John Mark Reynolds On "The Book Of Mormon"

[KevinG]

This is the last comment I will have on this topic.

I've been involved in musical productions for 40 years. I've played and directed musicals including ...Pirates of Penzance.

Pirate mockery will not be tolerated. -The Pirate King

[Bernard Gui]

Pirate mockery will not be tolerated. -The Pirate King

You are the very model of a modern Major General.

Bernard

Edited June 23, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[cinepro]

It's sad what these people have done to a once great American art form. The bar has been set so low, that we are now defending and honoring the grossest obscenities because they make us laugh. Where will it go from here?

What does the next show have to do in order to win the coveted Tony?

The makers of the show claim they just wanted to do something in the tradition of Rodgers and Hammerstein and the Mormons were a good vehicle for their excursion...

R & H took on some tough social issues and made serious comments, but they never resorted to offal like BoM.

What a debased mockery of their lives' work!

I agree with you about the profanity and crudity.

Since you won't be commenting in this thread, I'll start another to ask a question for which you might have insight.

[cdowis]

Now you've got me curious. Suppose you were at work and someone pulled you aside and said "Hey cdowis, I know you're a Mormon and I saw the Tony awards last week. Do you guys really believe you'll get your own planet one day?"*

"Well, let me ask you. Do you really believe that your purpose in life is to learn how to play a harp.

This is a comedy, it gives the cartoon version of Mormon doctrine, and they make money by making people laugh at the Mormons."

snip

*Bonus question: The guy then says that he was curious so he went to the Church website to see what we teach, and in a book called "Gospel Principles" he read that our goal is "Exaltation", and this involves becoming the "father of spirit children" and a "creator" like God is. His understanding is that God "created" this planet, and so this sounds like the manual is saying we also get to be "creators" of something similar. Is he reading this wrong?

"I am glad that you are showing such an interest in the doctrines of my church. I know a couple of missionaries who will be happy to explain it to you, step-by-step. There is no real short answer until you understand our beliefs.

"To understand the purpose of our life here on earth will take some time and patient listening. You will learn where we came from before we were born, why we are here, and what happens to us after death. You will find it very interesting."

Edited June 24, 2011 by cdowis

[Jaybear]

Friend to CDOWIS: ... Am I reading this wrong?

CDOWIS: "I am glad that you are showing such an interest in the doctrines of my church. I know a couple of missionaries who will be happy to explain it to you, step-by-step. There is no real short answer until you understand our beliefs.

"To understand the purpose of our life here on earth will take some time and patient listening. You will learn where we came from before we were born, why we are here, and what happens to us after death. You will find it very interesting."

Friend to CDOWIS: I thought because we are friends, I could get a straight answer from you. I guess I was wrong.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Jaybear

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Friend to CDOWIS: ... Am I reading this wrong?

Friend to CDOWIS: I thought because we are friends, I could get a straight answer from you. I guess I was wrong.

What are you talking about?

[Jaybear]

What are you talking about?

Cinepro to Cdowis:

Suppose you were at work and someone pulled you aside and said "Hey cdowis, I know you're a Mormon and I saw the Tony awards last week. Do you guys really believe you'll get your own planet one day?"*

...

*Bonus question: The guy then says that he was curious so he went to the Church website to see what we teach, and in a book called "Gospel Principles" he read that our goal is "Exaltation", and this involves becoming the "father of spirit children" and a "creator" like God is. His understanding is that God "created" this planet, and so this sounds like the manual is saying we also get to be "creators" of something similar. Is he reading this wrong?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Cinepro to Cdowis:

I was confused about your insertion of "Friend to CDOWIS: I thought because we are friends, I could get a straight answer from you. I guess I was wrong. "

I thought it was an acceptable response. He was not dodging the issue as you imply. Oh well.

[cinepro]

First of all cdowis, what do you have against the "Quote" feature? It's very useful.

"Well, let me ask you. Do you really believe that your purpose in life is to learn how to play a harp.

This is a comedy, it gives the cartoon version of Mormon doctrine, and they make money by making people laugh at the Mormons."

"I am glad that you are showing such an interest in the doctrines of my church. I know a couple of missionaries who will be happy to explain it to you, step-by-step. There is no real short answer until you understand our beliefs.

"To understand the purpose of our life here on earth will take some time and patient listening. You will learn where we came from before we were born, why we are here, and what happens to us after death. You will find it very interesting."

Interestingly, if you ask a Scientologist about Xenu (I have), they say almost exactly the same thing.

I wonder why that is.

[cinepro]

I thought it was an acceptable response. He was not dodging the issue as you imply. Oh well.

Mola, pretend a friend asked you the exact same thing and you made a conscious effort to dodge the issue without actually lying to your friend.

What would you say? In other words, if you were trying to dodge the issue, how would your response be different from cdowis's?

[cdowis]

I would give him the "Mormon.org card" and let him find out for himself on the internet. There is a chat line where he can ask his questions.

It's clear that religion is one of those "don't talk about it" topics, like politics.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola, pretend a friend asked you the exact same thing and you made a conscious effort to dodge the issue without actually lying to your friend.

What would you say? In other words, if you were trying to dodge the issue, how would your response be different from cdowis's?

I would say...." A I don't know" that would be dodging the issue and it is not lying either. If I wanted to discuss the issue getting the missionaries involved is hardly a dodge. It is a shame you think it is.

look, to be clear, if I were to have this conversation I would say ,that the idea of getting our own planet is not doctrine, it is something that has been speculated upon.

[ELF1024]

I would say...." A I don't know" that would be dodging the issue and it is not lying either. If I wanted to discuss the issue getting the missionaries involved is hardly a dodge. It is a shame you think it is.

look, to be clear, if I were to have this conversation I would say ,that the idea of getting our own planet is not doctrine, it is something that has been speculated upon.

My answer would also be based on what I felt was the level of seriousness posed by the question asker. If I didn't feel the question was sincere I may blow off the person, and tell them I don't know. I may also refer them to the Mormon.Org chat line and let them deal with the user.

Then again if the person was sincere, I might attempt to engage the person with an answer, and end up referring them to the missionaries if I felt it was beyond my abilities to answer.

Edited June 24, 2011 by ELF1024

[Jaybear]

I would say...." A I don't know" that would be dodging the issue and it is not lying either. If I wanted to discuss the issue getting the missionaries involved is hardly a dodge. It is a shame you think it is.

look, to be clear, if I were to have this conversation I would say ,that the idea of getting our own planet is not doctrine, it is something that has been speculated upon.

Sorry, but the LDS concept of exhalation is not as complicated as CDowis pretends ... and yes, it is doctrine.

"His understanding is that God "created" this planet, and so this sounds like the manual is saying we also get to be "creators" of something similar."

Straight answer: Yes, it is similar. In fact, one of our Prophets once said: As God is, man may become.

As for the missionaries, weren't you a missionary? Isn't every member a missionary. Why would you assume that 19 year old boy would be more capable of answering this simple question than you, or CDowis.

[ELF1024]

Sorry, but the LDS concept of exhalation is not as complicated as CDowis pretends ... and yes, it is doctrine.

"His understanding is that God "created" this planet, and so this sounds like the manual is saying we also get to be "creators" of something similar."

Straight answer: Yes, it is similar. In fact, one of our Prophets once said: As God is, man may become.

As for the missionaries, weren't you a missionary? Isn't every member a missionary. Why would you assume that 19 year old boy would be more capable of answering this simple question than you, or CDowis.

Well, it appears that you already knew the answer.

In which case, I'd say that CDowis gave you the correct response.

Edited June 24, 2011 by ELF1024

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Sorry, but the LDS concept of exhalation is not as complicated as CDowis pretends ... and yes, it is doctrine.

"His understanding is that God "created" this planet, and so this sounds like the manual is saying we also get to be "creators" of something similar."

Straight answer: Yes, it is similar. In fact, one of our Prophets once said: As God is, man may become.

As for the missionaries, weren't you a missionary? Isn't every member a missionary. Why would you assume that 19 year old boy would be more capable of answering this simple question than you, or CDowis.

You might infer or speculate that we get our own planet but it is not definitive doctrine. I really don't know what we will get. I have some idea but it is not set in stone.

What I mean to say is that there is nothing written any were that says " you will get a planet". Since that is no were used then you must use speculation and inference. I should say that there is nothing in being a creator does not demand that one creates planets. The D&C only says that we will have eternal lives and are as teh Gods. What does that mean? I really do not know. Is it possible that we will create planets? Yeah, but that is not doctrine. Are you seeing a patter here?

[LeSellers]

Sorry, but the LDS concept of exhalation is not as complicated as CDowis pretends

It is very simple. Just like inhalation, but the reverse.

Lehi

[cinepro]

Another question:

Would any LDS here prefer that the song say "I believe that God has a plan of us… and that that plan involves me becoming a God too."

Obviously, LDS would prefer that the missionary sing something a little more palatable for Gentile tastes (or even better, encourage the audience to seek out real Mormon missionaries to find out the "milk" version of what LDS believe).

But given the choice between a missionary singing that he believes God's plan involves him "getting his own planet", or him "becoming a God too", which would you choose?

Edited June 24, 2011 by cinepro

[cdowis]

As for the missionaries, weren't you a missionary? Isn't every member a missionary. Why would you assume that 19 year old boy would be more capable of answering this simple question than you, or CDowis.

I guess you and I see things differently. I prefer to invite someone to Christ. You satisfy their intellectual curiosity.

My participation here on this forum is a hobby, and I understand the difference between the hobby and actual missionary work. My goal is to get them to the missionaries, as we have been taught to do.

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

What a Hobsian choice.

We already have a Primary song about it. http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=637e1b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=7b6f2ddde9c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=true

In a way other non LDS Christians already have a song about becoming a God too.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=i+want+to+be+like+jesus&qpvt=i+want+to+be+like+jesus&FORM=VDRE#

Edited June 24, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[cdowis]

Another question:

Would any LDS here prefer that the song say "I believe that God has a plan of us… and that that plan involves me becoming a God too."

Obviously, LDS would prefer that the missionary sing something a little more palatable for Gentile tastes (or even better, encourage the audience to seek out real Mormon missionaries to find out the "milk" version of what LDS believe).

But given the choice between a missionary singing that he believes God's plan involves him "getting his own planet", or him "becoming a God too", which would you choose?

I hope the large building has air conditioning. There is alot of hot air coming from that building.

[cinepro]

cinepro:

What a Hobsian choice.

We already have a Primary song about it. http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=637e1b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=7b6f2ddde9c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=true

In a way other non LDS Christians already have a song about becoming a God too.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=i+want+to+be+like+jesus&qpvt=i+want+to+be+like+jesus&FORM=VDRE#

Just so I'm clear, you are saying that songs about "being like Jesus" by loving others and being kind are referring to the doctrine "As God is, man may become"?

[KevinG]

But given the choice between a missionary singing that he believes God's plan involves him "getting his own planet", or him "becoming a God too", which would you choose?

I'd rather start with "becoming a join heir with Christ" then move on to what that implies.

Let's be serious- when someone says "you guys believe you are getting your own planet" it usually isn't an attempt to gain mutual understanding about our doctrines.

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

As man is frequently neither loving of others nor being kind. It's a good place to begin.

[TAO]

That's one way to say it.

Yeah. It's the way I like to do it because it lets people understand the religion much better =).

The other would be "I believe that God has a plan of us… and that that plan involves me getting my own planet."

As Nathair said, I don't know why people keep limiting to 'planet'. XD

But anyways, as this is not really what exaltation is about (it's about living with your spouse eternally and having a continuation of your seed), I don't see the need to talk about it much really. As DaddyG says, joint heirs with Christ is alot more than this, alot more important than this =).

Yah, those are my feelings about it, I guess =).

Best Wishes,

TAO