Gadianton Robbers -- Anyone Ever Find Empirical Evidence Of Their Existence?

[Doug the Hutt]

There's so much time spent looking for Nephites in the Great Lakes/Mesoamerica/Arizona/Vina-del-Mar/etc., but what about others such as the Gadianton robbers? What is the best that scholars have found to demonstrate that the great secret society of Gadianton robbers actually existed?

[thesometimesaint]

Doug the Hutt:

The Church takes no position as to the location of the main events described in the Book of Mormon. I'm not sure that we would recognize any such evidence as evidence.

[LeSellers]

I'm not sure that we would recognize any such evidence [of the Gadianton Robbers in the Book of Mormon] as evidence.

More to the point, most of us don't recognize the Gaddiantons even when they're among us. How could we expect to accept evidence of them from two millennia ago?

Lehi

P.S.: This time, the REP point's for real. LS

Edited July 5, 2011 by LeSellers

[Kevin Christensen]

See Brant Gardner's FAIR essay here:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2002_Gadianton_Robbers_in_Mormons_Theological_History.html

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

I have no problem with believing modern day Gaddiatons existing even amongst us. I just have no solid empirical evidence for Lehites. For me they remain plausible. Who knows what the next shovel full of dirt will discover?

[Doctor Ninja]

What do you propose that we do to gain this "empirical evidence"? For there is no (non-LDS) organization or researchers in this world who would seriously take this on.

The only other option if for LDS scholars and LDS experts to fulfill this role, yet you would consider this as "biased" research. Even if you were open to hearing them out and they gave undeniable evidence - it will not change your already set conclusions.

So we end up at a crossroad. We really have to rely on the validity of the Book of Mormon. Is it true or false?

[Doug the Hutt]

What do you propose that we do to gain this "empirical evidence"? For there is no (non-LDS) organization or researchers in this world who would seriously take this on.

How have researchers gained empirical evidence for the Romans, Huns, Hittites, Sumerians, Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Bretons, Lemba, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Celts, Scots, Vikings, Clovis, Anasazi, Greeks, Canaanites, Chinese and many others? Seems that method works pretty well. Let's use that.

The only other option if for LDS scholars and LDS experts to fulfill this role, yet you would consider this as "biased" research.

I think it's great that LDS scholars/experts dedicate their time, talents, experience and knowledge into trying to discover Book of Mormon peoples, places and things. The only things I expect out of research is that:

1. it doesn't try to explain away legitimate concerns

2. that it doesn't cherry-pick evidence to support it while knowingly omitting evidence to disprove their thesis, that it doesn't try to mash a square peg into a round hole, so-to-speak,

3. not to make more out of similarities than is reasonable:

4. that it should at some point find actual evidence, not just more plausibilities.

Your assertion that I would consider it biased out of hand is simply a rhetorical tool to look past the inherent problems of identifying people, places and things in the Book of Mormon and placing the problem squarely upon me. It's not that there's any problem with the source, it's that I'm a big stubborn snaggletoothed yokel would deny the rocky structure of the Moon in favor of its being made of green cheese because that's what I learnt from Tom & Jerry. I probably overemphasized the thing about the tooth.

Even if you were open to hearing them out and they gave undeniable evidence - it will not change your already set conclusions.

When will that undeniable evidence be presented? This year's FAIR conference?

I'll have you know my conclusions are not set -- the very hope of someday having my questions answered keeps me interested. I've said it before and I'll say it again -- if the Book of Mormon is true(meaning that it's a real history about real people and the Prophet really did possess gold plates and really did translate it from reformed Egyptian into English) and if the LDS Church is true (meaning it's really Jesus' preferred non-apostate Church of Himself) then everybody should join it and be blessed by it. If the Book of Mormon was invented then Joseph was not a true prophet, but a false one -- the same Jesus warned us about in the New Testament, and we should be screaming out warnings to our family and community from every roof-top. I owe it to myself to make that kind of commitment in sobriety, doing the best with the mental faculties with which God made me lest someone denounce me as a lazy unprofitable servant (see other threads for details).

So we end up at a crossroad. We really have to rely on the validity of the Book of Mormon. Is it true or false?

Crossroads indeed. No matter how much I hear people telling me humbly how God actually told them that the Book of Mormon is true & all, I can't help but recognize the power of self-deception, of mania, of sincerely believing but being completely off-base, of how lack of nutrients due to fasting affects resistance to suggestion, of how cultural and societal pressures keep people inside their religions despite other choices being available, etc. For me I cannot believe that the vast Jaredite and Lehite civilizations just up & vanished. Something has to be out there that validates it, that is, unless it never happened. If the latter is the case then we could literally pick the Earth apart molecule by molecule and never find anything, and it would be a shameful waste of time, talents, energy and money if we let it go that far without finding something concrete. You wouldn't tear apart the Earth to vindicate the reality of Cthulhu, would you? The only thing you'd get is a whole lotta nothin' -- that and Cthulhu-believers who keep explaining away why we can't seem to find him but continue insisting that it's your stubbornness that's preventing success. I guess there should be a probability scale -- that after X amount of work over the time Y that the probability of a thing Z should be either more likely or less likely.

This has been all very interesting but it detracts from the OP -- is there evidence of Gadianton robbers or do we just keep it left in that bag labeled "we're so incapable of even recognizing Gadianton robbers that they could be in Congress right now robbing us of our future and we'd never know it!!!"? Anyone? Any local histories that describe a secret society similar to the Illuminati that undermined an ancient power and brought it to its knees? Any legends of a man named "Gadianton"? Anything? I guess until we find something I have to add Gadianton robbers to the list of things we can't seem to find somewhere in the Americas(large target) to affirmatively show the reality of the Book of Mormon. (I know, that's a long title for a list).

Have a nice day.

[Doctor Ninja]

How have researchers gained empirical evidence for the Romans, Huns, Hittites, Sumerians, Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Bretons, Lemba, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Celts, Scots, Vikings, Clovis, Anasazi, Greeks, Canaanites, Chinese and many others? Seems that method works pretty well. Let's use that.

I think it's great that LDS scholars/experts dedicate their time, talents, experience and knowledge into trying to discover Book of Mormon peoples, places and things. The only things I expect out of research is that:

1. it doesn't try to explain away legitimate concerns

2. that it doesn't cherry-pick evidence to support it while knowingly omitting evidence to disprove their thesis, that it doesn't try to mash a square peg into a round hole, so-to-speak,

3. not to make more out of similarities than is reasonable:

4. that it should at some point find actual evidence, not just more plausibilities.

Your assertion that I would consider it biased out of hand is simply a rhetorical tool to look past the inherent problems of identifying people, places and things in the Book of Mormon and placing the problem squarely upon me. It's not that there's any problem with the source, it's that I'm a big stubborn snaggletoothed yokel would deny the rocky structure of the Moon in favor of its being made of green cheese because that's what I learnt from Tom & Jerry. I probably overemphasized the thing about the tooth.

When will that undeniable evidence be presented? This year's FAIR conference?

I'll have you know my conclusions are not set -- the very hope of someday having my questions answered keeps me interested. I've said it before and I'll say it again -- if the Book of Mormon is true(meaning that it's a real history about real people and the Prophet really did possess gold plates and really did translate it from reformed Egyptian into English) and if the LDS Church is true (meaning it's really Jesus' preferred non-apostate Church of Himself) then everybody should join it and be blessed by it. If the Book of Mormon was invented then Joseph was not a true prophet, but a false one -- the same Jesus warned us about in the New Testament, and we should be screaming out warnings to our family and community from every roof-top. I owe it to myself to make that kind of commitment in sobriety, doing the best with the mental faculties with which God made me lest someone denounce me as a lazy unprofitable servant (see other threads for details).

Crossroads indeed. No matter how much I hear people telling me humbly how God actually told them that the Book of Mormon is true & all, I can't help but recognize the power of self-deception, of mania, of sincerely believing but being completely off-base, of how lack of nutrients due to fasting affects resistance to suggestion, of how cultural and societal pressures keep people inside their religions despite other choices being available, etc. For me I cannot believe that the vast Jaredite and Lehite civilizations just up & vanished. Something has to be out there that validates it, that is, unless it never happened. If the latter is the case then we could literally pick the Earth apart molecule by molecule and never find anything, and it would be a shameful waste of time, talents, energy and money if we let it go that far without finding something concrete. You wouldn't tear apart the Earth to vindicate the reality of Cthulhu, would you? The only thing you'd get is a whole lotta nothin' -- that and Cthulhu-believers who keep explaining away why we can't seem to find him but continue insisting that it's your stubbornness that's preventing success. I guess there should be a probability scale -- that after X amount of work over the time Y that the probability of a thing Z should be either more likely or less likely.

This has been all very interesting but it detracts from the OP -- is there evidence of Gadianton robbers or do we just keep it left in that bag labeled "we're so incapable of even recognizing Gadianton robbers that they could be in Congress right now robbing us of our future and we'd never know it!!!"? Anyone? Any local histories that describe a secret society similar to the Illuminati that undermined an ancient power and brought it to its knees? Any legends of a man named "Gadianton"? Anything? I guess until we find something I have to add Gadianton robbers to the list of things we can't seem to find somewhere in the Americas(large target) to affirmatively show the reality of the Book of Mormon. (I know, that's a long title for a list).

Have a nice day.

Let me put it in another way in regards to evidence. The ancient Mayan cities that have been discovered, we don't even know the original names of the cities. Of the 6000 archaeological sites, 0.5-1% have been excavated. How do you propose that we go about to answer your OP? I really don't see how that is possible at this time, hence the crossroad.

Are you going to wait until the 99% have been excavated?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

There's so much time spent looking for Nephites in the Great Lakes/Mesoamerica/Arizona/Vina-del-Mar/etc., but what about others such as the Gadianton robbers? What is the best that scholars have found to demonstrate that the great secret society of Gadianton robbers actually existed?

Empirical evidence for the Gadianton Robbers: Democrats. Bwaahhahahahhaa

[Jeff K.]

The Gadianton robbers were ubiquitous in the past, as they are in the present. They may have other names.... Publicans, revenoors, tax collectors.... Oh yeah, they are around. The last check I sent to them is all the proof I need.

[Brant Gardner]

Any local histories that describe a secret society similar to the Illuminati that undermined an ancient power and brought it to its knees?

Would you mind pointing me to the local histories of any location in the Americas prior to AD 400 that we can read.

You also mentioned legends, but I suspect you don't have much background in folklore theory and can't tell me how to reconstruct legendary material into historical information from different cultures and languages 1000 years prior to the collection of the legends.

Let me know what sources we have to work with, and I promise I will get right on it.

[rodheadlee]

Your assertion that I would consider it biased out of hand is simply a rhetorical tool to look past the inherent problems of identifying people, places and things in the Book of Mormon and placing the problem squarely upon me. It's not that there's any problem with the source, it's that I'm a big stubborn snaggletoothed yokel would deny the rocky structure of the Moon in favor of its being made of green cheese because that's what I learnt from Tom & Jerry. I probably overemphasized the thing about the tooth.

When will that undeniable evidence be presented? This year's FAIR conference?

It's not that difficult, it's right there on the modern map. El Salvador, the Savior. I'd say that's where Christ came to visit the Nephites and Lamanites.

[cdowis]

How have researchers gained empirical evidence for the Romans, Huns, Hittites, Sumerians, Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Bretons, Lemba, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Celts, Scots, Vikings, Clovis, Anasazi, Greeks, Canaanites, Chinese and many others? Seems that method works pretty well. Let's use that.

Brilliant suggestion. Now why didn't we think of that.

Just give us some of those ancient written records from that time period in that location, and we will look around. Ancient records worked for the other civilizations, so let's see what you got to help us on the BOM.

I'm sure that these secret societies kept lots of records in plain sight so that we could find them.

Thanks for the suggestion. Please give us a link to those records.

Edited July 6, 2011 by cdowis

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

There's so much time spent looking for Nephites in the Great Lakes/Mesoamerica/Arizona/Vina-del-Mar/etc., but what about others such as the Gadianton robbers? What is the best that scholars have found to demonstrate that the great secret society of Gadianton robbers actually existed?

How has empirical evidence made your faith more palatable (acceptable)?

[Jeff K.]

The difficulty with criminal elements is that when they reach a critical mass, they suddenly become rivals for a nation. Would we consider the mysterious "Sea Peoples" that may have brought about the Greek Dark Ages a type of Gaddianton? What names would be given Gaddianton in other languages, and would they be identified as a criminal element (something that is more suited for the past few centuries) or as rival military powers? How exactly does one decide?

The reason I bring this up is that the same questions would have to be answered for American archeology. How would you distinguish Gaddianton from rival political powers in the Americas? And given their stint is relatively short, how much more difficult would it be to find their evidence than other evidence for different aspects of early civilization? It is almost like saying "I can't find molecules, so I will look for atoms".

Those I think are inherent difficulties.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Jeff K.

[Storm Rider]

There's so much time spent looking for Nephites in the Great Lakes/Mesoamerica/Arizona/Vina-del-Mar/etc., but what about others such as the Gadianton robbers? What is the best that scholars have found to demonstrate that the great secret society of Gadianton robbers actually existed?

Fundamentally your question is an attempt to argue that where archeological evidence exists then that absence means a refutation of the proposal. This standard has two sides and cuts both ways. Too many Christians ignorantly assume that the Bible is a history book and everything is proved by evidence. Unfortuantely, the most important characters found in the Bible have no support from archeology for their existence. Should we then throw out the Bible for being unsupported?

This proposed standard is unacceptable for both the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

[Olavarria]

Checkout this old thread.

[volgadon]

You ought first to define what it is we should be looking for.