Civil War Prophecy

[Jesterss]

I think that the JS prophecy was a little more specific than your examples. Also, we tend to forget the indian wars that followed the civil war. Custer died in the next decade battling the Indian nations. The indian wars ended in 1892 with the battle of wounded knee. And this was a war with the indian nations. And then after such a war within twenty years, there was a world war. Not bad really for JS and his bull's eye.

The indian wars started when the american colonies were settled and expansion out west began, so therefore, you just make my point that war never ceased to exist, so to claim that wars would become more prevalent is like me saying that tomorrow we'll still be fighting wars in the future.... well duh!

[Vance]

For those of us that do know US History.

Wars the US has fought in between Civil War and WWI.

Yeah, but,

but,

but,

those weren't "war" wars.

[why me]

Yeah, but there was about 50 years separating the American Civil War from World War I. To put that in perspective, that's about the same time frame between the Korean War and the War in Afghanistan after 9-11.

Are we going to start claiming that the Korean War caused the war in Afghanistan too?

And, I'm not talking about using technology developed in one war in the next war. That one is a no-brainer, IMHO. We're talking about a direct, causal relationship -- which is very much what a straight forward reading of the JS Prophecy seems to suggest. Are you maintaining that the start of World War I was DIRECTLY CAUSED by the events of the American Civil War?

To me, this was a very clear example of how JS just got certain things wrong.

Except we are still missing the indian wars and the killing of the indian nations. Plus, we have great britain involved in many skirmishes through out that time all over the world. Then, we still have the spanish american war which came a little later. And then we have WWI which did involve most nations in the world since it was a war over colonies. The russians wanted a piece of the pie and before that they engaged in war against japan for some of that pie. So WWI was called a world war because it actually was when we consider the colonies that GB had.

[keith_brian]

I think that the JS prophecy was a little more specific than your examples. Also, we tend to forget the indian wars that followed the civil war. Custer died in the next decade battling the Indian nations. The indian wars ended in 1892 with the battle of wounded knee. And this was a war with the indian nations. And then after such a war within twenty years, there was a world war. Not bad really for JS and his bull's eye.

Actually, the prophecy by JS is just as vague as the examples I provided. If Le Sellers is to be believed, there is no causal relationship predicted between the American Civil War and WWI, only a chronological one. So, this means the whole second part of the prophecy -- in a best case scenario -- is that JS was saying that a war between multiple nations would start ... sometime and that wars would be common among all nations.

To paraphrase The Empire Strikes Back, I'm glad he was there to tell us these things.

[ERayR]

That's not "all he said":

Assuming verse 3 is referring to the American Civil War, in what way were verses 4-6 fulfilled, ending with "a full end of all nations"?

I think these verses cover a large span of time and have not yet been fulfiled but we are in the process now.

[KevinG]

Your assumption that world war 1 and world war 2 were actually world wars is quite interesting...

Heh. Re-read that quote. It's a great one.

Of course not all countries were involved in WWI and WWII - but by their nature they were global confligrations. No person in the world was unaffected by the advance of war and war technology in the 20th century. I suspect if Joseph had never predicted world wide war there would be just as many critics complaining that he didn't predict something of such great and obvious import to the world.

I get it - you don't think Joseph Smith is a Prophet. But trust me the Civil War prophecy is not the silver bullet to Mormonisms wolf man you think it is.

[keith_brian]

"causal relationship" was not cited in my posts or Joseph's prophecy. Your entire argument against the LDS interpretation rests on something you erroniously read into the verse.

Lincoln does a better job of implying a causal relationship between slavery and the wrath of God in the Gettysburg address. (And I think he was kind of prophetic too).

As an aside the role of Prophet, Seer and Revelator in the LDS doctrines is not meant ot be oracle. There are a whole other host of issues with using a single prophetic statement to try to question the role of Joseph Smith as a Prophet.

Yep. No causal relationship between the two wars (a fact now acknowledged by both you and Le Sellers), meaning that JS was literally prophesying in the second part that a war would start sometime, somewhere, between a lot of nations -- in a best case analysis.

Go JS

[why me]

The indian wars started when the american colonies were settled and expansion out west began, so therefore, you just make my point that war never ceased to exist, so to claim that wars would become more prevalent is like me saying that tomorrow we'll still be fighting wars in the future.... well duh!

But that is not the point. The main wars against the indians occured after the civil war. It was then that sitting bull and the indian nations rose up against the US. And it was then that the indians were destroyed and housed in concentration camps. Who could predict that the indian nations would unite and rise up against the US? Not many. But certainly we would need to include these wars in the prophecy. But as good americans, we tend to forget the indian wars.

[Vance]

The indian wars started when the american colonies were settled and expansion out west began, so therefore, you just make my point that war never ceased to exist,

Name the Indian wars that occurred between the giving of the prophecy and the civil war. Remember you must demonstrate that they "never ceased".

Sorry but your bald assertion isn't good enough.

[keith_brian]

I think these verses cover a large span of time and have not yet been fulfiled but we are in the process now.

When all else fails, just extend the time frame.

New prophecy: Sometime in the next 500 years, a war will end all nations.

Wait, 500 ... I meant 1,000 ... no, 10,000, no ....

[KevinG]

I think these verses cover a large span of time and have not yet been fulfiled but we are in the process now.

Yup! There are direct links between European colonialism, the Nazis and the radicalization of Islam and the third world. I'm afraid the tale is not fully told.

Even so world politics took a decidedly more widespread and violent turn in the years folliwng the Civil War. Something that Joseph predicted (causal or not) before there was a precident for any worldwide war (or even a war between all deveoped nations). I'd say that's a pretty specific thing to get right.

[why me]

Yep. No causal relationship between the two wars (a fact now acknowledged by both you and Le Sellers), meaning that JS was literally prophesying in the second part that a war would start sometime, somewhere, between a lot of nations -- in a best case analysis.

Go JS

Well of course if you were an indian you may have a different take on it. The indian tribes were actually nations. The sioux nation, the blackfoot nation etc and they were powers among themselves. But they did unite against the white aggression eventually, just ten years after the civil war.

[ERayR]

Of course, isn't that what we're both doing? But again, what communications did the south need left open? That confused me. Not sure where you're headed with that. But to say the made treaties to keep lines of communication open means there must have been some sentiment from mexico saying they were going to close these lines? Ive never heard of such things..

If Great Britain is plural, which I agreed with already, then it's agreed that the mentioning of Great Britain must contain its plurality, meaning it is one nation. It is the nations of a whole, meaning one nation.

But it says that calling upon them will lead to other wars. Or the need for great britain to call upon other nations to help defend itself as well. Which none of that lead to any extra events directly from the civil war.... you're skirting that issue..

This has been said before but you are conveniently ignoring it. The other wars mentioned ARE NOT DIRECTLY from the Civil War. The Civil War was ONLY THE BEGINNING.

Edited September 14, 2011 by ERayR

[KevinG]

Yep. No causal relationship between the two wars (a fact now acknowledged by both you and Le Sellers), meaning that JS was literally prophesying in the second part that a war would start sometime, somewhere, between a lot of nations -- in a best case analysis.

Go JS

The common cause of all events was mans unrighteousness and the increasing influence of evil in the world. The need to stand in holy places was the conclusion of Joseph's warning. That was the topic of the prophecy.

[Vance]

When all else fails, just extend the time frame.

New prophecy: Sometime in the next 500 years, a war will end all nations.

Wait, 500 ... I meant 1,000 ... no, 10,000, no ....

Rev. 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Rev. 22: 7, 12, 20

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

• • •

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

• • •

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

When all else fails, just extend the time frame.

New prophecy: Sometime in the next 500 years, behold, I come quickly.

Wait, 500 ... I meant 1,000 ... no, 10,000, no ....

Oh no!!!

Edited September 14, 2011 by Vance

[why me]

Yup! There are direct links between European colonialism, the Nazis and the radicalization of Islam and the third world. I'm afraid the tale is not fully told.

Actually the nazis were great admirers of british colonialism and hitler did not want to disturb it. But what he did want was the land that they lost in WWI and more living room for the german people in europe.

Edited September 14, 2011 by why me

[Jesterss]

Heh. Re-read that quote. It's a great one.

Of course not all countries were involved in WWI and WWII - but by their nature they were global confligrations. No person in the world was unaffected by the advance of war and war technology in the 20th century. I suspect if Joseph had never predicted world wide war there would be just as many critics complaining that he didn't predict something of such great and obvious import to the world.

I get it - you don't think Joseph Smith is a Prophet. But trust me the Civil War prophecy is not the silver bullet to Mormonisms wolf man you think it is.

But see that's the thing, you think his prophecy was revelation on things to occur.. He didn't predict that new inventions of higher weaponry would occur.. and even if he had, that still wouldn't be significant.. as Americans we should know best.. We're the epitomy of having come from something not of our own, but then expanding upon others knowledge to create better things...

We didn't invent the ship, we rode one to america... England didn't invent kings and queens or a monarchy, they brought it with them from their previous settlements... the romans didn't invent the sword, they paired them with armor and horses to have the greatest army in the land.. in fact, war has been changed and perfected in many different ways throughout history..

[Jesterss]

Yup! There are direct links between European colonialism, the Nazis and the radicalization of Islam and the third world. I'm afraid the tale is not fully told.

Even so world politics took a decidedly more widespread and violent turn in the years folliwng the Civil War. Something that Joseph predicted (causal or not) before there was a precident for any worldwide war (or even a war between all deveoped nations). I'd say that's a pretty specific thing to get right.

pretty sure the bible in revelations predicts a great battle and destruction upon the world.. and that was long before JS..

[Jesterss]

This has been said before but you are conveniently ignoring it. The other wars mentioned ARE NOT DIRECTLY from the Civil War. The Civil War was ONLY THE BEGINNING.

How can you keep saying this?... Wars have existed since the beginning of time.. Are you admitting then that this prophecy was EXTREMELY vague and serves no purpose only to warn us that as we may already know, wars are going to continue up until Jesus comes to START/END all wars?..

[ERayR]

Your assumption that world war 1 and world war 2 were actually world wars is quite interesting.. Name every country in the world and then tell me how many of those actually were at war.. here's a map to help you out.. and this includes "verbal" commitments to such war, not that they even participated, but as you see, it does not include the entire world... http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/blww1involvedmap.htm

Just a clue. When they are named and known around the world as world wars just maybe they are. With your permission, of course.

[ERayR]

When all else fails, just extend the time frame.

New prophecy: Sometime in the next 500 years, a war will end all nations.

Wait, 500 ... I meant 1,000 ... no, 10,000, no ....

Perhaps reading what it actually says might help you. Try reading for comprehension. Uh no that would leave you without an argument.

[KevinG]

But see that's the thing, you think his prophecy was revelation on things to occur.. He didn't predict that new inventions of higher weaponry would occur.. and even if he had, that still wouldn't be significant.. as Americans we should know best.. We're the epitomy of having come from something not of our own, but then expanding upon others knowledge to create better things...

We didn't invent the ship, we rode one to america... England didn't invent kings and queens or a monarchy, they brought it with them from their previous settlements... the romans didn't invent the sword, they paired them with armor and horses to have the greatest army in the land.. in fact, war has been changed and perfected in many different ways throughout history..

What would you describe as "war poured out on all nations" if not the technology and politics that led to more effective killing in the name of the state? Are you arguing that war has not been poured out on all nations since the time of Joseph's prophecy? Or simply that he should have been more specific about the rise of the Third Reich, the expansionsim of Japan or perhaps the millitary adventurism of the Sovet Union?

If that is the case you aren't describing a Prophet (as though one revelation about wars makes or breaks his whole mission) you are asking for the Oracle of Delphi.

Some hints for you. LDS Prophets aren't inerrant. Their mission has a lot more to do with bringing us unto Christ and preaching repentance than predicting future political states. Again re-read the prophecy and its intended purpose. To warn people to stand in holy places because the world is not getting more welcoming.

[KevinG]

pretty sure the bible in revelations predicts a great battle and destruction upon the world.. and that was long before JS..

And yet atheists and critics of Christians complain that the prophecies are vague and have no real value. Nice company you keep.

[KevinG]

I will retire from teaching reading comprehension to a hostile audience as I have the calling of teaching physical fitness to an unwilling audiece of Boy Scouts. Tata!

[altersteve]

2. The resulting war will result in the death and misery of many souls. Fulfilled. - Definitely, many were killed, same with any other war though.. this didn't set a record for the world..

It did set a record for the nation, though. The Civil War was the bloodiest war in American history.

3. The South will call upon other nations, including Great Britain. Fulfilled. - Ahhh, here's the fun part, NATIONS, plurality is spoken here. Not just the nation of great britain, but other nation(s) which would include great britain.. As we know, great britain was the only ones called upon, but they weren't involved either.. so called upon sure, but not involved.. and great britain is not a plural nation...

Joseph never said Great Britain would get involved. He only said they would be called upon, which they were. The South also called upon France and other nations in addition to Great Britain.

4. And then (after the Civil War, in other words), war will be poured out upon all nations. Fulfilled, and still being fulfilled as we speak. - And then, oh what an interesting concept to understand what he meant.. If your wife told you she was going to go to walmart AND THEN go to the mall, would you assume she was going to walmart today and the mall next week?.. NO, she would be going to walmart at lets say 10:00am, then 2 hours after she's done there, she heads to the mall at noon..

"And then" means "after."

"I'm going to Walmart, and then I'm going to the mall" = "I'm going to the mall after I go to Walmart."

It's the same thing. You're twisting Joseph's words here. Either way, wars were poured out upon all nations immediately after the Civil War. That does not mean, however, that the Civil War was the cause of these wars.

AND THEN, does not represent a space in time, it represents one action followed by or leading to another action after...

No. "And then" means "after." I never said it "represent a space of time." A happens, and then B happens. It's that simple.

so your statement is that the civil war miraculously lead to the other wars?..

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the exact opposite, actually.

We know this to be false because the civil war did not lead to any sequential wars...

Exactly. Why are you saying this? This is precisely what I'm saying.

49 years was not spent by europe plotting how they could get america involved in a war that would involve the entire world (which world war 1, still did not involve all nations, despite its name)...

It doesn't matter. War was poured out upon all nations, immediately after the Civil War. Look at the list of wars that took place between the Civil War and World War I.

This is absurd. I'm done talking to you. Good day, sir.