John Mark Reynolds On "The Book Of Mormon"

[Calm]

For those who are supporting the play, do you disagree that it mocks and ridicules at least some beliefs? If so, then how are you disagreeing with the author whose position is that the play mocks and ridicules some beliefs?

The author's position from what I read is that any such mocking is wrong whether it's for a minute or for the entire play while critics of his position are okay with mocking, especially if it's done in a 'good cause'.

And if one holds the first position, just how much of the play does one have to see to figure out that it contains mocking so it's appropriate to point out that the play contains mocking and ridicule?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In the play, no one is suggesting that Mormons are "idiots,"

These comments are indicative of the kind of mis-judgements that are made by someone who hasn't seen the play, but seems to feel as if he has a full understanding of the take-away of the play is.

Daniel2

Um yeah.... Did you watch the song "I Believe"? They portrayed the elder as an idiot that just needs to believe for no other reason but to believe. That is not the LDS experience or doctrine.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

For those who are supporting the play, do you disagree that it mocks and ridicules at least some beliefs? If so, then how are you disagreeing with the author whose position is that the play mocks and ridicules some beliefs?

The author's position from what I read is that any such mocking is wrong whether it's for a minute or for the entire play while critics of his position are okay with mocking, especially if it's done in a 'good cause'.

And if one holds the first position, just how much of the play does one have to see to figure out that it contains mocking so it's appropriate to point out that the play contains mocking and ridicule?

What I seem to see is that the ends justify the means. As long as there is a good point some were in the play it does not matter what came before or after that. I am really baffled here.

I tried to talk to Jaybear about this but he seemed to have missed it.

[Daniel2]

Look up the meaning of parody. We do not ridicule the human experience. A single line or feel good point at the end of the play does little to nothing when it comes to mitigating the overall feel that Mormons are somehow idiots, but nice idiots. Idiots have their place, their ghettos, but we should never be associated with idiots beyond humoring them. This underlies the play.

One need not see the movie to understand the outcome which has been very carefully detailed by those for and against the play.

As requested:

par·o·dy   /ˈpærədi/ Show Spelled

[par-uh-dee] Show IPA

noun, plural -dies, verb, -died, -dy·ing.

–noun

1. a humorous or satirical imitation of a serious piece of literature or writing: his hilarious parody of Hamlet's soliloquy.

2. the genre of literary composition represented by such imitations.

3. a burlesque imitation of a musical composition.

Parody, by definition, does not necessarily mean that it is seeking to "ridicule," which includes an additional aspect of an effort to cause contempt or derision:

rid·i·cule   /ˈrɪdɪˌkyul/ Show Spelled

[rid-i-kyool] Show IPA

noun, verb, -culed, -cul·ing.

–noun

1. speech or action intended to cause contemptuous laughter at a person or thing; derision.

The "contempt" aspect is also found in the primary meanings of "mock":

mock   /mɒk/ Show Spelled

[mok] Show IPA

–verb (used with object)

1. to attack or treat with ridicule, contempt, or derision.

2. to ridicule by mimicry of action or speech; mimic derisively.

3. to mimic, imitate, or counterfeit.

In all seriousness (and I imagine what I'm about to say will be met initially with a sense of incredulity by some), though it's clear that parody is in keeping with the aims of the authors of the play, I don't believe the characters, humor, or songs of "The Book of Mormon" musical were aiming to inspire contempt or derision from the audience. The missionaries (and even Joseph Smith) are portrayed in an actually very positive (though humanly-flawed) light and are the protagonists of the story.

Yeah. I know. Most of you will disagree. And I'm a big boy and can take that.

Daniel2

Edited June 17, 2011 by Daniel2

[Jeff K.]

In the play, no one is suggesting that Mormons are "idiots," nor is there any insuation even remotely connected to the idea that anyone should have or stick to a "ghetto," or that one should avoid interacting with Mormons, etc.

These comments are indicative of the kind of mis-judgements that are made by someone who hasn't seen the play, but seems to feel as if he has a full understanding of the take-away of the play is.

Daniel2

In the play no one suggests Mormons are idiots? The entire play is geared with the attitude "can you believe Mormons buy this idiocy".

Look I don't need to see child porn to know it is wrong. I don't need to experience pedastry to know I should be against it. Your fallacious logic that there is something subtle in the Mormon musical that is somehow being missed those who haven't see it reflects a certain level of disengenuousness. What has been described, even by its advocates is an over the top parody of idiocy which they use to define Mormonism. Try not to pee on us and call it rain Daniel. We really aren't idiots you know.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In the play no one suggests Mormons are idiots? The entire play is geared with the attitude "can you believe Mormons buy this idiocy".

Look I don't need to see child porn to know it is wrong. I don't need to experience pedastry to know I should be against it. Your fallacious logic that there is something subtle in the Mormon musical that is somehow being missed those who haven't see it reflects a certain level of disingenuous. What has been described, even by its advocates is an over the top parody of idiocy which they use to define Mormonism. Try not to pee on us and call it rain Daniel. We really aren't idiots you know.

This sorta of reminds me of an argument that a certain portion of society advocates that you don't really know you if you like 'til you try it. How do you know your not "X" until you try it.

[cinepro]

Um yeah.... Did you watch the song "I Believe"? They portrayed the elder as an idiot that just needs to believe for no other reason but to believe. That is not the LDS experience or doctrine.

Actually, he explains why he believes:

I believe the Lord will reveal it. And you'll know it's all true, you'll just feel it.

Did you miss that part, or are you saying that Mormons don't believe in personal revelation from the Lord that comes as feelings in our hearts?

Also, a lot of people are complaining that the play presents Mormons as "idiots". Frankly, I've known a lot of Mormons who are idiots, so I can't really accuse the creators of straying outside the bounds of reality on that point.

Edited June 17, 2011 by cinepro

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Also, a lot of people are complaining that the play presents Mormons as "idiots". Frankly, I've known a lot of Mormons who are idiots, so I can't really accuse the creators of straying outside the bounds of reality on that point.

Classic, done after the true manner of the play. I award you a Tony now.

"I am a Mormon and Mormons just beleive".

Yeah that sure is good ol' LDS doctrine. Sounds a little circular to me.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[cdowis]

For those who are supporting the play, do you disagree that it mocks and ridicules at least some beliefs? If so, then how are you disagreeing with the author whose position is that the play mocks and ridicules some beliefs?

I had to see for myself, and I agree with you. You will find the lyrics HERE

It takes the antimormon view of the LDS religion and puts it to music. Now the antis have their own theme song.

[cdowis]

Here are some things that we "believe":

• And I Believe; that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!
  You can be a Mormon
  A Mormon who just believes! ........
  You can be a Mormon: you'll feel it
  And you'll know it's all true: you just... feel it
  Believe; that God lives on a planet called Kolob
  I Believe; that Jesus has his own planet as well.....
  I Believe; that plan involves me getting my own planet
  

And you do not have a problem with this?

The plan of God is to get all of us our own planet -- that's the Plan of Salvation in a nutshell .... there is no place for doubt..... our belief is based on feelings (not revelation, not study, not meditation -- just a feeling)....

.........God changed his mind about blacks....

This cartoonish description of our religion paints us as unthinking morons, idiots.

Edited June 17, 2011 by cdowis

[Jeff K.]

So when someone says "Oh no, the play doesn't mock our religion" (despite the fact the author states as much) and it doesn't portray Mormons as idiots (based on their belief not their human foibles which can be idiotic). They lose all credibility in being able to honestly assess anything in regards to our belief system or even what color the sky is.

I think he's caucasion by the way (sky that is).

[KevinG]

I think he's caucasion by the way (sky that is).

Shows what you know. Sky is a she.

[cinepro]

Here are some things that we "believe":

• And I Believe; that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!
  You can be a Mormon
  A Mormon who just believes! ........
  You can be a Mormon: you'll feel it
  And you'll know it's all true: you just... feel it
  Believe; that God lives on a planet called Kolob
  I Believe; that Jesus has his own planet as well.....
  I Believe; that plan involves me getting my own planet
  

And you do not have a problem with this?

The plan of God is to get all of us our own planet -- that's the Plan of Salvation in a nutshell .... there is no place for doubt..... our belief is based on feelings (not revelation, not study, not meditation -- just a feeling)....

.........God changed his mind about blacks....

Hmmm....It's possible LDS have spent so many years trying to figure out ways to make our beliefs sound less unusual that it's discomfiting to have them presented so plainly.

If they had instead sung about "becoming a God as well", would that have been better? Did you want them to mention "eternal increase"? I know we don't usually mention those things up front, but I think we may have all forgotten what it's really like when people misrepresent our beliefs.

As for the "feelings" and "doubt", I don't know what Church you go to, but the LDS Church is pretty clear that we can know the truth through the feelings the Holy Ghost gives us, and that doubt is very, very bad.

Our testimony is the fruit of obedience in the form of peace, joy, and understanding in our hearts of gospel principles. A testimony is a shield of faith “wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked” (D&C 27:17).

Our testimony is a measurement of our faith. Faith is testimony; testimony is faith. Having a strong testimony allows us to help others in their search for truth. Our testimony is a gift from God. It should be shared, but we do not have the authority to bestow a testimony upon someone else, because a personal testimony is granted by the Holy Ghost. It can aid others in gaining knowledge for themselves—a knowledge abiding in the heart that leaves no room for doubt.

How You Can Know

[Jeff K.]

Plainly, simply, those are good words.

Southpark with the context of its music and play does not do those things. Lets us be honest with the context and understanding. If the author states it is mockery, then why do you deny the author's own words? If not to be dishonest in describing the author's intent?

[Jeff K.]

Shows what you know. Sky is a she.

Chuckle.... I need to pay more attention to who is writing instead of what is written.

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

I must have missed that Sunday School discussion on getting my own planet in these 40+ years of my membership.

I don't know that too many Christians sing about not wanting to be like Jesus.

I thought the Scriptures tell us to test if Jesus the Christ is who he claims to be. You know all good fruit from the good tree stuff.

[TAO]

Hmmm....It's possible LDS have spent so many years trying to figure out ways to make our beliefs sound less unusual that it's discomfiting to have them presented so plainly.

If they had instead sung about "becoming a God as well", would that have been better? Did you want them to mention "eternal increase"? I know we don't usually mention those things up front, but I think we may have all forgotten what it's really like when people misrepresent our beliefs.

As for the "feelings" and "doubt", I don't know what Church you go to, but the LDS Church is pretty clear that we can know the truth through the feelings the Holy Ghost gives us, and that doubt is very, very bad.

This is not correct cinepro - these are not our beliefs.

Our scriptures never say that God changed his mind about black people. Changing the mind being the key operating word.

Our scriptures never say that God lives on a planet named Kolob. They say he lives near a star named Kolob. Again, wrong.

Our scriptures never say that Jesus has his own planet, either. Again, has being the operative word, it is incorrect. 'Will have'... maybe... but 'has'... not so sure. Second of all, even if so, it would be multiple planets, not one.

Our scriptures never say that we will be getting our own planet. That is an assumption by reading into it. It may be right, but it may be not. Also, reading into it tends to lead you to think it's 'bigger' than a planet, so this is twice wrong, (the text, and the assumption).

No, these are not our beliefs. They are the way our beliefs are characterized by those who have left, or by those who haven't studied very much. Neither of those represent 'our beliefs'. =/ They just represent how others, mostly our critics, sometimes think of us. =|

Best Wishes,

TAO

Edited June 18, 2011 by TAO

[cinepro]

cinepro:

I must have missed that Sunday School discussion on getting my own planet in these 40+ years of my membership.

I don't know that too many Christians sing about not wanting to be like Jesus.

I thought the Scriptures tell us to test if Jesus the Christ is who he claims to be. You know all good fruit from the good tree stuff.

TSS and TAO, I think you're holding Elder Price to an impossibly high standard of doctrinal purity, one that would probably not be met by any regular LDS, including a missionary.

As I've mentioned before, there are a few points of order that cause me to blanch. The missionaries not knowing where they're going until they've finished their training. Joseph not being allowed to show the plates to anyone, making it sound like there were no witnesses.

But the points under question are entirely within the realm of common LDS belief, or are so minor that to argue them only compounds the embarrassment.

I was once on a camping trip to Yosemite with some very devout LDS family and friends, and while marveling at the scenic wonders, the conversation turned into sincere joking about which landmarks they would have "on their planets". So while the finer points of the doctrine and philosophy aren't widely discussed, the concept of having your own planet is well accepted by some portion of the Church.

So Elder Price doesn't represent every member of the Church, or the apologists, or the PR department. He just represents a certain strain of Mormon that isn't as well schooled in the nuances of the doctrine, and it is entirely believable to me that there would be a sincere, slightly over-zealous missionary who believes he'll get his own planet, that Kolob is a planet, and that Jesus may have already gotten his.

As for God "changing His mind about black people", I understand the philosophical argument towards an omniscient God not "changing His mind" about anything. But if the question is "Do black people get to have the Priesthood?", then God's answer on June 8, 1977 was apparently "no", and His answer on June 8, 1978 was "yes". It may have been planned, but from our limited perspective (and not knowing the plan and even having at least one apostle teaching it probably wasn't going to happen anytime soon), it can legitimately be referred to as a "change of mind" from our mortal perspective.

Again, it's funny in the song because we usually couch the change in policy in more eloquent explanations involving "revelation" and policy, with a lot of hindsight to help out. But if President Monson came out on Sunday and said women could have the priesthood, I would sure as heck feel like God had "changed His mind" on the subject, while future generations would point to 2011 as being some inevitable pre-ordained date for the occasion with no "mind changing" having occurred.

[cdowis]

Hmmm....It's possible LDS have spent so many years trying to figure out ways to make our beliefs sound less unusual that it's discomfiting to have them presented so plainly.

I guess I need to go to the antimormons to find out what I really believe. They tell me clearly what the LDS teach.

If they had instead sung about "becoming a God as well", would that have been better?

It would have been "better" that they had treated our religion with the respect it deserves. But that does not make money. Mockery makes money, as those who inhabit the great building well know..

snip

As for the "feelings" and "doubt", I don't know what Church you go to, but the LDS Church is pretty clear that we can know the truth through the feelings the Holy Ghost gives us, and that doubt is very, very bad.

This is a teaching of the antimormons..... Clearly they are not talking about the tests mentioned in the BOM, but the cartoon version.... "you gotta FEEL it". You feel something when you go to a bar, when you watch porn, when you steal money. "You gotta feel it" is not the same as what the BOM teaches us.

The antimormons have poisoned your mind. You don't even understand what the church teaches anymore. May I suggest that you read Alma 32 (start with ver 17) and see what we actually believe. Read Moroni 1): 4-5 in the LDS version of the BOM, not the antimormon version. Find out what it really says.

Edited June 18, 2011 by cdowis

[cdowis]

Cinepro,

The antis have a good knowledge of LDS doctrine, but have the ability to twist and spin it outside its real meaning. Just add a clever phrase.

For example,

• God "changed his mind" to give blacks the priesthood.
  You can know it's true.... you just gotta feel it.
  God will give you your own planet.... Christ has one, and so can you.

I;'m afraid for you. You appear to be knocking at the door of the great building to gain admittance. I hear footsteps.......

Edited June 18, 2011 by cdowis

[cinepro]

Cinepro,

The antis have a good knowledge of LDS doctrine, but have the ability to twist and spin it outside its real meaning. Just add a clever phrase.

Actually, I strongly suspect the somewhere along the line Trey Parker and Matt Stone saw "Saturday's Warrior" and took some of their cues from that production. And I would be hard pressed to say which presents a more skewed version of the doctrine. At least the Book of Mormon musical doesn't appear to teach that people were pairing up as spouses in the pre-existence.

One interesting similarity between the two plays is the personalities of the missionaries. The song "Humble Way" is quite thematically similar to The Book of Mormon's "You And Me (But Mostly Me) ".

Edited June 18, 2011 by cinepro

[neworder]

Never Mind.

Edited June 19, 2011 by neworder

[TAO]

I don't post much because everybody here is a lot smarter than me.

My friend, you should not worry about this XD. You are smarter than most of us, probably.

Best Wishes,

TAO

[TAO]

TSS and TAO, I think you're holding Elder Price to an impossibly high standard of doctrinal purity, one that would probably not be met by any regular LDS, including a missionary.

Mmm... perhaps... but I think you are holding Elder Price to a very low standard of doctrinal purity. Most missionaries know more than this, one of the reasons being seminary. Most of the people in the ward know better than this too. For example, we had a youth activity called 'Nephite-Lamanite War' recently. What did they use to decorate the invitation, but Mesoamerican/Southamerican runes. I think you underestimate how much Mormons know, and especially how much Mormon youth know.

As I've mentioned before, there are a few points of order that cause me to blanch. The missionaries not knowing where they're going until they've finished their training. Joseph not being allowed to show the plates to anyone, making it sound like there were no witnesses.

But the points under question are entirely within the realm of common LDS belief, or are so minor that to argue them only compounds the embarrassment.

But that's my point - they aren't that common. Perhaps it's because I don't live where you live - and the culture is different - but those ideas would not be common in my ward, I think.

I was once on a camping trip to Yosemite with some very devout LDS family and friends, and while marveling at the scenic wonders, the conversation turned into sincere joking about which landmarks they would have "on their planets". So while the finer points of the doctrine and philosophy aren't widely discussed, the concept of having your own planet is well accepted by some portion of the Church.

Perhaps a culture difference, again.

So Elder Price doesn't represent every member of the Church, or the apologists, or the PR department. He just represents a certain strain of Mormon that isn't as well schooled in the nuances of the doctrine, and it is entirely believable to me that there would be a sincere, slightly over-zealous missionary who believes he'll get his own planet, that Kolob is a planet, and that Jesus may have already gotten his.

He doesn't represent most Mormons in my ward, that's for sure. But you see, that is the part of the point - why would Broadway pick something that was unlikely to actually be the case, and portray it as if it is a common case? This is why I have a problem with it - because it is rather unlikely for it to happen, and yet it is portrayed as being something that happens commonly, in my opinion.

As for God "changing His mind about black people", I understand the philosophical argument towards an omniscient God not "changing His mind" about anything.

Do you understand his rationale for doing such? He's not really changing his mind if he has got it planned all along, if you know what I mean.

But if the question is "Do black people get to have the Priesthood?", then God's answer on June 8, 1977 was apparently "no", and His answer on June 8, 1978 was "yes".

Again, my friend, this isn't 'changing his mind'. Just as I wouldn't call it changing of mind, God calling for the gospel to be preached to the gentiles. God has these things being planned ahead, and so no, it's not 'a change of mind', it's just 'the right timing'.

It may have been planned, but from our limited perspective (and not knowing the plan and even having at least one apostle teaching it probably wasn't going to happen anytime soon), it can legitimately be referred to as a "change of mind" from our mortal perspective.

No it cannot my friend. Let me give you an example (and hey, it's real to a degree). I have been trying to get a girl to be willing to date me for a long while. Originally, she didn't want to date me, and so I had to very slowly work my way up so that, as of now, she would like to (yayz =D). But, the thing is, knowing people, I know that a single strategy cannot be used successfully in convincing someone to date you. So I started off more conservative, and yet emotional... then I added in teasing... and kindness... and deep thoughts... and trying to learn activities she liked doing. Over time, my strategies changed to get to the goal. But did I change my mind? No. It was planned. I just changed my strategy to implement it. When I ran into walls, no matter, here is the method that I will use to overcome that.

So no, it's not a changed mind, sorry =P.

Again, it's funny in the song because we usually couch the change in policy in more eloquent explanations involving "revelation" and policy, with a lot of hindsight to help out.

Is that really a problem if that's what happened?

But if President Monson came out on Sunday and said women could have the priesthood, I would sure as heck feel like God had "changed His mind" on the subject, while future generations would point to 2011 as being some inevitable pre-ordained date for the occasion with no "mind changing" having occurred.

And it would be. God didn't just tell Alma all the places he was going to teach people - he led him by faith - telling him only what he needed immediately to know and do. Did God plan it? Yes, I would say so. We need to walk in faith in the Lord with all the weird steps he will have us take - because they will ultimately lead us where we need to go. And that's what I think is really all that matters. Belief comes from hope. Hope comes from charity. And from belief spouts knowledge. But we have to take the steps of faith first, to lead us where we need to go. The eyes that can see in darkness, those are God's eyes =).

[cinepro]

As for the "feelings" and "doubt", I don't know what Church you go to, but the LDS Church is pretty clear that we can know the truth through the feelings the Holy Ghost gives us, and that doubt is very, very bad.

This is a teaching of the antimormons..... Clearly they are not talking about the tests mentioned in the BOM, but the cartoon version.... "you gotta FEEL it". You feel something when you go to a bar, when you watch porn, when you steal money. "You gotta feel it" is not the same as what the BOM teaches us.

The antimormons have poisoned your mind. You don't even understand what the church teaches anymore. May I suggest that you read Alma 32 (start with ver 17) and see what we actually believe. Read Moroni 1): 4-5 in the LDS version of the BOM, not the antimormon version. Find out what it really says.

I'm a little mystified that you are taking exception to that line. LDS regularly refer to the promptings of the Holy Ghost as "feelings", and Moroni 10:5 says "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye shall know the truth of all things." That's the LDS version. I don't know what the antimormon version says.

And in D&C 9, the Lord teaches us how the Holy Ghost communicates with us:

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

(Emphasis added)

So, if we know the truthfulness of the Church by the power of the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost speaks to us through feelings, I don't see why it's so controversial for a missionary to sing:

I believe the Lord will reveal it. And you'll know it's all true, you'll just feel it.

You'll be a Mormon, and by gosh, a Mormon just believes!

He fully acknowledges that it is being revealed by the Lord. As for Alma 32, earlier in the song, he sings:

And now I can feel the excitement, this is the moment I was born to do.

And I feel so incredible, to be sharing my faith with you.

The scriptures say that if you ask in faith, if you ask God himself you will know.

But you must ask Him without any doubt, and let your spirit grow...

Letting your spirit "grow" is certainly inline with what Alma teaches.

Additional Church teachings on the Holy Ghost and "feelings":

Remind the children that the Holy Ghost does not always speak in a voice we can hear. Many times he gives us feelings about what we should do.

Primary

Sometimes the Holy Ghost guides us by causing us to have a warm, peaceful feeling in our hearts.

Gospel Fundamentals

That communication [from the Holy Ghost] seldom comes audibly. Most of the time it comes through your feelings, as it did in this case.

What Every Member Should Know

While we speak of ‘listening’ to the whisperings of the Spirit, most often one describes a spiritual prompting by saying, ‘I had a feeling …’” He continued: “This voice of the Spirit speaks gently, prompting you what to do or what to say, or it may caution or warn you” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1994, 77; or Ensign, Nov. 1994, 60).

Gospel Principles

So it appears to me that the Church consistently teaches that we can know the truth by "feeling it", and having a missionary sing about it is in line with the doctrine on the subject.

Edited June 19, 2011 by cinepro