Discerning Spirits

[Bob Crockett]

Exactly how reliable is David Whitmer on this point since this address was written 50 years after the events and to prove that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet?

The cited statement is not like his others where, in admissions against his interest, he admits to the plates and the angel.

[Palerider]

Exactly how reliable is David Whitmer on this point since this address was written 50 years after the events and to prove that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet?

The cited statement is not like his others where, in admissions against his interest, he admits to the plates and the angel.

I'm not sure one can have it both ways. If his testimony is impuned in one case, I think it must be questioned in all. Or at a minimum we are left not knowing what he said that was true and what he said that was false.

[LDSToronto]

Exactly how reliable is David Whitmer on this point since this address was written 50 years after the events and to prove that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet?

The cited statement is not like his others where, in admissions against his interest, he admits to the plates and the angel.

I don't know - how reliable was he? Does time diminish the truth of a statement? If so, there are some interesting quotes from Brigham Young, Lucy Smith, Wilford Woodruff, etc that we should re-examine...

H.

[LeSellers]

I'm not sure one can have it both ways. If his testimony is impuned in one case, I think it must be questioned in all. Or at a minimum we are left not knowing what he said that was true and what he said that was false.

When he says things that work against his own interests, we can be very sure he is giving us the truth. When he is telling us things that make him look good (as this "revelation" does), we are then left to wonder if he is being wholly accurate in his portrayal.

There is no contemporaneous account of this "revelation", and there is nothing in any of Joseph's own records (diaries, journals, or other writings) that even hints of such a statement, and certainly nothing that he, Joseph, held out as "revelation". No one else, not Hyrum, not Oliver, not those who actually went to Toronto, gave the first hair of a tiny indication of any thing like what David Whitmer claimed a half century later, in his own interest.

I love Brother Whitmer and his undeniable testimony of the coming forth of the book of Mormon. But his falling out with Joseph, his erroneous claim of Joseph's being a fallen prophet, marked the limit of his credibility. He allowed personal beliefs to dam him in his progression. He said He didn't leave the Church, but that the Church left him. He spoke true: she went on to bigger and greater things, and he remained in Missouri, a footnote in history.

Lehi

[inquiringmind]

I’m treating your OP as relating to discerning of spirits being discerning the children of God and their disposition (as opposed to principles and doctrines such as Alma 32 and D&C 50 describe). These spirits can have bodies like we do, or not.

See http://lds.org/scrip...nt=dc-testament

These scriptures show that:

The discerning of spirits is a gift of the Spirit (also see Moses 1:15).

It is one of the keys a bishop holds.

We can ask for and receive spiritual gifts, including this one (also see D&C 46:29-33).

It is related to discerning between the righteous and the wicked for the purpose of gathering and protecting the saints.The Holy Ghost is a Spirit of course, and he is discerned by those with eyes to see by the Light of Christ, leading to a witness or a testimony by the power of the Holy Spirit. This type of discernment has to do with the teachings in D&C 93 and 84:43-53.

The discerning of spirits is also mentioned in Hebrews 14:12 and 5:14. The word of God can pierce the thoughts and intents of the heart, and in this way we can discern our own spirit. Also, spiritual senses can be exercised, which would enable one to recognize good and evil in general, and spirits specifically as occasion requires. At the end of Malachi 3, it is given to some to participate in the final judgment and thus discern the spirits.

For this reason we have the advanced technique described in D&C 129 for those who actually have occasion to use this information.

I think the ease or difficulty of discernment is largely a function of the observer.

Doctrine and Covenants 129 was interesting.

Thank you.

[LDSToronto]

I love Brother Whitmer and his undeniable testimony of the coming forth of the book of Mormon. But his falling out with Joseph, his erroneous claim of Joseph's being a fallen prophet, marked the limit of his credibility. He allowed personal beliefs to dam him in his progression. He said He didn't leave the Church, but that the Church left him. He spoke true: she went on to bigger and greater things, and he remained in Missouri, a footnote in history.

Sorry - all of those things do not mean that Whitmer lied. There is a mountain of historical evidence that casts doubt on Joseph's prophetic call, it's origin, and it's validity.

H.

[Palerider]

I've read them both, and they are not what you make them out to be. In all the hundreds of books I have at my finger tips, not a one cites a reliable source for either "instance", and none gives the context.

Only BH Roberts uses it (the alleged quote) even secondarily.

Lehi

Here is B.H. Roberts reference from History of the church:

"May this Toronto incident and the Prophet’s explanation be accepted and faith still be maintained in him as an inspired man, a Prophet of God? I answer unhesitatingly in the affirmative. The revelation respecting the Toronto journey was not of God, surely; else it would not have failed; but the Prophet, over-wrought in his deep anxiety for the progress of the work, saw reflected in the ‘Seer Stone’ his own thought, or that suggested to him by his brother Hyrum, rather than the thought of God...in this instance of the Toronto journey, Joseph was evidently not directed by the inspiration of the Lord." A Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol. 1, p. 165.

Has any church leader that you know of challenged the veracity of Roberts including this for what it is in the history of the church? Have the leadership made any efforts to retract or edit this as unreliable as far as Joseph recieving a revelation that was not from God?

Edited July 4, 2011 by Palerider

[Nathair/|\]

Sorry - all of those things do not mean that Whitmer lied. There is a mountain of historical evidence that casts doubt on Joseph's prophetic call, it's origin, and it's validity.

H.

And a universe of evidence confirming said prophetic call.

[Calm]

Sorry - all of those things do not mean that Whitmer lied.

H.

Whether or not Brother Whitmer lied, remembered incorrectly or told the truth in that specific instance, in areas that we have other information from other sources, he was incorrect in some of those things he recalled:

http://en.fairmormon..._sell_copyright

I would think this would lead to caution in accepting without question a recollection that contradicts other sayings of the prophets.

The primary evidence supporting the negative aspects of the Canadian Mission story come from David Whitmer, who was not a participant in the event, and who had left the church many years before. With the discovery of the Hiram Page letter of 1848 showing that the actual participants involved in the trip felt that Joseph Smith delivered an accurate revelation of what would transpire on the Mission, and in fact even found the event uplifting rather than negative, it is evident that no individual contemporary to the event felt that this represented a false prophecy by Joseph Smith. What we do see is excellent evidence in fulfillment of the teachings of Deuteronomy 12 and 18 that Joseph Smith was perceived as a true prophet of God by those involved in the Mission to Canada in early 1830.

Brother Whitmer's claim does not make sense in context of a true revelation in my opinion. Edited July 4, 2011 by calmoriah

[HeatherAnn]

I'd like as many LDS scripture references (book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price) as possible on how we discern whether a spirit is from God.

Hi Inquiringmind,

First off... We're given a brain to use & a spiritual intuition to sense - when used in combination, we can not only discern but also do great things!

Jesus & Joesph Smith taught that the "kingdom of God is within you" & we each may receive personal revelation.

We are taught to know who we are... children of God, spiritual beings having a priceless, yet imperfect, human experience.

What we discern, we relate to because a part of us resonates with it.

When we fear, we resonate with that which we fear.

When we love, we resonate with that which we love.

=

Some notes from my scripture study...

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, & broad is the way,that leadeth to destruction, & many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, & narrow isthe way, which leadeth unto life, & few there be that find it.” -Matt 7:13-14

*What a fine line we walk – between illusional crutches that spark spiritual feelings within & the courageous exploration of truth! - Between carnal imaginative passions and spiritually enhancing motivation. How easy it is to go along with what everyone else is saying…how broad & well worn that path is! What a challenge it is to have the faith & initiative to carve ourown path, even when others are unsupportive or even opposing! How lonely, sometimes.

“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I knoweven as also I am known.”-1Cor 13:12

*This life is atest in which we walk by faith…but eventually, we will see clearly.

Discerning the middle way, balance & harmony...

“WhenI was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as achild: but when I became a man, I putaway childish things.”-1Cor 13:11

AND

“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.” -Mark 10:15

=

LDS Quotes:

"There is no true religion without true science, & consequently there is no true science without true religion." BY

"We cannot be saved until we have risen above all enemies, not the least of which is ignorance." - Joseph Smith

"It is not always the words we use in prayer that count so much as the spirit in which they are said," -Eldred G. Smith

"An egotist will never get anywhere in this world because he thinks he's already there." - MJ Ashton

"Reverence is profound respect mingled with love." -DO McKay

"No other success can compensate for failure in the home. -DO McKay

"People cannot change truth, but truth can change people." - John H. Vandenberg

Edited July 4, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Hughes]

When he says things that work against his own interests, we can be very sure he is giving us the truth. When he is telling us things that make him look good (as this "revelation" does), we are then left to wonder if he is being wholly accurate in his portrayal.

This is how I view Joseph Smith as well. I use the same test that you are applying to another man. As HeatherAnn just said, we are given a brain to use.

[inquiringmind]

Who is B.H. Roberts?

[David T]

Here is B.H. Roberts reference from History of the church:

"May this Toronto incident and the Prophet’s explanation be accepted and faith still be maintained in him as an inspired man, a Prophet of God? I answer unhesitatingly in the affirmative. The revelation respecting the Toronto journey was not of God, surely; else it would not have failed; but the Prophet, over-wrought in his deep anxiety for the progress of the work, saw reflected in the ‘Seer Stone’ his own thought, or that suggested to him by his brother Hyrum, rather than the thought of God...in this instance of the Toronto journey, Joseph was evidently not directed by the inspiration of the Lord." A Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol. 1, p. 165.

Has any church leader that you know of challenged the veracity of Roberts including this for what it is in the history of the church? Have the leadership made any efforts to retract or edit this as unreliable as far as Joseph recieving a revelation that was not from God?

Marlin Jensen did in this Ensign article on Joseph Smith Papers: Manuscript Revelation Books:

Although we still do not know the whole story, particularly Joseph Smith’s own view of the situation, we do know that calling the divine communication a “failed revelation” is not warranted. The Lord’s directive clearly conditions the successful sale of the copyright on the worthiness of those seeking to make the sale as well as on the spiritual receptivity of the potential purchasers.

[David T]

Duplicate

Edited July 9, 2011 by nackhadlow

[LeSellers]

Who is B.H. Roberts?

Brigham Henry Roberts was a General Authority (one of the Seven Presidents of the Seventy) in the late XIX through early XX.

Generally acknowledged as a scholar and historian.

Taught school.

Politician.

Author of many books, including one, The Truth, The Way, The Life, that advanced an LDS perspective on evolution as a means by which God populated the Earth.

That'll do for starters.

Lehi

[alter idem]

Who is B.H. Roberts?

Lehi gave a good outline of who he was, but I wanted to add for any others, especially LDS who aren't familiar with him, there's a great book called "The Autobiography of B.H. Roberts" (I think the original was called the 'Life' of BH Roberts for those who might have access to old church books) which is fascinating--It's a classic.

http://www.amazon.com/Autobiography-B-H-Roberts-James-Bergera/dp/1560850051/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310223552&sr=1-1

[David T]

You can also read his diary.