Civil War Prophecy

[Nathair/|\]

While this is not the interpretation I accept, if one holds to a literalist reading of the word generation, one should consider that John the Beloved and the Three Nephites were alive when the prophecy given and have still not tasted of death. It is reasonable to suspect that there be others who were born in the early 19th century with the same status.

[Jesterss]

While this is not the interpretation I accept, if one holds to a literalist reading of the word generation, one should consider that John the Beloved and the Three Nephites were alive when the prophecy given and have still not tasted of death. It is reasonable to suspect that there be others who were born in the early 19th century with the same status.

That's actually quite an interesting perspective, I hadn't really approached it from that pov. plausible though.

[altersteve]

But you can't deny that he said "this generation".. meaning the current generation, he was not speaking in parables was he?

No, I never denied that. But the question is whether or not he was talking about the "current generation," as you keep claiming. If this were merely Joseph speaking as if he were God, then yes, he was probably talking about his own generation. But if the Lord really was speaking through him as he claimed, then "this generation" can have many different meanings. In the Bible, phrases and words like "a little season," "nigh," "quickly," and so forth, when spoken by the Lord, usually refer to a very large time period from our perspective, but always a very short time in God's eyes. What God sees as a "generation" and what we see as a "generation" are very different things, which is evident from Matthew 24:34. I personally believe that generation in this context most likely means dispensation.

Furthermore, some say that this may not have been a prophecy at all, but a commandment from God that the Saints failed to obey. I don't agree with that interpretation, though.

When were these stakes built? Seems to me they were built sometime later as to not make him look like a false prophet..

How convenient for you. Are you always going to use that excuse when you find a prophecy of his that actually came true? Or will you simply dismiss it as a coincidence?

The New York City Stake was first organized on December 9, 1934, and the Boston Massachusetts Stake on May 20, 1962.

Edited September 19, 2011 by altersteve

[thesometimesaint]

altersteve:

Food for thought. Every person whom has ever lived or will live is the "generation" of Adam.

[Jesterss]

No, I never denied that. But the question is whether or not he was talking about the "current generation," as you keep claiming. If this were merely Joseph speaking as if he were God, then yes, he was probably talking about his own generation. But if the Lord really was speaking through him as he claimed, then "this generation" can have many different meanings. In the Bible, phrases and words like "a little season," "nigh," "quickly," and so forth, when spoken by the Lord, usually refer to a very large time period from our perspective, but always a very short time in God's eyes. What God sees as a "generation" and what we see as a "generation" are very different things, which is evident from Matthew 24:34. I personally believe that generation in this context most likely means dispensation.

Furthermore, some say that this may not have been a prophecy at all, but a commandment from God that the Saints failed to obey. I don't agree with that interpretation, though.

You claim that Matthew 24 can be represent a large span of time, but I claim that Matthew 24 was simply referring to the generation in which these things would come to pass. His disciples asked about the end time, and Jesus spoke about it as if it were a vision so clear to him, as if he were living it before their eyes. So what that tells me, is when he says "this generation" he is referring to the generation who will be alive when the great tribulation occurs. Not to those he is speaking to. So your POV, to me, is misconstrued. What he says is a dispensation, I will agree, but this "generation" is indeed speaking of a time frame of human life, the two could not be intertwined in any language, as they do not come close to the same meaning.

How convenient for you. Are you always going to use that excuse when you find a prophecy of his that actually came true? Or will you simply dismiss it as a coincidence?

The New York City Stake was first organized on December 9, 1934, and the Boston Massachusetts Stake on May 20, 1962.

agree to disagree.

[altersteve]

You claim that Matthew 24 can be represent a large span of time, but I claim that Matthew 24 was simply referring to the generation in which these things would come to pass.

Yes. The very long time in which these things would come to pass.

His disciples asked about the end time, and Jesus spoke about it as if it were a vision so clear to him, as if he were living it before their eyes. So what that tells me, is when he says "this generation" he is referring to the generation who will be alive when the great tribulation occurs. Not to those he is speaking to.

Exactly. By "this generation," He means the last days, which is much longer than just one generation. I hope you realize that the great tribulation will take place over a very long period of time.

So your POV, to me, is misconstrued. What he says is a dispensation, I will agree, but this "generation" is indeed speaking of a time frame of human life, the two could not be intertwined in any language, as they do not come close to the same meaning.

CFR, please, that the current generation, the current "time frame of human life," was without question what Joseph was "indeed" talking about. I know for a fact that he didn't tell you that personally, so please provide your sources showing what Joseph's exact meaning was, not just your own critical interpretation that you are so desperate to find flaws with, or retract your statement. And before you ask, I don't need to provide any sources, nor will I; you made the claim, now back it up. Besides, the passage in question and inspiration from the Holy Spirit is all the evidence I need to know what God meant when He gave this revelation through the Prophet.

CFR also that generation and dispensation "do not come close to the same meaning," because that is completely incorrect. If I talk about "the current generation of the gospel," I am talking about "the current dispensation." The former may not be a term that most use or are familiar with, but there is no difference and both are accurate and accepted terms.

agree to disagree.

Um, disagree with what? That Joseph correctly prophesied that stakes would be established in both cities? That's a fact. There's no room for reasonable disagreement here, so no, I don't simply "agree to disagree" with you.

Are there any other prophecies of Joseph's that you'd like to analyze? Because I'd love to help. This is fun.

Edited September 19, 2011 by altersteve

[Jesterss]

Yes. The very long time in which these things would come to pass.

See below comment.

Exactly. By "this generation," He means the last days, which is much longer than just one generation. I hope you realize that the great tribulation will take place over a very long period of time.

How can you make this assertion? Sure, there are a sequence of events, but that doesn't necessitate a long period of time. CFR PLEASE!

CFR, please, that the current generation, the current "time frame of human life," was without question what Joseph was "indeed" talking about. I know for a fact that he didn't tell you that personally, so please provide your sources showing what Joseph's exact meaning was, not just your own critical interpretation that you are so desperate to find flaws with, or retract your statement. And before you ask, I don't need to provide any sources, nor will I; you made the claim, now back it up. Besides, the passage in question and inspiration from the Holy Spirit is all the evidence I need to know what God meant when He gave this revelation through the Prophet.

So you can know by the holy spirit but nobody else can... we must provide a reference, but you do not.. Love the double standard you live by... And what you quoted from me, was not anything regarding a discussion of Joseph Smith, that was about Matthew 24... I'm glad to see you like to make inaccurate assumptions as you claim others do of your belief..

CFR also that generation and dispensation "do not come close to the same meaning," because that is completely incorrect. If I talk about "the current generation of the gospel," I am talking about "the current dispensation." The former may not be a term that most use or are familiar with, but there is no difference and both are accurate and accepted terms.

dis·pen·sa·tion

noun \ˌdis-pən-ˈsā-shən, -ˌpen-\

Definition of DISPENSATION

1

a

:

a general state or ordering of things;

specifically

:

a system of revealed commands and promises regulating human affairs

b

:

a particular arrangement or provision especially of providence or nature

2

a

:

an exemption from a law or from an impediment, vow, or oath

b

:

a formal authorization

3

a

:

the act of

dispensing

b

:

something

dispensed

or distributed

— dis·pen·sa·tion·al adjective

gen·er·a·tion

noun \ˌje-nə-ˈrā-shən\

Definition of GENERATION

1

a

:

a body of living beings constituting a single step in the line of descent from an ancestor

b

:

a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously

c

:

a group of individuals having contemporaneously a status (as that of students in a school) which each one holds only for a limited period

d

:

a type or class of objects usually developed from an earlier type <first of the … new

generation

of powerful supersonic fighters — Kenneth Koyen>

2

a

:

the action or process of producing offspring

:

procreation

b

:

the process of coming or bringing into being <

generation

of income>

c

:

origination by a

generating

process

:

production

;

especially

:

formation of a geometric figure by motion of another

3

:

the average span of time between the birth of parents and that of their offspring

— gen·er·a·tion·al adjective

— gen·er·a·tion·al·ly adverb

First you need to understand what dispensation is apparently.. Because a dispensation is not a period of time, it is a set of revealed facts or commands. Statements. Not only that, you are trying to twist the understanding of a generation to fulfill that it is somehow a dispensation, when in fact, it is not...

perhaps you think generate and generation are the same thing.. please read the definitions more closely to better understand..

Um, disagree with what? That Joseph correctly prophesied that stakes would be established in both cities? That's a fact. There's no room for reasonable disagreement here, so no, I don't simply "agree to disagree" with you.

Are there any other prophecies of Joseph's that you'd like to analyze? Because I'd love to help. This is fun.

Again, you fail to understand the notion of "agree to disagree".. I never asked you to agree with me or said that this argument has ended in an agreement... In fact, stated quite the opposite... If you disagree with my standpoint, then indeed, you must agree to disagree... unless you plan on believing me, which you stated you don't, so.. again.. if you plan on trying to provide a level of understanding for others, you must first understand what you are even talking about in plain english...

[Vance]

Definition of GENERATION

2

b

:

the process of coming or bringing into being <

generation

of income>

c

:

origination by a

generating

process

:

production

;

By this definition, The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints, from its beginning, to now (and beyond) could be considered a single generation.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Mansquatch]

Verse 4 is a commandment and not a prediction. Moses wasn't a false prophet just because people broke the ten commandments after they were given. We know that this was a commandment and that it was broken because we have section 95 chastising the church for not building and commanding them again to build. This verse is just saying I want this generation to build a temple and do it here, which commandment was not followed. Verse 5 is actually a fully fulfilled prophecy. That generation did not pass away without a house being built unto the Lord.

4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. <--commandment

5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house. <--prophecy

[altersteve]

How can you make this assertion? Sure, there are a sequence of events, but that doesn't necessitate a long period of time. CFR PLEASE!

CFR for what? That the great tribulation will last a long time? That's simply my belief. I see no reason to believe that it will take place in just one "time frame of human life." I think that's absurd. You seem to be saying that it will last in one generation just so you can be content in declaring Joseph Smith a false prophet. It's sad that you feel the need to twist the words of the Savior in order to do this.

So you can know by the holy spirit but nobody else can...

I never said that, but I do have good reason to believe that you are not reading Joseph's prophecies by the power and inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

we must provide a reference, but you do not..

And I explained why. I have already provided my reasons for believing that God was talking about a longer period of time than simply a "time frame of human life." You made the unsupported claim that by "this generation," Joseph obviously, without question, meant his own current generation, but you have yet give us the reasons or sources for this.

Love the double standard you live by...And what you quoted from me, was not anything regarding a discussion of Joseph Smith, that was about Matthew 24... I'm glad to see you like to make inaccurate assumptions as you claim others do of your belief..

Yes, I know what you were talking about.

First you need to understand what dispensation is apparently.. Because a dispensation is not a period of time, it is a set of revealed facts or commands. Statements.

This is incorrect. A dispensation can and does refer to a period of time, and when Latter-day Saints refer to the current dispensation of the gospel, we are referring to a period of time. The dispensations of the gospel are the generations of time when the priesthood, God's authority, is operating on earth. The concept of dispensationalism dates back to Irenaeus, who, along with other Christian authors, developed his own system of divisions in biblical history. The doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that there have been many dispensations, the first of which was during the time of Adam. Subsequent dispensations include those of Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (known as "the meridian of time"), and of course the current and final dispensation, which is the "dispensation of the fullness of times" and which will prepare the world for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and continue through His millennial reign on earth. Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, and Joseph Smith are the heads of their respective dispensations, and Jesus Christ is the Head of all of them.

Generation and dispensation can, therefore, be used interchangeably.

Again, you fail to understand the notion of "agree to disagree".. I never asked you to agree with me or said that this argument has ended in an agreement... In fact, stated quite the opposite... If you disagree with my standpoint, then indeed, you must agree to disagree... unless you plan on believing me, which you stated you don't, so.. again.. if you plan on trying to provide a level of understanding for others, you must first understand what you are even talking about in plain english...

My point was that your position seems to be that Joseph did not correctly prophesy of the establishment of stakes in New York City and Boston. It is a fact that this prophecy was fulfilled. For you to simply "disagree" with that fact, and then request that we "agree to disagree," is completely absurd.

Edited September 19, 2011 by altersteve

[Jesterss]

By this definition, The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints, from its beginning, to now (and beyond) could be considered a single generation.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Ok? You're welcome? Are you then implying that anytime Joseph Smith said "this generation" that he was then referring to the generation of the church, which in your above statement is from then until the end? Ok. Fair enough, just as I stated before to Nathair..

I've already come to the conclusion that you being LDS believe that this was a very vague and generalized prophecy... Therefore, not worth the scrutiny of further discussion.. An understanding was reached there... It just happens to be a difference of opinion..

[Vance]

Ok? You're welcome? Are you then implying that anytime Joseph Smith said "this generation" that he was then referring to the generation of the church, which in your above statement is from then until the end?

Not implying anything about this or other usages. Just point out that "generation" has a broader meaning that most people understand.

[Jesterss]

CFR for what? That the great tribulation will last a long time? That's simply my belief. I see no reason to believe that it will take place in just one "time frame of human life." I think that's absurd. You seem to be saying that it will last in one generation just so you can be content in declaring Joseph Smith a false prophet. It's sad that you feel the need to twist the words of the Savior in order to do this.

CFR for your belief that it will be over a long period of time... I say it knowing that Jesus was referring to a specific people in a specific period of time of a generations life time... or else he wouldn't of said this generation.. see we have generations upon generations described in genesis. the understanding of generations has never been misrepresented, unless of course, we try to validate JS's prophecy... so.. CFR please..

I never said that, but I do have good reason to believe that you are not reading Joseph's prophecies by the power and inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

I have just as good or more of a reason to believe you are following your heart and not your mind... AKA, not understanding who you are really following..

And I explained why. I have already provided my reasons for believing that God was talking about a longer period of time than simply a "time frame of human life." You made the unsupported claim that by "this generation," Joseph obviously, without question, meant his own current generation, but you have yet give us the reasons or sources for this.

You did not provide any references, you only provided your BELIEF... belief is only of your accord, not of anyone elses. knowledge is knowledge, emotion is emotion.. two distinct concepts.. emotion does not guide you to God...

Yes, I know what you were talking about.

Then why misconstrue what I was saying? Trying to lead me down a false path?

This is incorrect. A dispensation can and does refer to a period of time, and when Latter-day Saints refer to the current dispensation of the gospel, we are referring to a period of time.

Oh yes, I forgot to break out the mormon dictionary on their belief of dispensation.. my apologies.. See, just because you say that a dispensation is a "time" of knowledge or revealed commands via your prophets, does not mean that a dispensation is a time period. See, you yourself admitted it was "current". Current would be your time frame, not the dispensation... Future, would be your period of time, dispensation is not..

The dispensations of the gospel are the generations of time when the priesthood, God's authority, is operating on earth. The concept of dispensationalism dates back to Irenaeus, who, along with other Christian authors, developed his own system of divisions in biblical history. The doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that there have been many dispensations, the first of which was during the time of Adam. Subsequent dispensations include those of Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (known as "the meridian of time"), and of course the current and final dispensation, which is the "dispensation of the fullness of times" and which will prepare the world for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and continue through His millennial reign on earth. Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, and Joseph Smith are the heads of their respective dispensations, and Jesus Christ is the Head of all of them.

You yourself in this bolded text, have admitted to the difference that a dispensation is not the time period, rather the generations distinguish the time periods.. The dispensation is what is occurring during the said time, not what defines the said time...

And there have been many dispensations, just as this conversation between the two of us could be states as a dispensation... You command me that JS is correct, I command you that you are following the wrong human sense..

Generation and dispensation can, therefore, be used interchangeably.

We just both proved that they couldn't be... So if Joseph Smith had said, this dispensation will not pass, would you assume he meant generation? or would you assume he meant what he was talking about would not pass?.. clearly option 2... cmon now.. stop twisting

My point was that your position seems to be that Joseph did not correctly prophesy of the establishment of stakes in New York City and Boston. It is a fact that this prophecy was fulfilled. For you to simply "disagree" with that fact, and then request that we "agree to disagree," is completely absurd.

But see, you disagree to agree with me... your view of time and deception is different than mine... We don't have to agree, and just because you think the fact that the churches were built some 100+ years after the death of JS means his prophecy came true, doesn't convince me that it was a true prophecy..

[Jesterss]

Not implying anything about this or other usages. Just point out that "generation" has a broader meaning that most people understand.

Definitely, and I have conceded that point.. No argument here..

[altersteve]

Definitely, and I have conceded that point.. No argument here..

Apparently there is an argument, because you've been arguing against that fact for the past three or four pages of this thread.

[Zakuska]

Verse 4 is a commandment and not a prediction. Moses wasn't a false prophet just because people broke the ten commandments after they were given. We know that this was a commandment and that it was broken because we have section 95 chastising the church for not building and commanding them again to build. This verse is just saying I want this generation to build a temple and do it here, which commandment was not followed. Verse 5 is actually a fully fulfilled prophecy. That generation did not pass away without a house being built unto the Lord.

4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. <--commandment

5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house. <--prophecy

Verse 5 was fulfilled 6 times over...

Kirtland, Nauvoo, Salt Lake, Logan, St George, Manti

and everything that was predicted... "a cloud shall rest upon it, Glory of the Lord shall fill this house" was fulfilled at Kirtland. (See Kirtland dedicatory prayer)

Edited September 19, 2011 by Zakuska

[altersteve]

CFR for your belief that it will be over a long period of time... I say it knowing that Jesus was referring to a specific people in a specific period of time of a generations life time... or else he wouldn't of said this generation.. see we have generations upon generations described in genesis. the understanding of generations has never been misrepresented, unless of course, we try to validate JS's prophecy... so.. CFR please..

The Bible never says how long it will last, so we are left with the events that it says will take place during that time. The "great tribulation" is simply the period of time leading up to the Second Coming of Christ, and that includes now. We are in the last days, the "generation" that Christ spoke about in Matthew 24. I don't believe the Second Coming will happen for awhile (there are still more things to be done, more prophecies to be fulfilled, more people to convert, etc.), and therefore don't believe that it will happen in a mere 7 years, despite what many fundamentalist and evangelical Christians claim. I believe it's happening now.

I have just as good or more of a reason to believe you are following your heart and not your mind... AKA, not understanding who you are really following..

I think I have a sound understanding of the One who I am following and of His word, thank you very much.

You did not provide any references, you only provided your BELIEF... belief is only of your accord, not of anyone elses. knowledge is knowledge, emotion is emotion.. two distinct concepts.. emotion does not guide you to God...

I provided my reasons for believing this. Something which you still have not done for your own claims.

Oh yes, I forgot to break out the mormon dictionary on their belief of dispensation.. my apologies.. See, just because you say that a dispensation is a "time" of knowledge or revealed commands via your prophets, does not mean that a dispensation is a time period. See, you yourself admitted it was "current". Current would be your time frame, not the dispensation... Future, would be your period of time, dispensation is not..

Again, a dispensation, when it comes to Christian and biblical history, is a time period; specifically, it is a period of time when the priesthood is operating on earth, like I said. A non-LDS source defines dispensationalism thus:

The Dispensationalist divides time into distinct "dispensations." The consistent distinguishing of these periods of time is referred to as "rightly dividing the word of truth" (a misuse of II Tim. 2:5 as translated in the KJV). The concept of "dispensations" is taken from the Greek word oikonomia, from which we get the English word "economy." The Greek word meant "stewardship, management, administration or arrangement." Based on the less than accurate KJV translation of oikonomia as "dispensation" in I Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10; 3:2; Col. 1:25, the early formulators of Dispensational theology defined a "dispensation" as "a period of time with a test that ends in failure," and began to divide all history accordingly. A more complete Dispensational definition of a "dispensation" might be "a period of time wherein (1) a distinctive idea of revelation is given by God, (2) a specific test of obedience is given based on that revelation, (3) man fails the test of obedience, (4) God judges man for his disobedience, and then establishes another dispensation." These dispensations do not build upon one another, but are regarded as totally distinct and separate from one another.

http://www.christiny...dthcthchth.html

C. I. Scofield, as another example, is widely known for his annotated Scofield Reference Bible, which popularized dispensationalism in the 20th century. In the New Scofield Study Bible, NIV, Oxford University Press., New York, 1967, page 3, he wrote:

"A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect to his obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.

Three important concepts are implied in this definition:

(1) a deposit of divine revelation concerning God's will, embodying what God requires of man as to his conduct

(2) man's stewardship of this divine revelation, in which he is responsible to obey it

(3) a time-period, often called an 'age,' during which this divine revelation is dominant in the testing of man's obedience to God.

The dispensations are a progressive and connected revelation of God's dealings with man, given sometimes to the whole race and at other times to a particular people, Israel. These different dispensations are not separate ways of salvation. During each of them man is reconciled to God in only one way, i.e., by God's grace through [faith in] the work of Christ that was accomplished on the cross and vindicated in His resurrection. Before the cross man was saved in prospect of Christ's atoning sacrifice, through believing the revelation thus far given him. Since the cross man has been saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ in Whom revelation and redemption are consummated."

Dispensationalist theologian Robert Thieme wrote, "A dispensation is a period of time expressing the divine viewpoint of human history. In other words, dispensations are the categories of human history, the divine outline of history, the divine interpretation of human history" (Dispensations, R. B. Thieme, Jr. Houston: Berachah Church, 1974, page eight).

Some Christian churches teach that God has divided the history of the world into seven dispensations (ages, or eras):

1. Innocence (before the Fall)

2. Conscience (between the Fall and the Flood)

3. Government (from Noah to Abraham)

4. Promise (from Abraham to Noah)

5. Law (from Moses to Christ)

6. Grace (the present)

7. The Millennium

So you are incorrect, Jesterss. A dispensation is a period of time, and it is not only defined as such in the "Mormon dictionary."

But see, you disagree to agree with me... your view of time and deception is different than mine... We don't have to agree, and just because you think the fact that the churches were built some 100+ years after the death of JS means his prophecy came true, doesn't convince me that it was a true prophecy..

The fact that one of the stakes (not churches, let's be specific here) was established during his lifetime and the other 100+ years after his death does mean his prophecy came true. There's no avoiding that. But fine, "disagree" with fact. That makes perfect sense.

Edited September 19, 2011 by altersteve

[Jesterss]

The Bible never says how long it will last, so we are left with the events that it says will take place during that time. The "great tribulation" is simply the period of time leading up to the Second Coming of Christ, and that includes now. We are in the last days, the "generation" that Christ spoke about in Matthew 24. I don't believe the Second Coming will happen for awhile (there are still more things to be done, more prophecies to be fulfilled, more people to convert, etc.), and therefore don't believe that it will happen in a mere 7 years, despite what many fundamentalist and evangelical Christians claim. I believe it's happening now.

7 years does not define a generation either.. 40 years would be more accurate of an estimation.. so I agree, 7 years may not be accurate, but a generation will be... how old they live to be is not understood, but the generation will exist from the beginning to the end of it..

I think I have a sound understanding of the One who I am following and of His word, thank you very much.

Again, we agree to disagree, that was my point on that..

I provided my reasons for believing this. Something which you still have not done for your own claims.

I haven't?.. Then what have we been discussing? Apparently I'm speaking to the wind..

Again, a dispensation, when it comes to Christian and biblical history, is a time period; specifically, it is a period of time when the priesthood is operating on earth, like I said. A non-LDS source defines dispensationalism thus:

http://www.christiny...dthcthchth.html

C. I. Scofield, as another example, is widely known for his annotated Scofield Reference Bible, which popularized dispensationalism in the 20th century. In the New Scofield Study Bible, NIV, Oxford University Press., New York, 1967, page 3, he wrote:

Dispensationalist theologian Robert Thieme wrote, "A dispensation is a period of time expressing the divine viewpoint of human history. In other words, dispensations are the categories of human history, the divine outline of history, the divine interpretation of human history" (Dispensations, R. B. Thieme, Jr. Houston: Berachah Church, 1974, page eight).

Some Christian churches teach that God has divided the history of the world into seven dispensations (ages, or eras):

1. Innocence (before the Fall)

2. Conscience (between the Fall and the Flood)

3. Government (from Noah to Abraham)

4. Promise (from Abraham to Noah)

5. Law (from Moses to Christ)

6. Grace (the present)

7. The Millennium

So you are incorrect, Jesterss. A dispensation is a period of time, and it is not only defined as such in the "Mormon dictionary."

Again, you refuse to realize that generations and dispensations cannot be confused as one and the same, nor interchangeable.. You are pulling random quotes to try to backup your stance, which none of them do.. Again, tell me, in the following sentence could you replace generation with dispensation: In your parents generation, there will be 2 wars. Now. If you said: in your parents dispensation, there will be 2 wars, you would have 2 completely different ideas. The first, generation, would be telling us that in your parents life time, there will be two wars. The second would be telling us that your parents are telling us that there will be 2 wars, in which, the time frame is unknown.. therefore, without a set or rule or notion of a time frame being set, dispensation has no relevancy in depicting time, unless noted with prior timely details such as anything referring to a timely state... how do you not understand this?

The fact that one of the stakes (not churches, let's be specific here) was established during his lifetime and the other 100+ years after his death does mean his prophecy came true. There's no avoiding that. But fine, "disagree" with fact. That makes perfect sense.

neither boston nor new york were constructed during JS's lifetime.. so, how are you being factual again?

[Jesterss]

The Dispensationalist divides time into distinct "dispensations." The consistent distinguishing of these periods of time is referred to as "rightly dividing the word of truth" (a misuse of II Tim. 2:5 as translated in the KJV). The concept of "dispensations" is taken from the Greek word oikonomia' date=' from which we get the English word "economy." The Greek word meant "stewardship, management, administration or arrangement." [/quote']

Your quote even tells us that dispensation was taken from the word oikonomia which we get the english word economy.. So now, does economy depict time?

[altersteve]

7 years does not define a generation either.. 40 years would be more accurate of an estimation.. so I agree, 7 years may not be accurate, but a generation will be... how old they live to be is not understood, but the generation will exist from the beginning to the end of it..

And I believe "generation," in the context of Matthew 24:34, refers to neither 7 nor 40 years, but simply to the last days as a whole.

I haven't?.. Then what have we been discussing? Apparently I'm speaking to the wind..

No, you have not provided references that Joseph Smith was talking about his own generation, and that he meant exactly what you say he meant.

Again, you refuse to realize that generations and dispensations cannot be confused as one and the same, nor interchangeable.. You are pulling random quotes to try to backup your stance, which none of them do.. Again, tell me, in the following sentence could you replace generation with dispensation: In your parents generation, there will be 2 wars. Now. If you said: in your parents dispensation, there will be 2 wars, you would have 2 completely different ideas. The first, generation, would be telling us that in your parents life time, there will be two wars. The second would be telling us that your parents are telling us that there will be 2 wars, in which, the time frame is unknown.. therefore, without a set or rule or notion of a time frame being set, dispensation has no relevancy in depicting time, unless noted with prior timely details such as anything referring to a timely state... how do you not understand this?

By saying they are "interchangeable," I meant that when "generation" is used in place of "dispensation" when referring to "dispensation of the gospel," it is accurate and appropriate. I didn't mean you can use one in place of the other in any circumstance. Sorry for not making that clear. However, these "random quotes" are simply to show that the word "dispensation," when used in a biblical context and in the theology of dispensationalism, can indeed be used to refer to a period of time. And not only Latter-day Saints use it as such, as I have also demonstrated.

neither boston nor new york were constructed during JS's lifetime.. so, how are you being factual again?

My bad, I misread "1934" for "1834." Either way, these stakes were indeed constructed just as Joseph Smith prophesied they would. Once again, prophecy = fulfilled.

Your quote even tells us that dispensation was taken from the word oikonomia which we get the english word economy.. So now, does economy depict time?

Of course not. But that doesn't mean "dispensation" doesn't. It does.

Edited September 19, 2011 by altersteve

[Vance]

Verse 5 was fulfilled 6 times over...

Kirtland, Nauvoo, Salt Lake, Logan, St George, Manti

and everything that was predicted... "a cloud shall rest upon it, Glory of the Lord shall fill this house" was fulfilled at Kirtland. (See Kirtland dedicatory prayer)

The funny thing is that this prophecy was given in KIRTLAND, prior to the temple being built there. Most people don't notice the subtle shift in language that occurs in the middle of verse 4.

D&C 84:2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, . . .

Notice that every reference to New Jerusalem implies a distant place. Now notice the shift.

. . . beginning at this place (as in Kirtland), even the place of the temple (as in a temple in Kirtland), which temple shall be reared in this generation (which was completed by that generation).

5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house (no specific house is expressed or implied) shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house (no specific house is expressed or implied).

So, now can someone explain to me how exactly that this prophecy was not fulfilled?

Edited September 19, 2011 by Vance

[Calm]

Definition of DISPENSATION

a

:

a general state or ordering of things;

specifically

:

a system of revealed commands and promises regulating human affairs

b

:

a particular arrangement or provision especially of providence or nature

2

a

:

an exemption from a law or from an impediment, vow, or oath

b

:

a formal authorization

3

a

:

the act of

dispensing

b

:

something

dispensed

or distributed

First you need to understand what dispensation is apparently.. Because a dispensation is not a period of time, it is a set of revealed facts or commands. Statements. Not only that, you are trying to twist the understanding of a generation to fulfill that it is somehow a dispensation, when in fact, it is not...

You need a better dictionary:

dis·pen·sa·tion...

noun

1.

an act or instance of dispensing; distribution.

2.

something that is distributed or given out.

3.

a certain order, system, or arrangement; administration or management.

4.

Theology.

a.

the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.

b.

an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.

c.

a divinely appointed order or age: the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

5.

a dispensing with, doing away with, or doing without something.dispense; see -ate¹) + -iōn- -ion

http://dictionary.re...se/dispensation Edited September 19, 2011 by calmoriah

[Jesterss]

You need a better dictionary:

http://dictionary.re...se/dispensation

surely you are not agreeing that dispensation represents the time frame? Mosaic, Jewish, new gospel, christian, those refer to the time frame: dispensation refers to the order of commandments used by those sects... when they received their list of commands.. dispensation still, is not a place holder for time or generations.. dispensation, as pointed out is: an act or instance of dispensing.

edit: as already corrected by altersteve, his view was initially that they were interchangeable, he then recently retracted that statement.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Jesterss

[Calm]

surely you are not agreeing that dispensation represents the time frame?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensation_%28period%29

How would you define "period in history"? I would define it as a period of time starting at a certain date and ending at another.

[altersteve]

edit: as already corrected by altersteve, his view was initially that they were interchangeable, he then recently retracted that statement.

That was never my view. I meant that they are interchangeable when used to describe dispensations of the gospel. Bad choice of words on my part.

But you are incorrect, still. In Mormonism and other religions, "dispensation" can be used to refer to a period of time (i.e., the theology of dispensationalism), which is why "dispensation," "generation," "age," and so forth all mean the same thing in certain contexts. In Mormonism specifically, a dispensation is any period of time that the priesthood is operating on the earth. "An act or instance of dispensing" is only one definition.

Edited September 19, 2011 by altersteve