlighted clause see a causal or merely a sequential prophecy.

I say causal:

1. The phrase is a clause found in the same sentence.

2. The term "shall" suggests it follows or is caused from the prior event.

Moreover, a mere sequential prophesy (1) renders the civil war prediction rather meaningless in the big scheme, and (2)fails to provide the audience any explanation as to how, why and when this great world war will come about.

You are welcome to your own reading, but I would characterizing it as "faithful" not "intelligent."

[LeSellers]

2. The term "shall" suggests it follows or is caused from the prior event.

No, "shall" only refers to the future. We moderns use "shall" in a very different way from that of our predecessors. "Shall", in the third person, as it is here, means it is an emphatic future, not that there is any causal connection between the two elements.

Chronocentrism in language causes us to commit many errors in interpretation, as for instance, the horrific misuse of the "Commerce Clause" and the II amendment in the USmerican Constitution. No educated XVIII or XIX Englishman would make such tortured statements as we hear today on the matters. And this is exactly what you are saying about "shall" above: we in the XIX mean Xxxx, so it must be how Joseph Smith meant it." Poppycock!

Lehi

[KevinG]

Smith says:

Does an "intelligent" see the highlighted clause see a causal or merely a sequential prophecy.

I say causal:

I stand amazed at your ability to mind read a dead prophet. But let's assume your reading is correct...

1. The phrase is a clause found in the same sentence.

2. The term "shall" suggests it follows or is caused from the prior event.

Moreover, a mere sequential prophesy (1) renders the civil war prediction rather meaningless in the big scheme, and (2)fails to provide the audience any explanation as to how, why and when this great world war will come about.

You are welcome to your own reading, but I would characterizing it as "faithful" not "intelligent."

The Civil War highlighted tension between European imperial powers that continued to escalate until the outbreak of two world wars. Both the industry and technical innovation that came from the Civil War era and the continued adventuresome expansion of European colonialism came to a head during the World Wars.

In a very direct curtural and technological sense the Civil War was a bellweather for things to come. A pattern that Joseph Smith predicted very accurately no matter which wars or conflicts following his prophecy you choose to use as an example.

Selectively ignoring history between the conflicts is neither faithful or intelligent.

[thesometimesaint]

For those of us that do know US History.

Wars the US has fought in between Civil War and WWI.

Dakota War of 1862 or

Sioux Uprising or

Sioux Outbreak of 1862 Dakota Sioux April 12, 1861 – April 9, 1865 United States victory

Bombardment of Qui Nhơn or

Cochinchina Campaign Nguyen Dynasty July 31, 1861 United States victory, fort silenced

Colorado War Cheyenne

Arapaho 1863 - 1865 United States victory

Battles for Shimonoseki Chōshū Domain July 20, 1863 - September 6, 1864 Decisive Allied victory

Powder River Expedition or

Connor Expedition Sioux

Cheyenne

Arapaho 1865 U.S. victory; raids along Bozeman trail stopped

Snake War Paiute

Bannock

Shoshone 1864 - 1868 U.S. victory

Red Cloud's War or

Bozeman War or

Powder River War Lakota

Cheyenne

Arapaho 1866 - 1868 United States victory:

Treaty of Fort Laramie (1868)

Lakota people confined to reservations in the Bozeman Trail and in Fort Laramie

The Lakota and Northern Cheyenne territory made into reservations but part of the United States

Formosa Expedition or

Taiwan Expedition of 1867 Paiwan June 1867 United States objectives failed

Comanche Campaign or

Comanche War Cheyenne

Arapaho

Comanche

Kiowa 1867–1875 United States victory

Battle of Boca Teacapan Mexican Pirates June 17, 1870 United States victory

Korean Expedition or

Shinmiyangyo Joseon Dynasty June 1, 1871 - July 3, 1871 United States military victory, United States diplomatic failure; Korean-American Treaty of Amity and Commerce

Modoc War or

Modoc Campaign or

Lava Beds War Modoc July 6, 1872 – June 4, 1873 United States victory

Oahu Expedition Emmaites February 12, 1874 American and British forces quell riot.

Red River War Cheyenne

Arapaho

Comanche

Kiowa June 27, 1874 - June 1875 United States victory; end to the Texas-Indian Wars

Black Hills War or

Great Sioux War of 1876–77 or

Little Big Horn Campaign Lakota

Northern Cheyenne

Arapaho 1876 - 1877 United States victory

Nez Perce War or

Nez Perce Campaign Nez Perce 1877 United States victory

Bannock War or

Bannock Campaign Bannock

Shoshone 1878 United States victory

Cheyenne War or

Cheyenne Campaign Cheyenne 1878–1879 United States victory

Sheepeater Indian War Shoshone 1879 United States victory

White River War or

Ute War or

Ute Campaign Ute 1879 - 1880 United States victory

Egyptian Expedition or

Second Anglo-Egyptian War Urabi Rebels June - July 1882 United States forces protect consulate from rebels and extinguish fires

Colombian Civil War Colombian rebels March 30-April 24, 1885 Colon destroyed, rebels retreat, American hostages released; Ambrose Light and Colombian rebels captured

Samoan Crisis or

First Samoan Civil War German Empire 1887–1889 Both squadrons wrecked

Pine Ridge Campaign or

Ghost Dance War Sioux November 1890 – January 1891 United States victory

Bering Sea Anti-Poaching Operations Bering Sea Poachers June 22 - October 5, 1891 Suppression of seal poaching in the Bering Sea

Chilean Civil War Chile 1891 United States Navy seizes Chilean ship; Breakdown of American and Chilean relations

Rio de Janeiro Affair Brazilian Rebels January 21–9, 1894 United States victory, objective completed

Second Samoan Civil War Mataafans 1898 - 1899 Mataafan victory, Mata'afa Iosefo becomes high chief of Samoa; United States acquires American Samoa, Germany acquires German Samoa

Spanish-American War

Philippine Insurrection or

Philippine–American War or

Philippine War of Independence First Philippine Republic

Revolutionary forces

Pulajanes June 2, 1899 – July 4, 1902 United States victory and dissolution of the First Philippine Republic; The Philippines becomes an unincorporated territory of the United States

Moro Rebellion Sultanate of Sulu

Moro 1899–1913 United States victory

Boxer Rebellion or

The Boxer Uprising Righteous Harmony Society

Qing Empire September 28, 1899 - August 15, 1900 Alliance victory

Occupation of Nicaragua or

Nicaraguan Campaign Liberal rebels 1912 – 1933 United States victory

Mexican Revolution or

Mexican Expedition or

Pancho Villa Expedition Mexico

Yaqui April 21, 1914 - June 16, 1919 Porfirio Diaz ousted from power and exiled in France, Convention of Aguascalientes between revolutionary leaders, Mexican Constitution of 1917 enacted, assassination of important revolutionary leaders Madero, Zapata and Carranza, founding of the National Revolutionary Party

Occupation of Haiti or

Haitian Campaign or

Caco War Haiti

Caco rebels July 28, 1915 - August 1, 1934 United States victory, Cacos defeated, Haiti occupied.

Occupation of the Dominican Republic or

Dominican Campaign

Edited September 14, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[KevinG]

For those of us that do know US History.

Wars the US has fought in between Civil War and WWI.

Come now... surely some of those were just "kinetic actions".

[thesometimesaint]

DaddyG:

I've never been a fan of Newspeak, but I do get your meaning.

[cinepro]

The greatest blessing God can give to a prophet would have to be really creative followers.

Edited September 14, 2011 by cinepro

[ERayR]

Ok so you say that he never said Civil War, agreed, he didn't, but he did state that it would be a war that started with south carolina, which we all know to have been the Civil War. Then it says that war will be poured out upon ALL nations, how then can you not understand that to mean that A) either the civil war caused war to break out in all nations or B) that all nations got involved into the civil war.

Neither A or B, the only 2 explanations, could either hold true for all nations becoming involved...

How could you not understand that there would first be a war that started with South Carolina and then AFTER that war would be poured out upon all nations?

[ERayR]

Yeah, but there was about 50 years separating the American Civil War from World War I. To put that in perspective, that's about the same time frame between the Korean War and the War in Afghanistan after 9-11.

Are we going to start claiming that the Korean War caused the war in Afghanistan too?

And, I'm not talking about using technology developed in one war in the next war. That one is a no-brainer, IMHO. We're talking about a direct, causal relationship -- which is very much what a straight forward reading of the JS Prophecy seems to suggest. Are you maintaining that the start of World War I was DIRECTLY CAUSED by the events of the American Civil War?

To me, this was a very clear example of how JS just got certain things wrong.

50 years is a mere blink in time to God. No the subsequent wars were not caused by the Civil War. They were/are a result of God pouring out war upon all nations.

[Jaybear]

I stand amazed at your ability to mind read a dead prophet. But let's assume your reading is correct...

No mind reading. I was presenting an objective interpretation of a written paragraph. If you can show that Smith had the tenancy to communicate in writing, in a manner in which no one at that time could conceivable understand, then I stand corrected.

But I will note that if we are to infuse subjectivity into a reading of the "prophesy", I will note that Smith audience believed that those were the "latter days", the return of Christ was eminent, and that they (not their great great great grandchilder) were the "latter day" saints.

The Civil War highlighted tension between European imperial powers that continued to escalate until the outbreak of two world wars. Both the industry and technical innovation that came from the Civil War era and the continued adventuresome expansion of European colonialism came to a head during the World Wars.

Yeah, right. If that is what you want to believe, be my guest. When you see the rebellion in S. Carolina noted as one of the root causes of WWI in any credible history book, wake me up.

[cinepro]

50 years is a mere blink in time to God. No the subsequent wars were not caused by the Civil War. They were/are a result of God pouring out war upon all nations.

It's been a while since I read D&C 87, but does God talk about how, after war gets poured out on all nations a few times, the "good guys" would win, warfare on the planet would then be confined to regionalized conflicts, and in general people would enjoy greater improvements in health and welfare than at any other time in history?

Edited September 14, 2011 by cinepro

[ERayR]

It's been a while since I read D&C 87, but does God talk about how, after war gets poured out on all nations a few times, the "good guys" would win, warfare on the planet would then be confined to regionalized conflicts, and in general the people of the planet would enjoy greater improvements in health and welfare than at any other time in history?

God didn't get into the details all he said was that war would be poured out on all nations. To me it doesn't make any difference rather it is a global conflict or a localized one it is still a pretty devastating event.

I'm don't think it matters rather or not cinepro considers them a war or not it is still part of the world wide picture.

[Jesterss]

You are presenting a false dilemma. Joseph never said that the Civil War would be poured out upon all nations. He said war, not any specific war, just war in general, would be pour out upon all nations, after the war that would begin in South Carolina (i.e., the Civil War). The prophecy is as follows:

1. The South, beginning with South Carolina, will rise up against the North. Fulfilled.

2. The resulting war will result in the death and misery of many souls. Fulfilled.

3. The South will call upon other nations, including Great Britain. Fulfilled.

4. And then (after the Civil War, in other words), war will be poured out upon all nations. Fulfilled, and still being fulfilled as we speak.

Joseph says nothing about the Civil War being the cause of any subsequent war, nor does he say a thing about other nations getting involved with the Civil War. Again, you have to read it intelligently.

The fact is that this prophecy is a perfect bulls-eye. Everything Joseph said has come to pass, is coming to pass, and will come to pass in the future.

Ok, many statements have been made but I have to break this one down first..

1. The South, beginning with South Carolina, will rise up against the North. Fulfilled. - I agree that was fulfilled, no argument there, but then u must agree that was concerning the civil war if that was fulfilled, so we are discussing the civil war as the clear START, I'll go with your logic and say, START...

2. The resulting war will result in the death and misery of many souls. Fulfilled. - Definitely, many were killed, same with any other war though.. this didn't set a record for the world..

3. The South will call upon other nations, including Great Britain. Fulfilled. - Ahhh, here's the fun part, NATIONS, plurality is spoken here. Not just the nation of great britain, but other nation(s) which would include great britain.. As we know, great britain was the only ones called upon, but they weren't involved either.. so called upon sure, but not involved.. and great britain is not a plural nation...

4. And then (after the Civil War, in other words), war will be poured out upon all nations. Fulfilled, and still being fulfilled as we speak. - And then, oh what an interesting concept to understand what he meant.. If your wife told you she was going to go to walmart AND THEN go to the mall, would you assume she was going to walmart today and the mall next week?.. NO, she would be going to walmart at lets say 10:00am, then 2 hours after she's done there, she heads to the mall at noon..

AND THEN, does not represent a space in time, it represents one action followed by or leading to another action after... so your statement is that the civil war miraculously lead to the other wars?.. We know this to be false because the civil war did not lead to any sequential wars... 49 years was not spent by europe plotting how they could get america involved in a war that would involve the entire world (which world war 1, still did not involve all nations, despite its name)...

Now someone mentioned that the civil war changed the way wars were to be fought and nobody saw the downfall of a great nation such as great britain having to call upon other nations.. Oh really?.. What about the fact that Great Britain lost to America in the American Revolution? Nobody saw that coming either.. What about the war of 1812?... the impressive armada of great britain suddenly wasn't as overpowering as perceived was it?.. again, ironclad ships existed before the civil war..

to say that the civil war was the cause for military gains in technology is also inaccurate.. technology has increased frequently and exponentially since the beginning of wars..