Why I Know

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Since you have been a member of this forum for only two days, one wonders how you could have done what you claim here.

We are left wondering who you are.

Yes, this will probably get me banned from this topic, but I believe the answer is important.

Lehi

It is possibly Kevin Graham.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

But he had years to prepare a general narrative for the Book of Mormon story.,

I would like you to substantiate this claim. So far you have only asserted it. You would need to show tat the very least that he had written down this narrative. Can you do that?

IOW, he did have years to prepare, the question is did he? I don't believe there is very much evidence for this.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Why? Because John Tvednes contexualizes properly and the comments you refer to do not. That should be obvious.

This scenario fits exactly the story in Acts of Peter's revelation to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, as well as President Kimball's 1978 Priesthood revelation.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the latest priesthood manual talks about what the concept of a dark skin and a light skin refer to.

[Nathair/|\]

This isn't a matter of knowing more. I knew more about Mathematics at age 40 than I did at age 20. But if I thought 2+2= 376 at age 20, I'd have no business professing to be an authority on matters of mathematics. Likewise, when prophets speak errantly on the subject for which they are supposed to be an authority, it presents a similar problem: credibility. Especially when the "new" doctrine seems to conveniently correspond to a time when said doctrine is no longer tolerated by society at large.

Yes, but either what Kimball said was true, or it wasn't. If what he said wasn't true, then conceivably, what the modern Church says to the contrary might very well be considered errant fifty years from now. So what's the point in it all if the Mormon authorities have no real authority on matters of scriptural truths, and doctrines change with the winds of society?

It is usually the old school Mormons who do this. Those who remember the speeches by LDS leaders who opposed the Civil Rights movement, who would casually refer to the black race as that which is suffering because they were disobedient in the preexistence, etc. Eventually this group will get weeded out by a newer generation, but the problem isn't with popular opinion, but rather the integrity of one of the more important selling points for Mormonism; that unlike other Churches, Mormonism is led by true Prophets who will always tell us what God and the scriptures want us to know. In short, they do not have any leeway when it comes to misinterpreting scripture. But we know they do it. Joseph Smith did it, Brigham Young did it, Kimball did it, etc.

re: "Mormonism is led by true Prophets who will always tell us what God and the scriptures want us to know. In short, they do not have any leeway when it comes to misinterpreting scripture"

Are you arguing that if someone is a prophet, they will not misunderstand scripture? If so, CFR that this is not a non-sequitur.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

re: "Mormonism is led by true Prophets who will always tell us what God and the scriptures want us to know. In short, they do not have any leeway when it comes to misinterpreting scripture"

Are you arguing that if someone is a prophet, they will not misunderstand scripture? If so, CFR that this is not a non-sequitur.

What is interesting is when critics insist that the prophets are inerrant. And then when they find something wrong they all point to it like it is some grand conspiracy.

[ELF1024]

What is interesting is when critics insist that the prophets are inerrant. And then when they find something wrong they all point to it like it is some grand conspiracy.

Jonah, now there is quite the inerrant guy...

[Nemesis]

It is possibly Kevin Graham.

Yes, he is our guest and by invitation.

Nemesis

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes, he is our guest and by invitation.

Nemesis

I figured as I saw your comments in another thread. I have also had the opportunity to have exchange with him under his numerous other sock puppets over the years. Not that that matters. Glad he is here. Good to have a confirmation too.

[IloveaMormon]

I don't know what church you are going to but it's not the church I've been a member of for 50 years. There may be individuals who live their lives in misery, but I don't know any presently and it certainly isn't what the church teaches. You either are in a very strange ward or have already decided what the church is and so have closed your mind to what is really being presented.

I'd like you to consider when an investigator has serious questions about the LDS church they may actually have a valid reason for it. It may not be a case of them taking things the wrong way' or neccessarily have a 'closed mind'. I have contemplated long and hard and agonized in fact over 'Joseph Smiths 'revelations' which changed over the years as the just as the church keeps changing it's doctrine.

The church does not say 'be miserable' of course not but when a church thrives on making people feel small and instilling fear and judgment above love and joy this is what creates misery. This is not what God wants for me. I don't have to be 'God Fearing'. I am God loving. I don't need a fantastic story told by a remarkable and egotistical storyteller to know how to live my life in a moral way. I embrace the mystery of the hereafter. I don't need fake and fantastic promises of 'glory' to inspire me to live in the light of Christ daily.

This life is a gift from God. I will not waste it reciting the ramblings of a man who was not a prophet of God in my opinion.

I have the Bible. I am a child of God which makes me great. I can think, I an reason, I can question. I embrace my humanity. My human-ness is not a disease to be overcome.

I don't fear my own thoughts because like all that is best in me- they come from God as well.

I wish I could have your perspective of the LDS doctrine and believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet and the church is nothing but cheerful, loving and joyful. A church which truly stands for what Jesus Christ taught.

If you have been in the church for 50 years good for you. I am glad you belong to a church you can stand 100% behind.

[ELF1024]

The church does not say 'be miserable' of course not but when a church thrives on making people feel small and instilling fear and judgment above love and joy this is what creates misery. This is not what God wants for me. I don't have to be 'God Fearing'. I am God loving. I don't need a fantastic story told by a remarkable and egotistical storyteller to know how to live my life in a moral way. I embrace the mystery of the hereafter. I don't need fake and fantastic promises of 'glory' to inspire me to live in the light of Christ daily.

As a former excommunicated member... I have to say that I have never seen the highlighted attitude from the church. However, I'm not in Utah. As far as Alabama, New York, Tennessee, Wisconsin, New York, Arizona, and deployed with the military, I haven't seen it.

I have run into one church member who used unrighteous dominion to harshly rule over his family, however this was a specific and isolated incident; and not representative of the Church as a whole.

I am sorry that you perceive that the Church is focused on beating people down and making them feel small and fearful. I do not know what gave you that prospective.

The "Fear the Lord" antics I see generally come from the Evangelicals; my wife has been specifically beat down by her parents (Baptist) with the fear of God and unrighteous dominion throughout her life.

[altersteve]

IloveaMormon,

You have got it all wrong. I can safely assure you that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints certainly does teach and embrace love, open mindedness, freethinking, scholarship, knowledge, joy, forgiveness, empowerment, equality, freedom, and sharing. The Church absolutely does NOT "thrive on making people feel small and instilling fear and judgment." Where did you get that from? There is nothing in the Church that teaches that non-Mormons are not to be trusted. We believe that God is in all religions, and wherever truth may be found, "we claim it as our own doctrine," as Brigham Young once said, or something to that effect. All members of all faiths are children of God. The Church also does not teach that "human-ness is a disease to overcome." Rather, the LDS Church teaches that all humans are divine in nature and origin, that the soul is eternal and has the potential to do and become things that we cannot ever imagine.

You are free to disagree with some of our doctrines and teachings, but please do NOT tell lies about our faith.

[Hughes]

In Mormonism God is in charge, not man. The "overseers" are agents of God appointed by the spirit of prophecy and revelation as was the case in the early Church. That has been pointed out to you repeatedly. Why do you persistently ignore this? Your sincerity is in doubt as long as you continue to do so.

I have not given one quote from "modern revelation". All the quotes I have given you come from the Bible. Your real trouble is that you are stuck with an apostate religion, which skews your vision and prevents you form seeing the truth as it really is.

If you want to point me to someone like Peter, whose very shadow healed people, then I will say wow, but the word of God still directs me to himself, not an organization run by men. In other words, no. You've not demonstrated using the bible that the LDS church restored anything nor is authorized to act solely as God's only church on earth.

It is interesting that you don't think you've relied on modern revelation at all. It's the whole reason behind why you're defending your position. That's not a bad thing, it just is. We all have a point of view, and we all have reasons why we believe what we do. The fact remains that yours isn't based solely on the Biblical text. Mine is. You label mine as apostate, an opinion that isn't derived from the biblical text, but on extra biblical sources, what you call modern revelation.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'd like you to consider when an investigator has serious questions about the LDS church they may actually have a valid reason for it.

And they may not. No one disputes valid concerns.

It may not be a case of them taking things the wrong way' or neccessarily have a 'closed mind'. I have contemplated long and hard and agonized in fact over 'Joseph Smiths 'revelations' which changed over the years as the just as the church keeps changing it's doctrine.

Which doctrines changed? I know of some practices that have changed. Are you confusing the 2?

The church does not say 'be miserable' of course not but when a church thrives on making people feel small and instilling fear and judgment above love and joy this is what creates misery. This is not what God wants for me. I don't have to be 'God Fearing'.

You must be talking about a different church. I used to think like you do. Then I realized I was misunderstanding church doctrine. And the bible tells us to be "God fearing" so you wish to go against the bible?

I am God loving. I don't need a fantastic story told by a remarkable and egotistical storyteller to know how to live my life in a moral way. I embrace the mystery of the hereafter. I don't need fake and fantastic promises of 'glory' to inspire me to live in the light of Christ daily.

Nor does the LDS, do you suppose that we do?

This life is a gift from God. I will not waste it reciting the ramblings of a man who was not a prophet of God in my opinion.

Who told you that you needed to recite the ramblings of a prophet?

I have the Bible. I am a child of God which makes me great. I can think, I an reason, I can question. I embrace my humanity. My human-ness is not a disease to be overcome.

I can think and reason and question too. So what. Who claimed that being a human is a disease to over come? That is not LDs doctrine and that is certainly not taught.

I don't fear my own thoughts because like all that is best in me- they come from God as well.

I get the sense that you think the LDs people are just mindless rubes. No one I know fears their own thoughts.

I wish I could have your perspective of the LDS doctrine and believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet and the church is nothing but cheerful, loving and joyful. A church which truly stands for what Jesus Christ taught.

I don't think you wish this at all. Form what you have claimed this church you speak of is not the same church I belong to. I might suggest that perhaps the issue here is your perspective.

If you have been in the church for 50 years good for you. I am glad you belong to a church you can stand 100% behind.

I have not belonged to this church for 50 years but I stand behind it.

[Kevin Christensen]

The problem is that the Book of Mormon includes NT concepts, words, phrases, that had no business in a text supposedly written around 600 B.C.

That was Alexander Campbell's complaint back in 1831 or so, when he wrote his critique. It has not dated well with respect recent research regarding the roots of New Testament concepts and a realistic appreciation of what can and should appear in a translated text.

The life and work of Jesus were, and should be, interpreted in the light of something other than Jerusalem Judaism. This other had its roots in the conflicts of the sixth century BC when the traditions of the monarchy were divided as an inheritance amongst several heirs. It would have been lost but for the accidents of archaeological discovery and the evidence of pre-Christian texts preserved and transmitted only by Christian hands. Margaret Barker, The Older Testament: The Survival of Themes from the Ancient Royal Cult in Sectarian Judaism and Early Christianity (London: SPCK, 1987), 6–7, emphasis in original.

I see the convergence of Book of Mormon contents with reconstructed First Temple teaching as being one of the most exciting developments in modern scholarship.

I will not waste it reciting the ramblings of a man who was not a prophet of God in my opinion.

I have the Bible.

You did notice that I posted a links and a summary of 28 Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets? While I can accept that opinions differ, I personally like to see some demonstration of how a person should go about identifying a true prophet according to a Biblical standard. Not objecting just that a prophet-candidate says things I don't think, and displays values of which I do not approve. That is simply judging a prophet against one's personal preconceptions and desires. Not the most reliable standard of judgment, I think. Everyone approaches a prophet candidate with preconceptions and desires. Can we all assume that a prophet would never do or say anything different than what we already think and want? It happens that of over 70 arguments given by Biblical peoples in justifying their own rejection of Biblical prophets, all their arguments boil down to those two things. Not what I think, not what I want. No contrite spirit, no broken heart.

I have contemplated long and hard and agonized in fact over 'Joseph Smiths 'revelations' which changed over the years as the just as the church keeps changing it's doctrine.

Let's see what constitutes doctrine:

"And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me. And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned" (3 Nephi 11:33-34).

When has that doctrine changed in LDS history, or for that matter since the New Testament?

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Edited June 24, 2011 by Kevin Christensen

[IloveaMormon]

Since Deborah speaks for me, there is no reason to address what she already has. So I will finish up here.

You know, what is funny is that number 3 is totally false. That is not church doctrine. And number 5 is false as well. And the only requirements to enter the CK is ,faith, repentance and Baptism.

And being baptised is bad because? ANd being sealed to your husband is bad because? Oh and paying a full tithe is bad because?

Have you read Matthew 25? There seems to be a list of things we are to do in those parables. What are they?

What did the 5 virgins do that the other 5 did not. What did the 2 do with their talents that the one didn't do? What did the sheep do that the goats did not? Notice how faith is not mentioned in a single verse in those parables.

What church are you talking about? I have never been told to live 100% as that is impossible. And how is a lack of financial discourse a strike against the church? Prop 8 tells me that God is leading the church. I fail to see anything that you have presented that would "it is my connection with God which keeps me from joining such a church."

Best of luck to you in your journey.

I am definatley having a fun spiritual journey. Ok so I am totally wrong about having kids. Mormons don't believe its their job to have as many kids as possible to give the spirits waiting in line in the spirit world a body. Ok. My mistake!

About perfection- obviously the church does not come out and say 'Hey kids if your not 100% perfect your lost' but it does constantly emphasize striving for perfection and becoming worthy to live in 'Gods presence' in exaltation.Prop 8 tells you God is leading your church. Wow! Homophobia at its best. My God wants me to love and embrace everyone. Good luck on your journey of seeing God in such a small way- that He - the Creator of the Universe is not great enough to embrace all his children- not just heterosexuals. I guess your belief works for you- especially if you are heterosexual. Just like my LDS white brothers and sisters can't comprehend why a Mexican American (myself) would take issue with how people of color in the LDS doctrine. As for the parable about the 10 virgins... what I take from this is life should be lived well and joyfully (celebrating while being wise about needs to be done). Celebrating and 'being merry' doesn't have to be the antithesis of being smart and prepared. The joy is having balance. Work hard play hard because there is joy in both.

Keep hatin on our gay brothers and sisters and everyone else who is too different from you. Not Christ like but as you said, nobody is perfect.

[IloveaMormon]

And they may not. No one disputes valid concerns.

Which doctrines changed? I know of some practices that have changed. Are you confusing the 2?

You must be talking about a different church. I used to think like you do. Then I realized I was misunderstanding church doctrine. And the bible tells us to be "God fearing" so you wish to go against the bible?

Nor does the LDS, do you suppose that we do?

Who told you that you needed to recite the ramblings of a prophet?

I can think and reason and question too. So what. Who claimed that being a human is a disease to over come? That is not LDs doctrine and that is certainly not taught.

I get the sense that you think the LDs people are just mindless rubes. No one I know fears their own thoughts.

I don't think you wish this at all. Form what you have claimed this church you speak of is not the same church I belong to. I might suggest that perhaps the issue here is your perspective.

I have not belonged to this church for 50 years but I stand behind it.

[ELF1024]

I am definitely having a fun spiritual journey. Ok, so I am totally wrong about having kids. Mormons don't believe its their job to have as many kids as possible to give the spirits waiting in line in the spirit world a body. Ok. My mistake!

About perfection- obviously the church does not come out and say 'Hey kids if your not 100% perfect your lost' but it does constantly emphasize striving for perfection and becoming worthy to live in 'Gods presence' in exaltation.

2 Nephi 25:23

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Define: after all we can do... Does the Lord expect the same "all we can do" from someone with Down Syndrome? Someone with depression? Someone missing a limb?

What harm is there in striving?

Prop 8 tells you God is leading your church. Wow! Homophobia at its best.

That's a bit like Racebaiting, don't you think?

There is a difference between loving someone, and allowing them whatever they want. You can love a two year old, but still not allow him to eat his fill of candy just because he wants to.

There are many biblical verses to backup the LDS (an many other religions) policy on homosexuality.

You can love the sinner, but abhor the sin.

My God wants me to love and embrace everyone. Good luck on your journey of seeing God in such a small way- that He - the Creator of the Universe is not great enough to embrace all his children- not just heterosexuals. I guess your belief works for you- especially if you are heterosexual.

Just like my LDS white brothers and sisters can't comprehend why a Mexican American (myself) would take issue with how people of color in the LDS doctrine. As for the parable about the 10 virgins... what I take from this is life should be lived well and joyfully (celebrating while being wise about needs to be done). Celebrating and 'being merry' doesn't have to be the antithesis of being smart and prepared. The joy is having balance. Work hard play hard because there is joy in both.

Keep hatin on our gay brothers and sisters and everyone else who is too different from you. Not Christ like but as you said, nobody is perfect.

More race-baiting and silliness.

[altersteve]

Prop 8 tells you God is leading your church. Wow! Homophobia at its best. My God wants me to love and embrace everyone. Good luck on your journey of seeing God in such a small way- that He - the Creator of the Universe is not great enough to embrace all his children- not just heterosexuals. I guess your belief works for you- especially if you are heterosexual.

When will people understand that being against same-sex marriage does NOT make one homophobic? The Church fights against gay marriage because it strives to protect the sacred institution of marriage, which was ordained of God to be between a man and a woman. But we certainly are not a homophobic group. We support the rights of all people, including gays and lesbians, and the Church has come out in favor of pro-gay activities several times. The Church teaches us to love all people, gay or straight, black or white, disabled or otherwise. The Atonement was universal, not just for Mormons, but for all men and women everywhere. Do your research next time please. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is far from a homophobic church.

[IloveaMormon]

Q "Which doctrines changed? I know of some practices that have changed. Are you confusing the 2?"

"

A If you can't even acknowledge how the wording has changed in the BOM (Lamanites becoming white and delightsome just one example) I'll leave that alone.

Q "Who told you that you needed to recite the ramblings of a prophet"

A : Your church tells its members exactly what to say... "I know this church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet....." In church every Sunday the Book of Mormon is read and quoted and discussed. Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon... personal ramblings pasted together with portions of the Bible, with writings from other books of his day...thoughts of an interesting individual who claimed to be a prophet.

You are right. Nowhere in the BOM does it actually say being human is awful but that is the underlying message I hear.

Sin, repentance, suffering and 'measuring up'. The fear of 'natural man'. Natural man is what God made us. Your church does not teach empowerment. It teaches dependence.

I don't doubt anyone you know 'fears their own thoughts' because they do not question their faith. The church teaches when 'unspiritual thoughts' arise to immediately sing a hymn or read your scriptures to stop the thought. I don't think LDS members are mindless rubes. I think people do the best they can to reason in most situations.

I myself am in love with a faithful LDS man who is extremely intelligent. I wouldn't want to be with him if he wasn't.

[IloveaMormon]

That was Alexander Campbell's complaint back in 1831 or so, when he wrote his critique. It has not dated well with respect recent research regarding the roots of New Testament concepts and a realistic appreciation of what can and should appear in a translated text.

I see the convergence of Book of Mormon contents with reconstructed First Temple teaching as being one of the most exciting developments in modern scholarship.

You did notice that I posted a links and a summary of 28 Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets? While I can accept that opinions differ, I personally like to see some demonstration of how a person should go about identifying a true prophet according to a Biblical standard. Not objecting just that a prophet-candidate says things I don't think, and displays values of which I do not approve. That is simply judging a prophet against one's personal preconceptions and desires. Not the most reliable standard of judgment, I think. Everyone approaches a prophet candidate with preconceptions and desires. Can we all assume that a prophet would never do or say anything different than what we already think and want? It happens that of over 70 arguments given by Biblical peoples in justifying their own rejection of Biblical prophets, all their arguments boil down that those two things. Not what I think, not what I want. No contrite spirit, no broken heart.

Let's see what constitutes doctrine:

"And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me. And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned" (3 Nephi 11:33-34).

When has that doctrine changed in LDS history, or for that matter since the New Testament?

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[altersteve]

Q "Which doctrines changed? I know of some practices that have changed. Are you confusing the 2?"

"

A If you can't even acknowledge how the wording has changed in the BOM (Lamanites becoming white and delightsome just one example) I'll leave that alone.

This was changed by Joseph Smith to clarify it, not change it. The change, however, went unnoticed until sometime in the 1900s.

Q "Who told you that you needed to recite the ramblings of a prophet"

A : Your church tells its members exactly what to say... "I know this church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet....."

The Church does not in fact "tell its members exactly what to say." You can say whatever you want when bearing your testimony.

In church every Sunday the Book of Mormon is read and quoted and discussed.

Because it's scripture. The Bible is read and quoted and discussed as well.

Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon...

Prove it.

You are right. Nowhere in the BOM does it actually say being human is awful but that is the underlying message I hear.

Then you are hearing something that is simply not there.

Sin, repentance, suffering and 'measuring up'. The fear of 'natural man'. Natural man is what God made us.

CFR that the Church teaches us to fear the "natural man."

Your church does not teach empowerment. It teaches dependence.

CFR.

Anything else?

[ELF1024]

Q "Which doctrines changed? I know of some practices that have changed. Are you confusing the 2?"

"

A If you can't even acknowledge how the wording has changed in the BOM (Lamanites becoming white and delightsome just one example) I'll leave that alone.

Is that the best you can come up with?? Really?

Q "Who told you that you needed to recite the ramblings of a prophet"

A : Your church tells its members exactly what to say...

Completely false and unsupportable.

In church every Sunday the Book of Mormon is read and quoted and discussed.

Really? Not in my ward.

Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon... personal ramblings pasted together with portions of the Bible, with writings from other books of his day...thoughts of an interesting individual who claimed to be a prophet.

CFR, prove it. Back this up with facts or retract it.

You are right. Nowhere in the BOM does it actually say being human is awful but that is the underlying message I hear.

Projection of your own feelings and thoughts on Church doctrine and scripture is not relevant. Lets stick to the facts.

Sin, repentance, suffering and 'measuring up'. The fear of 'natural man'. Natural man is what God made us.

Mosiah 3:19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

If this wasn't the case why where they thrown out of the Garden of Eden?

Your church does not teach empowerment. It teaches dependence.

Complete baloney.

CFR

I don't doubt anyone you know 'fears their own thoughts' because they do not question their faith.

I've spent alot of time questioning my faith, that's why I was excommunicated for a number of years. I don't fear my own thoughts.

The church teaches when 'unspiritual thoughts' arise to immediately sing a hymn or read your scriptures to stop the thought.

LOL! I've never heard this one.

I don't think LDS members are mindless rubes. I think people do the best they can to reason in most situations.

I myself am in love with a faithful LDS man who is extremely intelligent. I wouldn't want to be with him if he wasn't.

Somehow I doubt your sincerity.

Edited June 24, 2011 by ELF1024

[Deborah]

Keep hatin on our gay brothers and sisters and everyone else who is too different from you. Not Christ like but as you said, nobody is perfect.

This is totally uncalled for and not true. I can't believe you say you love a Mormon and think all these things about him and what he believes. Gay marriage is not the same as accepting a person and loving them. I have a gay daughter whom I love but I do not support gay marriage; and neither does she for that matter.

[Deborah]

This topic is not about gay marriage or homosexuals. There are other threads dealing with that.

[zerinus]

If you want to point me to someone like Peter, whose very shadow healed people, then I will say wow, . . .

It is a “wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it” (Matthew 16:4).

. . . but the word of God still directs me to himself, not an organization run by men. In other words, no.

I don’t believe it. I have quoted you enough of the “word of God” to convince anyone; but you turn a blind eye to them. Therefore forgive me for being a little sceptical of your declared “love” for the word of God.

You've not demonstrated using the bible that the LDS church restored anything nor is authorized to act solely as God's only church on earth.

I have demonstrated to you by the Bible what the Lord’s true Church looked like in ancient times, and why the LDS Church today is the only Church that comes anywhere close.

It is interesting that you don't think you've relied on modern revelation at all.

That is because I am demonstrating to you that the very Bible you rely on contradicts your beliefs. I am trying to find common ground with you by quoting exclusively from the Bible. But it is evident from your responses that you no more believe in the Bible than you do in Modern revelation.

It's the whole reason behind why you're defending your position. That's not a bad thing, it just is. We all have a point of view, and we all have reasons why we believe what we do. The fact remains that yours isn't based solely on the Biblical text.

That is quite true. I am privileged to be a witness to the truth of modern revelation given to the Church Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints in our day. I testify that I know it is true.

Mine is.

I don’t believe it. I have quoted you verse after verse form the Bible, and you have turned a blind eye to every one of them. That proves that your theological thinking is not based on the Bible.

You label mine as apostate, an opinion that isn't derived from the biblical text, but on extra biblical sources, what you call modern revelation.

Not true. The Apostasy is demonstrable from Bible. But there would be little point in quoting them to you, because you have demonstrated that you pay lip service to the Bible, but you are not interested in what it actually says. You have a certain set of beliefs that you have formed outside of the Bible, thinking that they conforms to the Bible. But you haven’t really proved to yourself that it is; and those sets of beliefs are more important to you than what it says in the Bible. That is why you tenaciously stick to them even when it is demonstrated to you beyond reasonable doubt that they do not conform to the Bible. You are willing to close your eyes to the truth, and to what the Bible teaches, in order to hold on to your false beliefs. It is obvious that it would be a waste of time trying to prove to you the Apostasy from the Bible.