Why I Know

[Hughes]

That's true.

Wait, what? I thought it was Jesus, and not you?

I never said I determine who follows the Spirit. My point is that no church does either, only Christ. No contradiction.

Impossible for an honest truth seeker who has faith in the Lord to not receive an answer that the Book of Mormon is true.

Impossible?

I guess I'm either not honest or a truth seeker. If it works for you to accuse me falsely, then I'll just count my blessings.

Like I said. I guess I'll just continue to bask in the lords presence and power and thank him for his grace every moment of everyday.

You have a right to express an opinion, Hughes, but in doing so, you ought not utter falsehoods. It's a violation of the ninth commandment, the one that forbids bearing false witness. If you reverence Christ as you say you do, you will try to obey his commandments.

For Latter-day Saints, Christ is the focus of their faith and their Church. They honor Joseph Smith as a servant of Christ, just as they honor Moses, Abraham and other ancient prophets and Peter, James and John and others of the apostles.

Yeah... right. The focus is on Christ, yet don't disagree that JS is a prophet! By the way, Moses and all the other prophets focused on God/Christ, not themselves.

Jesus Christ did. Joesph Smith just answered his calling. Someone else would have been chosen to fulfill the work of restoring the Church if Joeseph Smith chose not to answer the call.

Do you think if Moses was unworthy or chose not to answer his calling the Lord would have just left those Israelites in Egypt?

You haven't answered my CFR.

It's your opinion that someone else would have done the "work of restoring." No one can prove or disprove that. I happen to disagree that any restoration was done in the first place.

The fact that the LDS church is founded on the teachings of Joseph Smith is what you think needs a Reference?

Prove that it came from Jesus?

Edited June 20, 2011 by Hughes

[Deborah]

Yeah... right. The focus is on Christ, yet don't disagree that JS is a prophet! By the way, Moses and all the other prophets focused on God/Christ.

The point you keep missing because you don't want to see it is that Joseph Smith also focused on God/Christ. It is impossible to miss that in studying his life unless you are obtuse and refuse to see it.

The fact that the LDS church is founded on the teachings of Joseph Smith is what you think needs a Reference?

NO! The LDS church is focused on Jesus Christ. Joseph was just his prophet and spokesperson as were Abraham, Moses, Peter and any of the other prophets of old. The proof is in the doctrine and scriptures he gave us which are centered in Christ.

Please quit stating what our beliefs are when we keep telling you otherwise.

[Calm]

Interesting that Hughes skipped zerinus' post that pointed out that logically with the POV Hughes expressed in his post about God protecting his Church that he (Hughes) should belong to the Catholic faith rather that a denomination that has its roots in the 15th century.

[Hughes]

I am sure God loves all people, including those of other faiths and religions (including non-Christians); and will do the best He can for them. But he established one true Church, not many; and He ordained salvation through that one Church only. When that Church went into apostasy it need to be restored, and that restoration took place through Joseph Smith. If you reject that one true Church that He has restored, you cannot be saved.

I think you are confusing us with Evangelicals with their “mega churches” which cost millions of dollars to build, and are there to impress people and make money for their owners.

I think it is very compelling.

I don’t believe you. If Jesus was so important to you, you would have taken His words seriously:

Matthew 10

:

40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Luke 10

:

16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

John 13

:

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Wrong on every account:

Hebrews 5

:

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

If you genuinely believed that, you should be a Catholic. Why aren’t you?

The Power of God is manifest in the restoration of His true Church in the last days; as He has done throughout the history of the world. If you were a true believer in Christ, you would rejoice at the restoration of His true Church in the last days, and would want to be a part of it; not try to oppose it.

Your claims that the church Christ established went to apostasy and was restored by JS is false according to anyone not LDS or a follower of JS.

Those who run mega churches to impress other are no better than those who build temples to be lit 24/7. The large churches I've been to don't seem to fit that bill though.

I do take Jesus' words very seriously. I don't believe that JS was a follower of Christ, nor do I believe he heard from the Spirit. As he says, much in the Bible doesn't agree with the spirit he was listening to.

Why aren't I Catholic? Simply because I don't agree with some of their practices and doctrine. Like I said, it matters not what church organization you belong to. Jesus didn't establish a church organization. He established his church. And if people strayed, they strayed from him, not an organization run by man. Christ is the head of the church. There is no one organization on the Earth such as the LDS church, that is the "true" church, because it's Christ's church not man's.

I don't oppose Christ, I rejoice in him every day. I do oppose false teachings and false doctrine.

The point you keep missing because you don't want to see it is that Joseph Smith also focused on God/Christ. It is impossible to miss that in studying his life unless you are obtuse and refuse to see it.

NO! The LDS church is focused on Jesus Christ. Joseph was just his prophet and spokesperson as were Abraham, Moses, Peter and any of the other prophets of old. The proof is in the doctrine and scriptures he gave us which are centered in Christ.

Please quit stating what our beliefs are when we keep telling you otherwise.

With all due respect, when I study the life of Joseph Smith and his actions and the actions of his followers, I see a narcissistic man stuck on himself and things that make him look good. Having dealt directly with a narcissist it just jumps out at me plain as day. So, no. It has nothing to do with what I want to see or not. I'm open to all truth no matter it's source. But, one thing that has always troubled me is the glaring problem of where the plates are. A guy who is trying to cover something up would make up a story about angles taking them back, but a guy who is completely open and honest about his sources, won't be making up elaborate stories as it appears *to me* that JS did.

If the doctrines of the LDS church were focused on Christ then they wouldn't disagree with the doctrines of the historical church.

I'm so sorry if you think that i'm misstating what you believe. I've been around this bush many times, and in almost every part of the Bible JS has reinterpreted the scripture to fit his view, and this view is the LDS view is it not?

Interesting that Hughes skipped zerinus' post that pointed out that logically with the POV Hughes expressed in his post about God protecting his Church that he (Hughes) should belong to the Catholic faith rather that a denomination that has its roots in the 15th century.

Sorry I missed it. Hopefully my position is more clear that it doesn't matter what church you belong to as long as you belong to Christ.

[Deborah]

But, one thing that has always troubled me is the glaring problem of where the plates are. A guy who is trying to cover something up would make up a story about angles taking them back, but a guy who is completely open and honest about his sources, won't be making up elaborate stories as it appears *to me* that JS did.

Even if it's true? It may "appear" to you, but there were 11 official witnesses to the plates. Given that the angels have appeared throughout scripture I'm surprised that someone who purports to believe in the Bible would deny such a thing could happen.

If the doctrines of the LDS church were focused on Christ then they wouldn't disagree with the doctrines of the historical church.

The historical church included things such as Priesthood, Prophets and Apostles, baptism for the dead, temples, etc. So the the teachings of the LDS church are very much in line with the "historical" church, the one in the Bible. All these things are further rational proof of the truth claims of the church. If you are talking history after the Bible than you must admit there was a loss of knowledge and Apostasy as the church after that did not conform to what is Biblical.

Hopefully my position is more clear that it doesn't matter what church you belong to as long as you belong to Christ.

Unless you are LDS and belong to Christ, that is.

[shalamabobbi]

Hopefully my position is more clear that it doesn't matter what church you belong to as long as you belong to Christ.

lol..

Apparently Peter received keys to the outhouse..

Mathew 16:19

[Calm]

Sorry I missed it. Hopefully my position is more clear that it doesn't matter what church you belong to as long as you belong to Christ.

So then if LDS tell you they belong to Christ, then you'll no longer have any problem with our faith and leave us be?

[Franktalk]

Sorry I missed it. Hopefully my position is more clear that it doesn't matter what church you belong to as long as you belong to Christ.

So your position is that all Christian churches (not the LDS) have members that belong to Christ? It must be your position because you refuse to discuss what church you belong to. So I must conclude that you could just as easily sit in a Baptist church one Sunday and the next Sunday sit in a Lutheran church. Then to round out the month you could attend a Catholic church and a Methodist on the same day. Now I have to ask how you deal with the issue that each of them thinks they are the true church and the others are wrong?

Do you have your kids baptized as infants in the Catholic church and then do it again when they have gone through Bible school when they are older? Do you do the immersion or do you sprinkle water on the head? Maybe you just baptize yourself like John Smyth did in 1609. I mean it does not matter does it since you think that all churches are Christian except the LDS. But then I read this:

"The parents are expected to pledge themselves as teachers of their child in the teachings and practices of the Church."

http://www.stcecilia.com/sacraments/baptism.php

So how can you pledge in one church and then go to some other church? I am curious how you deal with the obvious conflicts. Or maybe you are just one of those people who make pledges and never intend to keep them. That would answer many of my questions.

Your position does not match the reality of the various churches that are not LDS. So if your position is nonsense why would anyone care about your opinions on anything.

[Hughes]

Even if it's true? It may "appear" to you, but there were 11 official witnesses to the plates. Given that the angels have appeared throughout scripture I'm surprised that someone who purports to believe in the Bible would deny such a thing could happen.

The historical church included things such as Priesthood, Prophets and Apostles, baptism for the dead, temples, etc. So the the teachings of the LDS church are very much in line with the "historical" church, the one in the Bible. All these things are further rational proof of the truth claims of the church. If you are talking history after the Bible than you must admit there was a loss of knowledge and Apostasy as the church after that did not conform to what is Biblical.

Unless you are LDS and belong to Christ, that is.

I do believe in angels, but I don't know of one example of angels needing plates or anything of humans ever. So, it's not a matter of "could" it happen, but the probability of it happening. And given the unusual nature, there should also follow an equal amount of hard evidence, ie the plates (in my opinion).

The historical church never built temples, or baptized the dead. I agree with you that the Roman Catholic church became corrupted and a much needed reformation happened. I don't agree that the biblical text was corrupted, nor do I agree that Joseph Smith restored anything.

lol..

Apparently Peter received keys to the outhouse..

Mathew 16:19

Peter's faith was in Christ however, not man, so the church isn't run by man but God himself. As Jesus said, "I will build my church..."

So then if LDS tell you they belong to Christ, then you'll no longer have any problem with our faith and leave us be?

Hey if it works for you great!

So your position is that all Christian churches (not the LDS) have members that belong to Christ? It must be your position because you refuse to discuss what church you belong to. So I must conclude that you could just as easily sit in a Baptist church one Sunday and the next Sunday sit in a Lutheran church. Then to round out the month you could attend a Catholic church and a Methodist on the same day. Now I have to ask how you deal with the issue that each of them thinks they are the true church and the others are wrong?

Do you have your kids baptized as infants in the Catholic church and then do it again when they have gone through Bible school when they are older? Do you do the immersion or do you sprinkle water on the head? Maybe you just baptize yourself like John Smyth did in 1609. I mean it does not matter does it since you think that all churches are Christian except the LDS. But then I read this:

"The parents are expected to pledge themselves as teachers of their child in the teachings and practices of the Church."

http://www.stcecilia.com/sacraments/baptism.php

So how can you pledge in one church and then go to some other church? I am curious how you deal with the obvious conflicts. Or maybe you are just one of those people who make pledges and never intend to keep them. That would answer many of my questions.

Your position does not match the reality of the various churches that are not LDS. So if your position is nonsense why would anyone care about your opinions on anything.

There very well could be followers of Christ in the LDS church. I'm not saying there couldn't be. I'm simply saying that the LDS church's main focus is Joseph Smith and his teachings. Who's on the top of the temple? Not Christ.

As for exclusive claims. I only know of the Catholic church as excommunicating folks and claiming exclusivity as the LDS does.

If you must know, I attend two different churches at this time, and have attended numerous evangelical churches in my past. I enjoy fellowship with all believers.

No one should care what my opinion is. What people should do is check what anyone says against the word of God, as the Berean Jews did.

[rodheadlee]

It's your opinion that someone else would have done the "work of restoring." No one can prove or disprove that. I happen to disagree that any restoration was done in the first place.

The fact that the LDS church is founded on the teachings of Joseph Smith is what you think needs a Reference?

Prove that it came from Jesus?

D&C 1:

1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; yea, verily I say: Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.

2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

3 And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

4 And the avoice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.

5 And they shall ago forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.

D&C 12:

A great and marvelous work is about to come forth among the children of men.

2 Behold, I am God; give heed to my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow; therefore, give heed unto my word.

3 Behold, the field is awhite already to harvest; therefore, whoso desireth to reap let him thrust in his sickle with his might, and reap while the day lasts, that he may treasure up for his soul everlasting salvation in the kingdom of God.

D&C 19:

1 I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world.

2 I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

That would be frequent references. You said that the Church would not exist without Joseph Smith. I say God, Jesus Christ, my Heavenly Father are powerful and wise enough to get their word out no matter who the prophet is.

[Franktalk]

There very well could be followers of Christ in the LDS church. I'm not saying there couldn't be. I'm simply saying that the LDS church's main focus is Joseph Smith and his teachings. Who's on the top of the temple? Not Christ.

As for exclusive claims. I only know of the Catholic church as excommunicating folks and claiming exclusivity as the LDS does.

If you must know, I attend two different churches at this time, and have attended numerous evangelical churches in my past. I enjoy fellowship with all believers.

No one should care what my opinion is. What people should do is check what anyone says against the word of God, as the Berean Jews did.

Christ is alive and not dead. Why would the Church place a symbol of death on top of the roof? Scripture does not describe Christ as dead.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The gospel is the good Word I would think a symbol which shows an announcement of the good Word would be way more appropriate than a symbol of death. And what is this fixation you have with Joseph Smith, you act like we pray to him. Just look at this prayer and see if you can find his name.

Hail Mary, full of grace.

Our Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou among women,

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,

Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,

pray for us sinners,

now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

Okay, this is from the Catholic church and contains Mary twice and Jesus once and the Father zero times. But wait a minute. Did not Jesus tell us how to pray?

Our Father, who art in heaven,

hallowed be thy name.

Thy Kingdom come,

thy will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our trespasses,

as we forgive those who trespass against us.

And lead us not into temptation,

but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen

I am new to the LDS Church so I have only heard a thousand prayers or so but all of them start with addressing the Father and close by saying "in the name Jesus" or something similar. So of the two prayers which one is more Biblical? Obviously the one in the Bible is more Biblical. Not once have I heard the name Joseph Smith in a prayer. But I have heard many witness that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God. I have heard in a prayer that someone is grateful for the Prophet Joseph Smith but I have never heard anyone pray to Joseph Smith or say we pray in his name. Why would we, he is just a man.

And as for a church declaring them self the only true church. Maybe we should use burning at the stake as a measure.

Catholics - Yep many burned at the stake

Protestants - Yep many burned at the stake

LDS - Not so much

If you wish to discuss the apostate church feel free. We can contrast the LDS against the history of the fallen church. Just more reasons why the LDS feel "Why I know"

[Deborah]

The historical church never built temples, or baptized the dead.

Huh. Yet the NT talks of the temple quite a bit and Christ himself visited it and the Apostles continued after Christ's death. Baptism for the dead is not only mentioned by Paul but actually took place for many years after the Apostles were all killed. Per Jeff Lindsey's website baptisms for the dead:

...modern evidence for baptism for the dead in ancient times is now so strong that a relatively new translation of the Bible, the New English Bible (published by a group of English and Scottish churches with absolutely NO LDS ties) has a footnote for 1 Cor. 15:29 saying something to the effect that modern evidence shows that some early Christians did practice proxy baptism on behalf of those who had died without baptism.

I agree with you that the Roman Catholic church became corrupted and a much needed reformation happened. I don't agree that the biblical text was corrupted

So the church became corrupted but those who were part of the corrupted church and made the KJV translation didn't insert any of their misunderstandings into the translation? We by the way don't claim the Bible is corrupted only that some things may not have been translated correctly or left out because of the limited understanding of men.

I'm simply saying that the LDS church's main focus is Joseph Smith and his teachings. Who's on the top of the temple? Not Christ.

I have been a member of the LDS church for nearly 50 years and it has always been and still is Christ centered. I demand that you stop repeating your lie.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The historical church never built temples,

Uh, earth to Hughes, they did indeed build temples. Remember Jesus chasing the money changers from the Temple.

Why does your church not have a temple?

or baptized the dead.

Sorry, you are simply wrong here.

Who's on the top of the temple? Not Christ.

Tell us, Hughes, who is on top of the temple and what is does he signify?

[zerinus]

Your claims that the church Christ established went to apostasy and was restored by JS is false according to anyone not LDS or a follower of JS.

Those who run mega churches to impress other are no better than those who build temples to be lit 24/7. The large churches I've been to don't seem to fit that bill though.

I do take Jesus' words very seriously. I don't believe that JS was a follower of Christ, nor do I believe he heard from the Spirit. As he says, much in the Bible doesn't agree with the spirit he was listening to.

Why aren't I Catholic? Simply because I don't agree with some of their practices and doctrine. Like I said, it matters not what church organization you belong to. Jesus didn't establish a church organization. He established his church. And if people strayed, they strayed from him, not an organization run by man. Christ is the head of the church. There is no one organization on the Earth such as the LDS church, that is the "true" church, because it's Christ's church not man's.

I don't oppose Christ, I rejoice in him every day. I do oppose false teachings and false doctrine.

With all due respect, when I study the life of Joseph Smith and his actions and the actions of his followers, I see a narcissistic man stuck on himself and things that make him look good. Having dealt directly with a narcissist it just jumps out at me plain as day. So, no. It has nothing to do with what I want to see or not. I'm open to all truth no matter it's source. But, one thing that has always troubled me is the glaring problem of where the plates are. A guy who is trying to cover something up would make up a story about angles taking them back, but a guy who is completely open and honest about his sources, won't be making up elaborate stories as it appears *to me* that JS did.

If the doctrines of the LDS church were focused on Christ then they wouldn't disagree with the doctrines of the historical church.

I'm so sorry if you think that i'm misstating what you believe. I've been around this bush many times, and in almost every part of the Bible JS has reinterpreted the scripture to fit his view, and this view is the LDS view is it not?

Sorry I missed it. Hopefully my position is more clear that it doesn't matter what church you belong to as long as you belong to Christ.

Mormonism is true. The Book of Mormon is scripture. Joseph Smith was a prophet. He restored God's only true Church on earth. There is no salvation outside of God's only true Church. If you reject his testimony and the Church he established, you cannot be saved.

[Kevin Christensen]

Among the many reasons that I accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of the Lord Jesus Christ is that he said things like this:

If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship in their midst; and they will do it before the millennium can be ushered in and Christ takes possession of His kingdom.2

And this:

But while one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of man, causes "His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, "according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil," or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, "not according to what they have not, but according to what they have," those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will by judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right.1

And of course, because he uniquely measures up to the Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets.

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/prophettestsfv5.pdf

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Hughes]

D&C 1:

1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; yea, verily I say: Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.

2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

3 And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

4 And the avoice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.

5 And they shall ago forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.

D&C 12:

A great and marvelous work is about to come forth among the children of men.

2 Behold, I am God; give heed to my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow; therefore, give heed unto my word.

3 Behold, the field is awhite already to harvest; therefore, whoso desireth to reap let him thrust in his sickle with his might, and reap while the day lasts, that he may treasure up for his soul everlasting salvation in the kingdom of God.

D&C 19:

1 I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world.

2 I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

That would be frequent references. You said that the Church would not exist without Joseph Smith. I say God, Jesus Christ, my Heavenly Father are powerful and wise enough to get their word out no matter who the prophet is.

Yet, you don't think your god is powerful enough to protect his word from mistranslations?

Your quoting the D&C doesn't prove anything. Many people in history have claimed themselves to be prophets and to speak for god.

Christ is alive and not dead. Why would the Church place a symbol of death on top of the roof? Scripture does not describe Christ as dead.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The gospel is the good Word I would think a symbol which shows an announcement of the good Word would be way more appropriate than a symbol of death. And what is this fixation you have with Joseph Smith, you act like we pray to him. Just look at this prayer and see if you can find his name.

Hail Mary, full of grace.

Our Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou among women,

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,

Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,

pray for us sinners,

now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

Okay, this is from the Catholic church and contains Mary twice and Jesus once and the Father zero times. But wait a minute. Did not Jesus tell us how to pray?

Our Father, who art in heaven,

hallowed be thy name.

Thy Kingdom come,

thy will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our trespasses,

as we forgive those who trespass against us.

And lead us not into temptation,

but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen

I am new to the LDS Church so I have only heard a thousand prayers or so but all of them start with addressing the Father and close by saying "in the name Jesus" or something similar. So of the two prayers which one is more Biblical? Obviously the one in the Bible is more Biblical. Not once have I heard the name Joseph Smith in a prayer. But I have heard many witness that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God. I have heard in a prayer that someone is grateful for the Prophet Joseph Smith but I have never heard anyone pray to Joseph Smith or say we pray in his name. Why would we, he is just a man.

And as for a church declaring them self the only true church. Maybe we should use burning at the stake as a measure.

Catholics - Yep many burned at the stake

Protestants - Yep many burned at the stake

LDS - Not so much

If you wish to discuss the apostate church feel free. We can contrast the LDS against the history of the fallen church. Just more reasons why the LDS feel "Why I know"

Not sure what your point is. I never stated that Christ was dead. And it seems you don't like the Catholics praying to Mary, and I can't defend that.

The church never fell, as Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, and the head of his church. So no, it didn't fall.

Huh. Yet the NT talks of the temple quite a bit and Christ himself visited it and the Apostles continued after Christ's death. Baptism for the dead is not only mentioned by Paul but actually took place for many years after the Apostles were all killed. Per Jeff Lindsey's website baptisms for the dead:

So the church became corrupted but those who were part of the corrupted church and made the KJV translation didn't insert any of their misunderstandings into the translation? We by the way don't claim the Bible is corrupted only that some things may not have been translated correctly or left out because of the limited understanding of men.

I have been a member of the LDS church for nearly 50 years and it has always been and still is Christ centered. I demand that you stop repeating your lie.

Even your link to baptisms of the dead states, "First I must point out that the source of the LDS practice of vicarious baptism for the dead is NOT the Bible, but modern revelation,"

Oh well. Not in the Bible is not in the Bible. And as far as the early church building temples? No. They visited the Jewish temple to preach to them and worship as was their custom. But, nope, Jesus never commanded temples to be built.

Uh, earth to Hughes, they did indeed build temples. Remember Jesus chasing the money changers from the Temple.

Why does your church not have a temple?

Sorry, you are simply wrong here.

Tell us, Hughes, who is on top of the temple and what is does he signify?

Uh... who built temples? CFR.

Who is on the top? My understanding is that it's Moroni. The signification... not sure, announcing something with a trumpet?

Mormonism is true. The Book of Mormon is scripture. Joseph Smith was a prophet. He restored God's only true Church on earth. There is no salvation outside of God's only true Church. If you reject his testimony and the Church he established, you cannot be saved.

Praise God! Thanks for making that clear. I decided to be apart of the Christ's Church when I was 17 years old (I'm 47 now). Christ is the head of the church he established and always has been, since the beginning.

[ELF1024]

Uh... who built temples? CFR.

Of course the fact that Christ was a Jew (the temple builders) is completely lost on you.

[Vance]

Yet, you don't think your god is powerful enough to protect his word from mistranslations?

He is powerful enough that He doesn't need to.

The church never fell, as Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, and the head of his church. So no, it didn't fall.

So the Bible is wrong? Who knew?

Acts 20:28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

What part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand?

Even your link to baptisms of the dead states, "First I must point out that the source of the LDS practice of vicarious baptism for the dead is NOT the Bible, but modern revelation,"

Oh well. Not in the Bible is not in the Bible.

Your conclusion doesn't follow. Just because the Bible isn't the source doesn't mean that it isn't in the Bible.

Duh!

1 Cor 15:29

And as far as the early church building temples? No. They visited the Jewish temple to preach to them and worship as was their custom. But, nope, Jesus never commanded temples to be built.

So, you don't believe God commanded the building of the "Jewish" temple? Really?

Uh... who built temples?

Those that were commanded by God did.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Vance

[Nathair/|\]

Who commanded the building of temples from the time of Moses down on to the present day?

• YHWH/Jesus Christ.

What is written above the door of every one of Christ's temples in this dispensation?

• Holiness to the Lord The House of the Lord

Who is "the Lord?"

• YHWH/Jesus Christ

What did Jesus Christ say about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints?

• The only true and living church upon the face of the earth, with whom I, the Lord, am well pleased.

What is the purpose of the Book of Mormon?

• The convincing of Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ

What is the first principle of the gospel?

• Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

What scripture does the angel on the top of the temples represent?

• Revelation 14:6

Edited June 21, 2011 by Nathair

[zerinus]

Praise God! Thanks for making that clear. I decided to be apart of the Christ's Church when I was 17 years old (I'm 47 now). Christ is the head of the church he established and always has been, since the beginning.

Christ is at the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is His one and only true Church. The Church you believe in is apostate. There is no salvation outside of God's one and only true Church.

[Calm]

Yet, you don't think your god is powerful enough to protect his word from mistranslations?

Why if God chose to protect His Word from corruption did he not chose to protect His Church from such corruption as well?

[shalamabobbi]

Yet, you don't think your god is powerful enough to protect his word from mistranslations?

Or deletions..

You may not accept the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees as it exists in the BOM but it is quoted from in the new testament and is otherwise lost scripture..

[Hughes]

Of course the fact that Christ was a Jew (the temple builders) is completely lost on you.

The claim was that Christians built the temple or were commanded to build temples... which is false.

Who commanded the building of temples from the time of Moses down on to the present day?

• YHWH/Jesus Christ.

What is written above the door of every one of Christ's temples in this dispensation?

• Holiness to the Lord The House of the Lord

Who is "the Lord?"

• YHWH/Jesus Christ

What did Jesus Christ say about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints?

• The only true and living church upon the face of the earth, with whom I, the Lord, am well pleased.

What is the purpose of the Book of Mormon?

• The convincing of Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ

What is the first principle of the gospel?

• Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

What scripture does the angel on the top of the temples represent?

• Revelation 14:6

All very interesting. Please tell me where Jesus said to build temples, and where he said that a certain organization (the LDS church) is the one true church? And no, claimed "modern" revelation doesn't count, because that is what is supposedly being "known".

Christ is at the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is His one and only true Church. The Church you believe in is apostate. There is no salvation outside of God's one and only true Church.

In essence you believe I am not saved. Right? And yet I worship Jesus with joy in my spirit everyday and walk in his presence. And so to your false accusation, I just shrug my shoulders and say I love you despite your error. Because I know different. I experience the difference everyday.

Why if God chose to protect His Word from corruption did he not chose to protect His Church from such corruption as well?

Absolute power tends to corrupt, just as it does to any organization.

Why did God not stop the corruption, because he allows us freewill.

Or deletions..

You may not accept the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees as it exists in the BOM but it is quoted from in the new testament and is otherwise lost scripture..

Your point?

Edited June 22, 2011 by Hughes

[Nathair/|\]

The claim was that Christians built the temple or were commanded to build temples... which is false.

All very interesting. Please tell me where Jesus said to build temples,

2 Samuel 7:5

and where he said that a certain organization (the LDS church) is the one true church? And no, claimed "modern" revelation doesn't count, because that is what is supposedly being "known".

D&C 1:30

In essence you believe I am not saved. Right? And yet I worship Jesus with joy in my spirit everyday and walk in his presence. And so to your false accusation, I just shrug my shoulders and say I love you despite your error. Because I know different. I experience the difference everyday.

Absolute power tends to corrupt, just as it does to any organization.

Why did God not stop the corruption, because he allows us freewill.

Your point?

[shalamabobbi]

Your point?

If God protected the scriptures (I assume is your position) then why are there portions that were lost to us? Could not God protect His word?

And to answer, He does. That is why He brought forth the BOM.