Women As Saviors

[baddonkey]

I've been thinking lately about the redemptive role of women in the plan of salvation. We know that women participate in administering saving ordinances to the dead in temples and become saviors on Mount Zion. I wonder if it is possible on other earths for a Firstborn daughter to be a Savior of a world. Do you think that is possible?

[BCSpace]

I think anyone who trains up a child in the way they should go is a savior.

[Storm Rider]

I've been thinking lately about the redemptive role of women in the plan of salvation. We know that women participate in administering saving ordinances to the dead in temples and become saviors on Mount Zion. I wonder if it is possible on other earths for a Firstborn daughter to be a Savior of a world. Do you think that is possible?

No.

[stYro]

I've been thinking lately about the redemptive role of women in the plan of salvation. We know that women participate in administering saving ordinances to the dead in temples and become saviors on Mount Zion. I wonder if it is possible on other earths for a Firstborn daughter to be a Savior of a world. Do you think that is possible?

Personally, I don't have a problem with a female savior. On this earth the emphasis has been on "priesthood", and on another maybe the emphasis will be on "priestesshood".

[Storm Rider]

Personally, I don't have a problem with a female savior. On this earth the emphasis has been on "priesthood", and on another maybe the emphasis will be on "priestesshood".

Do you think God changes his order depending on the earth he creates? That position contradicts all that we have been taught about God. Is not Jesus the Savior of the entire universe?

[stYro]

Do you think God changes his order depending on the earth he creates? That position contradicts all that we have been taught about God. Is not Jesus the Savior of the entire universe?

I believe the Gods can do whatever they deem best in any given situation. If that includes a female savior on another planet, I have no problem with it. There have been female prophets on this one.

I do not believe Jesus is the Savior of the entire universe. How effective would a religion be that requires its followers to believe in, much less follow the example of, a Savior who allegedly lived and died on a planet they''ve never heard of, in a galaxy they can't even see? And what makes this earth so much more special than all the other planets in the universe?

Edited July 19, 2011 by stYro

[Gillebre]

One could make a similar statement about the Savior from our perspective, regarding the fact that He lived and died thousands of years ago. Jesus Christ is the Savior of all the creations of His Father, that much was clear, or so I believed.

Certainly the establishment of the Christian religion would be different in some ways, from it on our world, because as you said, this world is the one He came to for his mortal probation. Is it an act of faith to believe in a being we've never met, who lived and died thousands of years ago? Yes, it is, very much so. Is it a greater measure of faith to believe in a being who lived and died on a world far away, that one has never seen? Absolutely. We are commanded to put our faith in Him, for some it is easier than others. I believe that if God does have children on other worlds (and I do), who are subject to the same atonement of Jesus Christ as we are, then I believe He has provided a way that they may have faith in Him.

Didn't Christ say that there were sheep not of the present fold who He would also visit and minister to? I don't believe that was limited to the Nephites in the western hemisphere, nor to the children of God on this world.

In fact, you could make a comparison between the Nephites, and otherworldly children of God. Both groups are separated from the Savior's living ministry, at least one of them (perhaps both) was told what signs to watch for (of His birth, and death). Would it not be a greater blessing in faith to have the resurrected Lord visit you on your far away world? Hypothetically, the Prophets on that world would surely have testified of the Savior, and for a time, that might have to be enough (what of ministering Angels?). When He arose from the dead, His visit to them could very well inspire greater faith, because this Savior born on a far away world, whom their Prophets testified should live, die, and be resurrected, has come to their world.

Just a few thoughts. I claim no special insight on this topic, I just like thinking about things. I hope this provokes some thoughts in others.

EDIT: After I read your edit, I wanted to add one thing. I read several times, not sure where, that the reason the Savior came to this earth (keep in mind this might easily just be speculation, without substantiation in scripture or what have you), was because it was the most wicked of all, such that those on this earth were the only ones who'd murder the Son of God.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Gillebre

[baddonkey]

I seem to remember reading that Bruce R. McConkie liked Michaelangelo's sculpture the Pieta (Mary holding Jesus' dead body) because it encapsulated or symbolized both motherhood and priesthood. Would a woman need the priesthood to provide a vicarious atonement, for a Fall, through death though? Is spiritual redemption solely a function of priesthood?

[altersteve]

There are no other Saviors. Jesus Christ is the Savior of all of the worlds God created. The Book of Moses makes that perfectly clear.

[baddonkey]

There are no other Saviors. Jesus Christ is the Savior of all of the worlds God created. The Book of Moses makes that perfectly clear.

I'm not sure I understand you -- are you meaning to say that He is the savior of all the worlds that ever were or ever will be? That he atoned for the falls of each Adam on each of those worlds?

[jo1952]

One could make a similar statement about the Savior from our perspective, regarding the fact that He lived and died thousands of years ago. Jesus Christ is the Savior of all the creations of His Father, that much was clear, or so I believed.

Certainly the establishment of the Christian religion would be different in some ways, from it on our world, because as you said, this world is the one He came to for his mortal probation. Is it an act of faith to believe in a being we've never met, who lived and died thousands of years ago? Yes, it is, very much so. Is it a greater measure of faith to believe in a being who lived and died on a world far away, that one has never seen? Absolutely. We are commanded to put our faith in Him, for some it is easier than others. I believe that if God does have children on other worlds (and I do), who are subject to the same atonement of Jesus Christ as we are, then I believe He has provided a way that they may have faith in Him.

Didn't Christ say that there were sheep not of the present fold who He would also visit and minister to? I don't believe that was limited to the Nephites in the western hemisphere, nor to the children of God on this world.

In fact, you could make a comparison between the Nephites, and otherworldly children of God. Both groups are separated from the Savior's living ministry, at least one of them (perhaps both) was told what signs to watch for (of His birth, and death). Would it not be a greater blessing in faith to have the resurrected Lord visit you on your far away world? Hypothetically, the Prophets on that world would surely have testified of the Savior, and for a time, that might have to be enough (what of ministering Angels?). When He arose from the dead, His visit to them could very well inspire greater faith, because this Savior born on a far away world, whom their Prophets testified should live, die, and be resurrected, has come to their world.

Just a few thoughts. I claim no special insight on this topic, I just like thinking about things. I hope this provokes some thoughts in others.

EDIT: After I read your edit, I wanted to add one thing. I read several times, not sure where, that the reason the Savior came to this earth (keep in mind this might easily just be speculation, without substantiation in scripture or what have you), was because it was the most wicked of all, such that those on this earth were the only ones who'd murder the Son of God.

I had heard that it was only the children of Israel who could crucify their own Savior. But I couldn't even give you a reference on when or where or who told me that.

I enjoy this type of speculation and have enjoyed reading your post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

Regards,

jo

[Gillebre]

Jesus Christ is the Savior of all the creations of His Father.

Note: That isn't necessarily all the worlds that were, are, or will be, imo, because I don't believe all that exists to be the explicit creation of the Father.

[altersteve]

I'm not sure I understand you -- are you meaning to say that He is the savior of all the worlds that ever were or ever will be? That he atoned for the falls of each Adam on each of those worlds?

How do you know that each of those worlds had an Adam that fell? The Church doesn't teach that. We don't understand how it works, but it has never been said anywhere in any official LDS source that there are other Saviors or other Adams. If Jesus Christ is the Creator of all other worlds, and that " the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God" (Moses 1:33; D&C 76:23–24), then He is probably their Savior, too. Joseph Smith and W. W. Phelps also co-wrote a poem describing a vision Joseph had:

And I give a great voice bearing record from heav'n,

He's the Savior and only begotten of God;

By him, of him, and through him, the worlds were all made,

Even all that career in the heavens so broad.

Whose inhabitants, too, from the first to the last.

Are sav'd by the very same Saviour of ours;

And, of course, are begotten God's daughters and sons

By the very same truths and the very same powers.

I reject and am very uncomfortable with the idea that each world has, essentially, its own Jesus. That's borderline blasphemous to me.

Edited July 20, 2011 by altersteve

[K-2]

What about this:

"Oct. 6th. [1854] Attended conference, a very interesting conference, for at this meeting President Brigham Young said thus, that Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized..." (Joseph Lee Robinson Journal)

"The idea that the Son of God, who never committed sin, should sacrifice his life, is unquestionably preposterous to the minds of many in the Christian world. But the fact exists that the Father, the Divine Father, whom we serve, the God of the Universe, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father of our spirits, provided this sacrifice and sent his Son to die for us; and it is also a great fact that the Son came to do the will of the Father, and that he has paid the debt, in fulfillment of the Scripture which says, “He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Is it so on any other earth? On every earth. How many earths are there? I observed this morning that you may take the particles of matter composing this earth, and if they could be enumerated they would only be a beginning to the number of the creations of God; and they are continually coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same experience that we are passing through. Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let us know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fulness of glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof, in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through. Is this easy to understand? It is perfectly easy to me; and my advice to those who have queries and doubts on this subject is, when they reason and philosophize upon it, not to plant their position in falsehood or argue hypothetically, but upon the facts as they exist, and they will come to the conclusion that unless God provides a Savior to pay this debt it can never be paid." (Jof D 14:71-72)

As for whether a woman could be a Savior, Joseph Smith said it "was the provence of the Father to preside as Chief or President -- Jesus as the Mediator & Holy Ghost as the testator or witness." (WJS 64) This remark shows that Jesus, as the Mediator or Savior, is a member of a priesthood presidency, and therefore the position he occupies certainly must require Him to hold the priesthood.

[jo1952]

What about this:

"Oct. 6th. [1854] Attended conference, a very interesting conference, for at this meeting President Brigham Young said thus, that Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized..." (Joseph Lee Robinson Journal)

"The idea that the Son of God, who never committed sin, should sacrifice his life, is unquestionably preposterous to the minds of many in the Christian world. But the fact exists that the Father, the Divine Father, whom we serve, the God of the Universe, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father of our spirits, provided this sacrifice and sent his Son to die for us; and it is also a great fact that the Son came to do the will of the Father, and that he has paid the debt, in fulfillment of the Scripture which says, “He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Is it so on any other earth? On every earth. How many earths are there? I observed this morning that you may take the particles of matter composing this earth, and if they could be enumerated they would only be a beginning to the number of the creations of God; and they are continually coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same experience that we are passing through. Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let us know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fulness of glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof, in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through. Is this easy to understand? It is perfectly easy to me; and my advice to those who have queries and doubts on this subject is, when they reason and philosophize upon it, not to plant their position in falsehood or argue hypothetically, but upon the facts as they exist, and they will come to the conclusion that unless God provides a Savior to pay this debt it can never be paid." (Jof D 14:71-72)

As for whether a woman could be a Savior, Joseph Smith said it "was the provence of the Father to preside as Chief or President -- Jesus as the Mediator & Holy Ghost as the testator or witness." (WJS 64) This remark shows that Jesus, as the Mediator or Savior, is a member of a priesthood presidency, and therefore the position he occupies certainly must require Him to hold the priesthood.

Thank you for sharing! These certainly give us something to think about. My husband and I have recently been contemplating similar thoughts which we have arrived at upon our own which are actually pretty close to what you offered from the J of D. We were unaware of the above quotes.

Inasmuch as it appears there may not be a woman called to become a savior of an earth, I believe that certainly her influences will always be in the background. BTW, is anyone aware of whether the Holy Ghost's gender has been identified? I know that we say "He"; but is that just tradition; an assumption?

On the lighter side (i.e., in jest), we all know that Hitler taught and was well aware that the women do a much more complete job of fulfilling their responsibilities, even if all that is accomplished is a note tied to a rock in a drive-by visit. What say Home Teachers to this? Perhaps it is female gods who are keeping the male gods "in line".

Regards,

jo

Edited July 20, 2011 by jo1952

[stYro]

Very interesting Brigham Young quote, K-2. Thanks for posting that.

As for whether a woman could be a Savior, Joseph Smith said it "was the provence of the Father to preside as Chief or President -- Jesus as the Mediator & Holy Ghost as the testator or witness." (WJS 64) This remark shows that Jesus, as the Mediator or Savior, is a member of a priesthood presidency, and therefore the position he occupies certainly must require Him to hold the priesthood.

We are accustomed to equating "priesthood" with "males only". But recall that in Joseph's day there was at least one very high priesthood quorum that included women, the Quorum of the Anointed, sometimes called the Holy Order.

Also, note that the word Elohim is a plural word, translated as "Gods" in the Book of Abraham. That there were females included is obvious when Adam and Eve were both created in Their image. Whether we call it Priesthood or Priestesshood or Godhood, I do not think females are excluded because of their gender, at least not in the higher worlds.

Does this mean that any of those Saviors on other Earths that Brigham Young talks about are necessarily female? Of course not. But I don't see anything that precludes the possibility either.

stYro

Edited July 20, 2011 by stYro

[Storm Rider]

Very interesting Brigham Young quote, K-2. Thanks for posting that.

We are accustomed to equating "priesthood" with "males only". But recall that in Joseph's day there was at least one very high priesthood quorum that included women, the Quorum of the Anointed, sometimes called the Holy Order.

Also, note that the word Elohim is a plural word, translated as "Gods" in the Book of Abraham. That there were females included is obvious when Adam and Eve were both created in Their image. Whether we call it Priesthood or Priestesshood or Godhood, I do not think females are excluded because of their gender, at least not in the higher worlds.

Does this mean that any of those Saviors on other Earths that Brigham Young talks about are necessarily female? Of course not. But I don't see anything that precludes the possibility either.

stYro

If one seeks to speculate then I am sure we could imagine a member of the animal kingdom talking and being a member of the Godhead; but letting imagination run wild is not a path to truth. It remains wild speculation. Some would have no problem with a female savior, praying only to a Heavenly Mother or even a Father Malamute. But one's ability to adapt to any form of Godhead says more about the individual than anything. Sometimes flexibility only means being blown about by any wind of doctrine.

[stYro]

If one seeks to speculate then I am sure we could imagine a member of the animal kingdom talking and being a member of the Godhead; but letting imagination run wild is not a path to truth. It remains wild speculation. Some would have no problem with a female savior, praying only to a Heavenly Mother or even a Father Malamute. But one's ability to adapt to any form of Godhead says more about the individual than anything. Sometimes flexibility only means being blown about by any wind of doctrine.

Could you please be specific and tell me what part of my post you consider to be "wild speculation".

As for the rest of your post, it looks to me like you're mostly arguing against things I didn't say, rather than against things I did. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you wish to say something about me as an individiual, kindly come out and say it instead of making insinuations.

stYro

Edited July 20, 2011 by stYro

[Storm Rider]

Could you please be specific and tell me what part of my post you consider to be "wild speculation".

As for the rest of your post, it looks to me like you're mostly arguing against things I didn't say, rather than against things I did. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you wish to say something about me as an individiual, kindly come out and say it instead of making innuendos.

stYro

No, I am not speaking directly to you personally on the whole post. Your post motivated my comment, but I also read all the other posts and use one to answer several.

You have said a few times you have no problem with a female savior. That doctrinal flexibility is not something that wins kudos. If we let our mind run wild, any of us, we can twist truth into complete falsehood. At times social flexibility is the result of a desire to be accepted, or admired, by our peers and social circles. The Way is straight and narrow; I interpret that to mean, in the context of this thread, that flexibility is not something that speeks anyone to enter therein.

[stYro]

No, I am not speaking directly to you personally on the whole post. Your post motivated my comment, but I also read all the other posts and use one to answer several.

You have said a few times you have no problem with a female savior. That doctrinal flexibility is not something that wins kudos. If we let our mind run wild, any of us, we can twist truth into complete falsehood. At times social flexibility is the result of a desire to be accepted, or admired, by our peers and social circles. The Way is straight and narrow; I interpret that to mean, in the context of this thread, that flexibility is not something that speeks anyone to enter therein.

Thanks for the clarification.

Do you dispute my claim that females can hold priesthood (or priestesshood) and are included among the Gods?

Do you believe that Jesus calls upon men and women both to become like Him?

If so, do you think it's possible for men and/or women to become like Him?

That'll do for now.

stYro

Edited July 20, 2011 by stYro

[baddonkey]

It seems to me that women must have held the priesthood (priestesshood?) in order to have been classed among the "noble and great ones" in the pre-mortal existence, so I don't know why they would not still be able to be saviors.

[Storm Rider]

Thanks for the clarification.

Do you dispute my claim that females can hold priesthood (or priestesshood) and are included among the Gods?

Do you believe that Jesus calls upon men and women both to become like Him?

If so, do you think it's possible for men and/or women to become like Him?

That'll do for now.

stYro

I would broaden the term from priesthood to power and glory. Priesthood includes power and glory, but it primiarly is the assignment to preside, guide, direct, etc. We have heavenly parents; I do not know why God withheld information about our Heavenly Mother, but it is evident he did. I believe that both male and female will be gods and goddesses if exalted.

Jesus calls on each being to follow him; to become one with him in mind, heart, and spirit.

Yes, we may become exalted through the Grace and Atonement of Jesus Christ.

[altersteve]

I would just like to add one more thing. The fact that Jesus is constantly referred to in scripture as the Only Begotten Son of God makes it amazingly clear that He is the Son of God (not just a son of God), the Redeemer, and the Savior of all that exists. Of Him there is no other.

Like I said, I completely reject the idea that each world has its own Jesus. There is nothing scriptural or, in my opinion, logical about it.

[baddonkey]

I would just like to add one more thing. The fact that Jesus is constantly referred to in scripture as the Only Begotten Son of God makes it amazingly clear that He is the Son of God (not just a son of God), the Redeemer, and the Savior of all that exists. Of Him there is no other.

Like I said, I completely reject the idea that each world has its own Jesus. There is nothing scriptural or, in my opinion, logical about it.

So if you gain exaltation, you expect your children on the worlds you create to be redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ rather than that of your firstborn spirit son?

Didn't Joseph Smith teach in the King Follet Discourse that Jesus did just what the Father had done -- took a body and went to redeem a world in the flesh?

[altersteve]

I don't expect myself to ever become exactly as Heavenly Father is, or to create worlds populated by my "spirit children," so no. That's an idea that I, based on my own limited understanding, also reject. To "become a god," I feel, is something that is very different from what most Latter-day Saints probably believe. But the fact of the matter is that all of the worlds that the Father created, all living things, were redeemed by Jesus Christ. There are no other Saviors in this universe. As I've said before, the scriptures make that very clear. If you believe that each world created by the Father has its own Savior, then you do not believe or understand what God has already told us regarding the matter. Such an idea is directly counter to the gospel, since the gospel is centered on Christ and on Christ only.