In The Image Of God

[maklelan]

I'm not disputing that צלם has reference to physical appearance/form. I grant that, freely. The question is whether a bare lexical analysis delivers the theological intent of the phrase.

While there is certainly room to read quite a bit of theology into the text, I think it would be difficult to show that any such readings were intended by the author. The use of the same phrase in Gen 5:3 to reference the procreation of Adam's son shows the phrase was not of significant theological import.

[cksalmon]

The use of the same phrase in Gen 5:3 to reference the procreation of Adam's son shows the phrase was not of significant theological import.

The conclusion doesn't follow. Even if were to follow, we aren't just interested in the words qua words, or the phrase qua phrase, but in how the phrase functions in the context of the creation narrative. Whether, to borrow from Clines, we find here a mere obiter dictum (which is where your view tends, though you haven't gone that far) or a carefully considered theologoumenon.

To insist it does carry that significance raises the question of how that significance applies to the human's procreation of his own son.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, here. What I took exception to was your dogmatic conclusion that "the phrase was not of significant theological import," based solely on its repetition in another (analogous) context.

Edited July 9, 2011 by cksalmon

[maklelan]

The conclusion doesn't follow.

For the same phrase used of God's creation of Adam to be used also of a human's procreation of his own son undermines the notion that the phrase in reference to God's creation carries with it theological significant. To insist it does carry that significance raises the question of how that significance applies to the human's procreation of his own son.

[cksalmon]

For the same phrase used of God's creation of Adam to be used also of a human's procreation of his own son undermines the notion that the phrase in reference to God's creation carries with it theological significant. To insist it does carry that significance raises the question of how that significance applies to the human's procreation of his own son.

See above. My edit was corrupted due to inactivity.

[Bernard Gui]

EDIT: Not worth the hassle.

Bernard

Edited July 9, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Coolrok: You have the stage....

Anyone care to opine on the "orthodox" meaning of "created in the image of God?"

Bernard

[coolrok7]

The image of God (spiritually speaking) in which Adam was created, is that Adam was brought into being as a physical/spiritual being, “in the beginning”. From the dust of the earth (the physical element) in which God breathed into this form (the spiritual element, in the image of God) the breath of life (Genesis 1 and 2):

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:26-27)

In the Old Testament we are forbidden to make any graven image and worship it:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; . . . (Exodus 20:4-5)

Continuing on in a little more detail (the image of God is not necessarily physical):

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. . . . And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2:7-8, 21-25)

I would appeal to the words of Jesus here as He is the authority on the subject:

And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. (Luke 24:36-40)

Edited July 9, 2011 by coolrok7

[maklelan]

The conclusion doesn't follow. Even if were to follow, we aren't just interested in the words qua words, or the phrase qua phrase, but in how the phrase functions in the context of the creation narrative. Whether, to borrow from Clines, we find here a mere obiter dictum (which is where your view tends, though you haven't gone that far) or a carefully considered theologoumenon.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, here. What I took exception to was your dogmatic conclusion that "the phrase was not of significant theological import," based solely on its repetition in another (analogous) context.

The original theological significance of the notion, if we must have one, was that Adam was the image of God, thus precluding the need for idols (the sense of virtually all other uses of tselem). The author of this portion of Genesis was the priestly writer, who was directly concerned with the use of idols in worship. I don't find this a terribly significant theological point for modern readers of the Bible.

[Bernard Gui]

The image of God (spiritually speaking) in which Adam was created, is that Adam was brought into being as a physical/spiritual being, “in the beginning”. From the dust of the earth (the physical element) in which God breathed into this form (the spiritual element, in the image of God) the breath of life (Genesis 1 and 2):

In the Old Testament we are forbidden to make any graven image and worship it:

Continuing on in a little more detail (the image of God is not necessarily physical):

I would appeal to the words of Jesus here as He is the authority on the subject:

I'm having a hard time understanding this.

Bernard

[coolrok7]

To clarify further for you Bernard, the bottom line here is the different view of the spiritual/physical nature of God in His state of existence before both angels and humans were brought into existence between Mormons and Orthodox believers.

I would again appeal to the words of Jesus here as He is the authority on the subject on the nature of being concerning the physical/spiritual relationship:

And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. (Luke 24:36-40)

The birth of the children of Adam and Eve (physical beings with a spirit), post the fall on the earth, is taught in the Bible (as we are born of our parents since then) are all born in sin and in need of redemption (It doesn’t teach as Mormonism does that Adam was born to heavenly parents as a spirit child or came to earth with Eve, one of his celestial wives).

Mormonism disputes the Biblical teaching and declares that it was a blessing, not a sin in the following statements from General Authorities concerning the, “Fall”:

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

Adam fell, but he fell in the right direction. . .toward the goal. . .he fell upward. (Sterling W. Sill)

The devil told the truth. . .I do not blame Mother Eve. I would not have had her miss eating the forbidden fruit for anything in the world. . . .They must pass through the same ordeal as the Gods, that they may know good from evil. . . .(Brigham Young)

The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise. . .I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. . . .We can hardly look upon anything resulting in such benefits as being a sin. . . . (Joseph Fielding Smith)

This is also reflected in a somewhat modern Mormon Sunday School lesson #3 entitled, “The Fall of Adam and Eve.” The following is stated (In a Note to the teacher):

Purpose To teach class members that the Fall of Adam and Eve allowed each of us to enter mortality

The decision of Adam and Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit was not a sin, as it is sometimes considered by other Christian Churches. It was a transgression—an act that was formally prohibited but not inherently wrong. (see Dallin Oaks, in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 98; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 73). The fall was necessary for us to progress toward exaltation. . . .(Preparing for Exaltation, Teacher’s Manual, 1998, p.13)

The Bible in fact teaches it was sin that brought death into the world and separation from God:

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:4-eight)

The orthodox view is that God is an uncreated spiritual being in essence, period. God didn’t become God, He always was:

Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.51)

Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (Psalm 90:1-2)

Jesus answered, . . . “HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD” (Mark 12:29)

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20)

I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (John 17:4-5)

The only exception of course to this is Jesus (part of the eternal Godhead of Father, Son, Holy Spirit), coming in the incarnation to rescue a fallen humanity by coming to die and pay for our sin from an eternal punishment in h***, not to makes us g(G)ods:

And the LORD God said unto the woman, what is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Genesis 3:13-15)

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (Luke 1:30-33)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. . . .And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-2, 14)

Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things. Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” (Luke 24:44-49)

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in h***. (Matthew 10:28)

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: . . .Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . .And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46)

The Bible declares that God is God and there are no other Gods but Him (even though it talks about the others who the pagan nations worship in their ignorance which are no gods at all):

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Romans 1:16-23)

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. (Isaiah 43:10-12)

So now you intend to resist the kingdom of the LORD through the sons of David, being a great multitude and having with you the golden calves which Jeroboam made for gods for you. “Have you not driven out the priests of the LORD, the sons of Aaron and the Levites, and made for yourselves priests like the peoples of other lands? Whoever comes to consecrate himself with a young bull and seven rams, even he may become a priest of what are no gods. (2 Chronicles 13:8-9)

However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those, which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? (Galatians 4:8-9)

Death is the separation of the spirit from the body in which the spirit of man returns to God Who gave it in the beginning to Adam (formed from the dust of the ground and breathed into life, the spirit in the image of God). God is Deity, we are not.

The way I arrive at the conclusion that we are in the spiritual image of God, while living in a physical, biological, life form is from the Bible. James’ statement (other verses I’ve quoted as well) here as part of the basis for reasoning this way:

For as the body without the spirit is dead, . . . (James 2:26a)

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

At the death of Jesus:

Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:28-30)

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:50-54)

[Bernard Gui]

To clarify further for you Bernard, the bottom line here is the different view of the spiritual/physical nature of God in His state of existence before both angels and humans were brought into existence between Mormons and Orthodox believers.

Your post is all over the place, and never answers the original question. I'm not asking you to

explain what Mormons believe, or what the differences are between Mormonism and evangelical

protestantism.

Could you state in your own words, not with cut-and-paste, exactly what you mean when you say

man is created after the image of God, spiritually. Just a paragraph would do.

Thanks in advance,

Bernard

[coolrok7]

Jesus’ statement, “for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” is descriptive of the distinct difference between the physical and spiritual as spirits don’t have flesh and bone (and blood in the case of one who has not died yet).

The, “body without the spirit is dead”, as James says is quite appropriate I think in understanding the difference. A spirit is not directly observable when it leaves the body in which the body looks like it is in sleep so to speak.

Most people would I think usually understand that it is their physical image being observed while standing in front of a mirror. A Spiritual image of us would not be seen or be observable as far as I know or can tell but we know the Bible affirms that it exists as a part of our being.

Biblically speaking then, when it comes to us understanding what it means to be in the image of God (spiritually speaking), I don’t think anyone could give an adequate explanation of what the spiritual image of God actually is (except that it is the non-material aspect of His existence).

Being created in His image means we have the communicable attributes which does not include Deity as that is the uncreated incommunicable state of His existence).

As recorded in the Bible, spirits can manifest in observable ways but I don’t think what is being seen is the actual spirit but a manifestation (or morph of it) in an observable form.

Likewise to be in God’s image spiritually speaking is not an observable phenomena. Unless God so chooses to manifest Himself in an observable way we wouldn’t necessarily know that He exists (like the burning bush with Moses or the spirit in the form of a dove observable to John the Baptist at Jesus’ baptism or any other example which can be cited)

Edited July 12, 2011 by coolrok7

[Vance]

. . . I don’t think anyone could give an adequate explanation of what the spiritual image of God actually is (except that it is the non-material aspect of His existence).

Other than just presuming this so called "non-material aspect", what Biblical evidence do you have that it is "non-material"?

[cksalmon]

The original theological significance of the notion, if we must have one, was that Adam was the image of God, thus precluding the need for idols (the sense of virtually all other uses of tselem). The author of this portion of Genesis was the priestly writer, who was directly concerned with the use of idols in worship. I don't find this a terribly significant theological point for modern readers of the Bible.

Even granting your interpretation (Adam is the image of God, need for idols thus precluded)--this seems to be a significant, and very theological, point. I don't know why modern readers of the Bible are supposed, on your view, to be uninterested.

[Storm Rider]

Jesus’ statement, “for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” is descriptive of the distinct difference between the physical and spiritual as spirits don’t have flesh and bone (and blood in the case of one who has not died yet).

The, “body without the spirit is dead”, as James says is quite appropriate I think in understanding the difference. A spirit is not directly observable when it leaves the body in which the body looks like it is in sleep so to speak.

Most people would I think usually understand that it is their physical image being observed while standing in front of a mirror. A Spiritual image of us would not be seen or be observable as far as I know or can tell but we know the Bible affirms that it exists as a part of our being.

Biblically speaking then, when it comes to us understanding what it means to be in the image of God (spiritually speaking), I don’t think anyone could give an adequate explanation of what the spiritual image of God actually is (except that it is the non-material aspect of His existence).

Being created in His image means we have the communicable attributes which does not include Deity as that is the uncreated incommunicable state of His existence).

As recorded in the Bible, spirits can manifest in observable ways but I don’t think what is being seen is the actual spirit but a manifestation (or morph of it) in an observable form.

Likewise to be in God’s image spiritually speaking is not an observable phenomena. Unless God so chooses to manifest Himself in an observable way we wouldn’t necessarily know that He exists (like the burning bush with Moses or the spirit in the form of a dove observable to John the Baptist at Jesus’ baptism or any other example which can be cited)

That is a awful lot of hoops in an attempt to simply explain Genesis: we are created in his impage. I tend to just take it at face value. God created Adam and Adam was in his image i.e. he looked like God. There is no clarification that it is a spiritual image or physical one. Adam looked like God. This is not difficult to undestand unless you are trying to force a very odd interpretation. Go back to your scripture you just quoted: Jesus, today, has a body of flesh and bone. That is the answer: God has a body of flesh and bone. The Bible does not support your position unless you stretch definitions so far that the Bible is meaningless and you have created a new doctrine out of whole cloth.

[coolrok7]

(the context for the question of this thread, based on a statement of mine where I was answering the question asked of an orthodox Christian for what kind of evidence would cause us to lose faith in Jesus which led to this line of questioning)

To answer the statements, at face value, I’m not assuming anything except for that Jesus was telling the truth and the truth was told about Him way before Joseph Smith and others came along.

Jesus said, “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (a post resurrection statement) which means spirits don’t have flesh and bone (or blood) which makes them not physical in the normal sense of the term as we use them:

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, and let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Hebrews 1:6-13)

It is specifically a Mormon teaching that “a God” with a Heavenly mother can only have spirit babies (taking that at face value). Mormonism would have us believe that Jesus’ human form is the product of the following relationship in a literal way, In the flesh:

of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father. (Articles of Faith, James Talmage, p.473)

“So far as the stages of eternal progression have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. . . .by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.” (A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency (Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, Charles W. Penrose) and the Twelve, “The Father and the Son,” Improvement Era, June 1916, p. 942)(Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Salt Lake City: Church Education System, 1976, 1992, p.131)

In Biblical teaching the Father doesn’t have a, “body of flesh and bone as tangible as mans” (which Joseph taught) in that Jesus said God is “a spirit” to the Samaritan woman at the well unless you would accuse Him of lying.

As of the creation of man (chapters 1&2 of Genesis), Jesus hadn’t become a man (prophesied in chapter 3) which means He was still spirit at the time as one of the Godhead in which later He could say:

I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (John 17:4-5)

He also didn’t become a God as part of “the plan”, He already was God:

Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.51)

I am directed by the Missionary Executive Committee to send you the enclosed copy of the standard missionary teaching plan, “A UNIFORM SYSTEM FOR TEACHING INVESTIGATORS” which is published by the Church and used by missionaries throughout the world.

The Committee is sending you this material now with the request that you begin studying and learning it immediately so that when you report to the Missionary Home in Salt Lake City you already will have memorized some or all the lessons.

Please bring this copy with you as it will form the basis for a number of discussions while in the missionary Home. When you report in, you will be advised where you may obtain an inexpensive cover for your copy of the plan. . . .(1961)

note- above it was recommended that the missionary was encouraged by sending the above mentioned teaching plan so they “will have memorized some or all the lessons.” They now are discouraged from memorizing the lesson and “teach by the spirit”

Jesus’ conception at the incarnation (not reincarnation) is different from ours in that He actually took on a literal human form the way we do (except that only He preexisted, not us, as a spirit being) but without any male activity involved in the normative human procreative process of sexual intercourse.

Hence the sinless, Virgin conception/birth of Jesus as the only begotten “(Son of) God” in the flesh (not the Father or Holy Spirit in that they remained as spirit in their nature of existence):

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:34-35)

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (Matthew 1:18-25)

We’re not born sinless, hence the need for a Savior in which Jesus came to be born to provide for our salvation (the only reason).

Jesus, James, John, and Paul (our being sons is by adoption after the fall):

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in h***. (Matthew 10:28)

For as the body without the spirit is dead, . . . (James 2:26a)

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:1-2)

But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (Galatians 4:4-5)

When Jesus returns at the Second Coming we will be like Him in a resurrected, glorified, human form which does not make us Deity:

And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:13-18)

The hidden mystery, according to Paul, has now been made known:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Corinthians 15:51-54)

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: . . .Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. (Ephesians 1:9-10, 15-23)

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, if ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. (Ephesians 3:1-12)

[Bernard Gui]

When Jesus returns at the Second Coming we will be like Him in a resurrected, glorified, human form which does not make us deity.

There is no reason to add your last 6 words to the scripture. I'm sorry, but after reading your very long posts, I still do not understand how man is created in the image of God spiritually. The explanation given in th LDS First Presidency quote is far more scriptural and reasonable. I don't believe it's as complicated as you try to make it. Can you condense your belief into a paragraph of your own words without reference to LDS beliefs?

Bernard

Bernard

[Storm Rider]

There is no reason to add your last 6 words to the scripture. I'm sorry, but after reading your very long posts, I still do not understand how man is created in the image of God spiritually. The explanation given in th LDS First Presidency quote is far more scriptural and reasonable. I don't believe it's as complicated as you try to make it. Can you condense your belief into a paragraph of your own words without reference to LDS beliefs?

Bernard

Bernard

If you go around your elbow you will eventually get to your thumb. True it is not direct, but it you need to get there, it will eventually work.

I always end up LOL when someone tries to say, "My interpretation and only my interpretation is the correct one". In daily language if I say my son is in my image and after my likeness you will know that he has a body of flesh and bone like me, that he looks similar to me, and that one can easily see he is my son. That works except for the Bible, then we have to go way around the elbow to explain away how it is impossible for Adam to reflect God in body, in likeness, and in image. Why make it so hard, just accept the Bible for what it says and make you docdrine reflect its teachings.

[Questing Beast]

...

Could someone please explain what it means that we are "in the image of God spiritually speaking?"

Thanks.

Bernard

I believe this. "Spiritually" means metaphysically. So we are metaphysically "in the image of God".

But to limit "God" to an anthropomorphic, "tangible" body is to believe in a puny concept for the "God of Creation". It reduces "God", the Necessary Cause Of Existence In The First Place, to a mere organizer; one eminent Intelligence among a myriad, that's all. And I can't worship such a being (not capitalized deliberately).

For any sapient creature, such as ourselves, to be "in the image of God", must mean that "our kind of thinking" is godlike. Imagination is godlike thinking going on. And the resulting Existence, if immortal (and it must be, since "God" is infinite and immortal), must be increasingly godlike as learning through experience shows the eternal nature of Joy and what causes us to feel it....

[coolrok7]

As I’ve already said, the Bible teaches that Adam was formed from the dust of the ground and then God breathed into him the breath of life which is the spiritual.

James says that the body without the spirit is dead. From that and many other references we can conclude that these two things, physical and spiritual, are what we are made of.

To repeat again, Jesus’ statement, “for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” is descriptive of the distinct difference between the physical and spiritual as spirits don’t have flesh and bone (and blood in the case of one who has not died yet).

To be in the image of God therefore is not the physical image we see in a mirror. But the spiritual image or attributes that make up God in His nature as spirit and gives us these communicable attributes (without being Deity) that are our spiritual makeup so to speak that are not physical.

[coolrok7]

coolrok7, on 16 July 2011 - 05:05 PM, said:

When Jesus returns at the Second Coming we will be like Him in a resurrected, glorified, human form which does not make us deity.

Bernard: There is no reason to add your last 6 words to the scripture

You asked me a question. I answered reasoning from the Bible (I didn’t add the words to the Bible) which is Scripture, the sixty-six canonical books:

As Latter-day Saints we accept the following scriptures as the standard works of the Church: the Bible (consisting of the Old Testament and the New Testament), the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and official statements made by our leaders. Regarding the Bible: There is a misconception that the Bible is one book instead of a collection of sixty-six books, thirty-nine of which comprise the Old Testament and twenty-seven of which constitute the New Testament. (The Ensign, Church magazine—contains official statements of leaders, Church Conference, Elder Henry D. Taylor, Nov. 1976, p.63)

I in part reasoned from this Old Testament reference among others (note the, “Before the mountains were brought forth” phrase. In other words, before creation He already was God, He didn’t become one as it is stated by Milton R. Hunter, a Mormon General Authority- the teaching is from Joseph Smith/Brigham Young, which is an addition to the Bible that it doesn’t teach):

Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (Psalm 90:1-2)

Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.51)

. . .God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, . . . (History of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr., April 1844, 6:305)

The Gospel of the Son of God that has been revealed is a plan or system of laws and ordinances, by strict obedience to which the people who inhabit this earth are assured that they may return again into the presence of the Father and the Son. (quoted in the pamphlet entitled, BRIGHAM YOUNG PROPHET STATESMAN PIONEER, 11/81; JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, 13:233, Brigham Young)

God is “a spirit” as quoted from Jesus, not flesh and bone “as tangible as mans” as these words came from Joseph Smith, not the Bible.

Jesus in becoming a man (His physicality) is what was acquired in the incarnation from the Virgin Mary’s womb, the same place we get our beginning from, but not His Deity as He already existed as God before becoming a man of flesh, blood, and bone.

[Anakin7]

You asked me a question. I answered reasoning from the Bible (I didn’t add the words to the Bible) which is Scripture, the sixty-six canonical books:

I in part reasoned from this Old Testament reference among others (note the, “Before the mountains were brought forth” phrase. In other words, before creation He already was God, He didn’t become one as it is stated by Milton R. Hunter, a Mormon General Authority- the teaching is from Joseph Smith/Brigham Young, which is an addition to the Bible that it doesn’t teach):

God is “a spirit” as quoted from Jesus, not flesh and bone “as tangible as mans” as these words came from Joseph Smith, not the Bible.

Jesus in becoming a man (His physicality) is what was acquired in the incarnation from the Virgin Mary’s womb, the same place we get our beginning from, but not His Deity as He already existed as God before becoming a man of flesh, blood, and bone.

Incorrect, from my understanding from the greek is that Jesus told the samaritain woman that "spirit God Is" adgectevical without the definate article. He is emphasizing an attribute of GOD -his "spirit" which we are supposed to worship him in spirit and truth.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited July 19, 2011 by Anakin7

[maklelan]

You asked me a question. I answered reasoning from the Bible (I didn’t add the words to the Bible) which is Scripture, the sixty-six canonical books:

I believe you did add words to the Bible. See below:

God is “a spirit” as quoted from Jesus, not flesh and bone “as tangible as mans” as these words came from Joseph Smith, not the Bible.

No, the Bible does not say "God is a spirit," the Bible says "God is spirit." There is no indefinite article in Greek, so you have to let the context determine if it is the adjectival or concrete sense of the term. There's no reason to conclude it is the concrete sense in John (he never uses the term that way; it's always "the Spirit" or the abstract "spirit"). I would also point you to John 3:6, which states "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The sense is indistinguishable from John 4:24. Those who are born of the Spirit are spirit. God is spirit. John 6:63 says even Jesus' words are spirit! Anyway, I would think those who are born of the spirit have flesh and bone, flatly undermining the notion that John 4:24 indicates God cannot have flesh and bone.

Edited July 18, 2011 by maklelan

[Anakin7]

I believe you did add words to the Bible. See below:

No, the Bible does not say "God is a spirit," the Bible says "God is spirit." There is no indefinite article in Greek, so you have to let the context determine if it is the adjectival or concrete sense of the term. There's no reason to conclude it is the concrete sense in John (he never uses the term that way; it's always "the Spirit" or the abstract "spirit"). I would also point you to John 3:6, which states "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The sense is indistinguishable from John 4:24. Those who are born of the Spirit are spirit. God is spirit. John 6:63 says even Jesus' words are spirit! Anyway, I would think those who are born of the spirit have flesh and bone, flatly undermining the notion that John 4:24 indicates God cannot have flesh and bone.

AWESOME !. In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[coolrok7]

Incorrect, from my understanding from the greek is that Jesus told the samaritain woman that "spirit God Is" adgectevical without the definate article. He is emphasizing an attribute of GOD -his "spirit" which we are supposed to worship him in spirit and truth.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDs JEDI KNIGHT

I believe you did add words to the Bible. See below:

coolrok7, on 17 July 2011 - 05:46 PM, said

:

God is “a spirit” as quoted from Jesus, not flesh and bone “as tangible as mans” as these words came from Joseph Smith, not the Bible.

No, the Bible does not say "God is a spirit," the Bible says "God is spirit." There is no indefinite article in Greek, so you have to let the context determine if it is the adjectival or concrete sense of the term. There's no reason to conclude it is the concrete sense in John (he never uses the term that way; it's always "the Spirit" or the abstract "spirit"). I would also point you to John 3:6, which states "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The sense is indistinguishable from John 4:24. Those who are born of the Spirit are spirit. God is spirit. John 6:63 says even Jesus' words are spirit! Anyway, I would think those who are born of the spirit have flesh and bone, flatly undermining the notion that John 4:24 indicates God cannot have flesh and bone.

This post has been edited by maklelan: 2 hours ago

For both Anakin7 and maklelan, I would have said God is spirit but I was quoting from the KJV which does say, “God is a spirit”. I wasn’t adding any words but attempting to stick to the translation recognized by Mormons as the acceptable one they use in their own setting for study:

“First Presidency Statement on the King James Version of the Bible,” Ensign, Aug. 1992, 80

Since the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has used the King James Version of the Bible for English-speaking members. . . .Many versions of the Bible are available today. Unfortunately, no original manuscripts of any portion of the Bible are available for comparison to determine the most accurate version. However, the Lord has revealed clearly the doctrines of the gospel in these latter-days. The most reliable way to measure the accuracy of any biblical passage is not by comparing different texts, but by comparison with the Book of Mormon and modern-day revelations. While other Bible versions may be easier to read than the King James Version, in doctrinal matters latter-day revelation supports the King James Version in preference to other English translations. All of the Presidents of the Church, beginning with the Prophet Joseph Smith, have supported the King James Version by encouraging its continued use in the Church. In light of all the above, it is the English language Bible used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I would point out that it is Joseph Smith adding to the (KJV) Bible in the sense of understanding what is not there but is in Mormon doctrine which is what my point all along has been.

Your point mak about undermining what I said is I think not true based on what Jesus said about spirits of which God (even Jesus before the incarnation) is in His nature (specifically the Father/Holy Spirit part of the Godhead as they are specifically not the same person as we are accused of teaching by both Mormons and Witnesses):

Elder: . . .BUT WHAT DO WE LEARN ABOUT GOD FROM THE EXPERIENCE OF JOSEPH SMITH?

Brown: That he has a real body.

Elder: Yes, he does. THE CHURCHES ALSO TAUGHT THAT GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS CHRIST, HIS SON, WERE BOTH THE SAME PERSON. . . . (A UNIFORM SYSTEM FOR TEACHING INVESTIGATORS, Aug. 1961, p.12)

The Oneness of the Father and the Son: There has been much misunderstanding regarding the oft-repeated statement that Jesus and his Father are one. A careful reading of the seventeenth chapter of John should clarify this matter fully. As Jesus was about to be offered up, he prayed unto his Father and thanked him for his apostles, saying, “that they may be one, as we are.” (John 17:11). . .Now it is very apparent that Jesus was not speaking of oneness of personage, but oneness of purpose, . . .(John 17:24). . .Again it is evident that the oneness referred to has no reference to oneness of personage, for if Jesus and his Father were one in person, how absurd to think that Jesus would pray unto himself, . . . (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.22)

If Jesus were the Almighty God, he would not have prayed to himself, would he? Since Jesus prayed to God, . . .the two could not be the same person (You can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p.39)

We actually teach that the three persons of the Godhead in Matthew 28 are the "GOD IS ONE LORD”, Jesus refers to in Mark:

Jesus answered, . . ."HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD" (Mark 12:29)

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Mormons of course can believe as they see fit, but it’s when I’m falsely accused (or misunderstood of what I actually believe) of things that I in a Biblical way object to (the same would go for them if they are falsely accused).

Human beings are of course flesh, blood, and bone. When it comes to the Godhead, only Jesus partook of flesh, blood, and bone as well as the book of Hebrews which relates the following:

And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:13-18)