Marrying For Eternity "Either In This Life Or In The Next"

[sjdawg]

So don't read it. "Change the channel", read a different thread, don't plunk down your money for this movie.

I see him as an enemy of all I hold sacred. Of course he could repent and I pray he does. He has no respect for us and doesn't even attempt to cover that.

As long as he holds himself out to oppose the church, I will oppose him. It isn't personal at all- and I don't blame him for trying to get us "saved" since he believes he is doing something to help us. Good for him!

But frankly I can't think of a stupider strategy in trying to convert someone is to attack their present beliefs, and do things on a website which those I am trying to convert find highly offensive.

Can you think of a stupider strategy?

I think it is my duty to oppose him as much as I have time to do so.

Very Noble

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

You are one of the few whose responses so far seems worthy of a reply. You wrote:

In Mormonism it is taught that if you live a life that is worthy of exaltation, if for whatever reason you die without being sealed to a worthy spouse, that you will have that opportunity provided for you in the next life, so that you will not suffer any losses as a consequence through no fault of your own. Exactly how that is accomplished is not important here. God is omnipotent, and is able to fulfil His promises in ways that we may not always understand. The main thing is that God is a fair and just God, and is an omnipotent God, and has it worked out so that you will not suffer any losses in the eternal worlds as a result of such anomalies in mortality, provided that you keep your side of the bargain. That I believe is the meaning of the relevant change in the Gospel Principles manual.

I can understand what you say as far as it goes, but it doesn't address the question I raised. Can and will God provide salvation to the celestial kingdom and the opportunity to exaltation for worthy single people with, or without, an actual temple ritual of eternal marriage? If the single person dies without ever being married in the temple, it seems you have four possible answers:

(1) the single person has no chance for exaltation;

(2) the single person can be exalted without eternal marriage;

(3) the single person can have eternal marriage and thus attain exaltation, but without a temple ceremony; or

(4) the single person can have eternal marriage and thus attain exaltation, but for this to happen a temple ceremony of eternal marriage must be performed by proxy on his or her behalf.

You have ruled out (1), so my question to you is, which of the remaining three possibilities do you think is right? And if you think (4) is correct, my follow-up question is whether Mormons regularly perform proxy eternal marriages for the dead and if so how long have they regularly performed such rites?

[Rob Bowman]

nackhadlow,

Thanks for your usual respectful and thoughtful reply. See my reply to zerinus. Occasional historical instances of eternal marriage rituals in which a living Mormon undergoes the ritual for himself and his departed wife are irrelevant to my question, which has to do primarily with the billions of people who lived and died before temple marriages existed. Can any of them be exalted? If so, do they need eternal marriage? If so, do they need to have their eternal marriage sealed in a temple ritual by proxy?

Actually, I'm pretty sure some sealings to dead spouses were done in Nauvoo. I believe Hyrum Smith specifically was sealed to his dead first wife while he was still alive in Nauvoo.

EDIT: Perhaps I'm mistaken. I was basing that off of this comment from Rough Stone Rolling, p. 495

"Knowing her basic faith, Hyrum thought Joseph should show Emma a written revelation on plural marriage. Hyrum had been reluctant to accept the principle himself until Brigham Young explained that it allowed him to be married to both Jerusha Barden, his deceased first wife, and to Mary Fielding, his current spouse. At the same time, he had the spiritual confirmation so many others reported."

I see that's actually kind of vague.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Occasional historical instances of eternal marriage rituals in which a living Mormon undergoes the ritual for himself and his departed wife are irrelevant to my question,

That seems to happen quite a bit.

Bold by me.

which has to do primarily with the billions of people who lived and died before temple marriages existed.

This is similar to the question that is posed to many EV's about the idea that the guy living in outer Mongolia in 400BC is damned because he has never heard of Chris. To which the most popular thing I have heard is "God will sort it out".

Can any of them be exalted?

Yes.

If so, do they need eternal marriage?

Yes.

If so, do they need to have their eternal marriage sealed in a temple ritual by proxy?

Yes.

I hope this helps. This seems to be one of the easier (I hope) posts to answer.

Hopefully my remarks are not irrelevant or that I don't understand your questions.

Keep in mind I am being more playful with my comments. Don't read to much in the some of them. The answer to your questions are serious though.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[David T]

my follow-up question is whether Mormons regularly perform proxy eternal marriages for the dead and if so how long have they regularly performed such rites?

I'm not sure of the details as to when they began to be 'regularly' performed en masse (probably early Utah), but they certainly are regularly and substantially performed today. Just as Endowment sessions occur in which patrons participate as a proxy, many patrons will also choose to participate in proxy Initiatory and Sealing sessions.

[thesometimesaint]

Rob Bowman:

First an foremost we believe that no righteous desire of our hearts will be denied though no fault of our own.

In Mormonism there are no single individuals in the upper reach of the Celestial Kingdom. Those that would have been married, but had no opportunity to be, will be given that opportunity in the Millennium.

[mfbukowski]

Matt 23:

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Matthew 23:

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Sigh. Maybe I'm naive - no, I'm certainly naive - but the OP wasn't quite disrespectful. I know Bowman has a history with you guys, but the negativity aimed at him is mentally draining to read.

Very Noble

friendly

Nothing I said was even close to what the savior said.

Edited June 7, 2011 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

This is similar to the question that is posed to many EV's about the idea that the guy living in outer Mongolia in 400BC is damned because he has never heard of Chris. To which the most popular thing I have heard is "God will sort it out".

Exactly precisely nailed it!

[David T]

I view the ordinance of Eternal Marriage as a powerful physical symbol and reminder of Christ and His Bride, the Church, eternally united - and as a poignant reminder of Christ's loving relationship to His Bride (of which we all make up a part).

Ephesians 5:25-32

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Aside from any metaphysical effect the ordinance may have, I think the opportunity to ritually participate in this and to ponder on the relationship and covenant responsibilities alone are extremely powerful, and humbling. The opportunity to stand as proxy gives each member unlimited opportunities to re-live this experience and the ritual commitment - both to their spouses and to the Savior - in a powerful symbolic way.

Edited June 7, 2011 by nackhadlow

[LeSellers]

my follow-up question is whether Mormons regularly perform proxy eternal marriages for the dead and if so how long have they regularly performed such rites?

I'm not sure of the details as to when they began to be 'regularly' performed en masse (probably early Utah), but they certainly are regularly and substantially performed today. Just as Endowment sessions occur in which patrons participate as a proxy, many patrons will also choose to participate in proxy Initiatory and Sealing sessions.

The first question Bowman asked colors the understanding I have of the second one.

I could easily be mistaken, but I think he is asking whether we regularly choose some unmarried woman and randomly seal her to an unmarried (dead or living?) man.

If that is his question, the answer is that we do not do this (absent very rare cicumstances, like a couple, hours before their temple wedding, is killed in an automobile crash—even then ...). Each person in this situation will have an opportunity to choose the one to whom he will be sealed. We will do it foir them in the millennium, but it will be done for them since sealings, like baptisms are earthly ordinances with eternal consequences. The dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. But we, acting for them, can overcome the obstacle that death threw across their paths.

Lehi

Edited June 7, 2011 by LeSellers

[zerinus]

I can understand what you say as far as it goes, but it doesn't address the question I raised. Can and will God provide salvation to the celestial kingdom and the opportunity to exaltation for worthy single people with, or without, an actual temple ritual of eternal marriage? If the single person dies without ever being married in the temple, it seems you have four possible answers:

* * *

Not necessarily. There may be other options that God has not revealed to us yet. You want to put God in a box, or place limitations on His power. In D&C 29:30 the Lord has said: "But remember that all my judgments are not given unto men; . . ." God is not obliged to tell us everything; and He never loses the capacity to surprise us. For example, Joseph Smith received a pleasant surprise when he learned through a vision that his brother Alvin, who had died before the restoration of the gospel, and consequently had not received baptism and any of the other ordinances of the gospel, had been saved in the celestial kingdom (D&C 137:5-8 ). We don't try to put God in a box. We just trust Him that he has the power to fulfil all his promises, even though we may not always understand how.

[Rob Bowman]

Mola,

You wrote:

This is similar to the question that is posed to many EV's about the idea that the guy living in outer Mongolia in 400BC is damned because he has never heard of Chris. To which the most popular thing I have heard is "God will sort it out".

Would that be Chris Rock, Chris Matthews, Chris Wallace, or some other Chris?

Evangelical theology's claim that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation is not comparable to the Mormon claim that its physical ordinances are mandatory for salvation or exaltation. The guy living in outer Mongolia in 400 BC is damned, if he is damned, because he was a sinner, not because he happened never to have heard of Christ. No one will be condemned for not hearing of Christ; all who are condemned will be condemned for sins they knowingly and willfully committed. God is just. Now, if God has some way for that Mongolian to be saved even though he lived before Christ came and never heard the gospel, that is indeed God's business, but that possibility is outside the revealed gospel in the Bible. Mormonism, on the other hand, claims to have the answer to how people who never heard of the Mormon religion can obtain all of its promised blessings, including exaltation: proxy rituals performed in the temple. So my question was simple: does this include proxy eternal marriages? The answers I have been getting have not all been in agreement. You answered yes, but others have said that Mormons do not perform proxy marriages in the temple.

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

You wrote:

Not necessarily. There may be other options that God has not revealed to us yet. You want to put God in a box, or place limitations on His power. In D&C 29:30 the Lord has said: "But remember that all my judgments are not given unto men; . . ." God is not obliged to tell us everything; and He never loses the capacity to surprise us. For example, Joseph Smith received a pleasant surprise when he learned through a vision that his brother Alvin, who had died before the restoration of the gospel, and consequently had not received baptism and any of the other ordinances of the gospel, had been saved in the celestial kingdom (D&C 137:5-8 ). We don't try to put God in a box. We just trust Him that he has the power to fulfil all his promises, even though we may not always understand how.

Fine. I'm just suggesting that you take God out of the box that says "No exaltation apart from ordinances performed in the temple." That position seems to have been quietly qualified away, so why not just embrace the alternative, which is that the dead don't need proxy ordinances performed on their behalf?

[Rob Bowman]

thesometimesaint,

You wrote:

First an foremost we believe that no righteous desire of our hearts will be denied though no fault of our own.

Taking that affirmation to its logical conclusion would seem to lead to the position that no one needs to have proxy rituals performed on their behalf.

You wrote:

In Mormonism there are no single individuals in the upper reach of the Celestial Kingdom. Those that would have been married, but had no opportunity to be, will be given that opportunity in the Millennium.

You mean, they will be raised from the dead to live on the earth again and given an opportunity to pair up and go through the temple ceremonies on their own behalf?

[LeSellers]

The answers I have been getting have not all been in agreement. You answered yes, but others have said that Mormons do not perform proxy marriages in the temple.

No one has said we do not perform proxy sealings in the Temple. Anyone who's been a Temple-attending Saint for any length of time has done them. It's a huge part, the crux, even, of the whole "turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children" thing. It's why there are Temples to a very great extent.

Where do you think you read that?

Lehi

[zerinus]

Occasional historical instances of eternal marriage rituals in which a living Mormon undergoes the ritual for himself and his departed wife are irrelevant to my question, which has to do primarily with the billions of people who lived and died before temple marriages existed. Can any of them be exalted?

Yes.

If so, do they need eternal marriage?

Almost certainly yes.

If so, do they need to have their eternal marriage sealed in a temple ritual by proxy?

Not necessarily in this world. God may have ways of doing it in the resurrection or beyond. For example, in the Doctrine and Covenants we learn that King David lost his exaltation as a result of his great transgression, and consequently the wives to whom he had been sealed; and that God gave his wives to someone else (D&C 132:39). But it doesn't say how it was done. Was it done in this life, or after they were dead, or in the resurrection? It doesn't say. We just trust Him that he has the power to fulfil His promises. We don't ask how, when He hasn't chosen to tell us how.

Before any temples were built the Lord allowed proxy ordinances to be performed outside of the temple until a temple was completed; afterwards it could only be done in the temple. God is more flexible than you want to portray Him. Only a foolish person tries to put limitations on what God can and cannot do.

[zerinus]

Fine. I'm just suggesting that you take God out of the box that says "No exaltation apart from ordinances performed in the temple." That position seems to have been quietly qualified away, so why not just embrace the alternative, which is that the dead don't need proxy ordinances performed on their behalf?

Because your either/or scenario is not a valid one. God has told us that those ordinances are necessary when we have access to them. If we wilfully reject them when we have the option to receive them, we don't get a second chance. The alternatives apply to those who did not have that opportunity in the first place. It does not apply to those who had the opportunity, but chose not to take the offer through unbelief.

[David T]

Mola,

You wrote:

Would that be Chris Rock, Chris Matthews, Chris Wallace, or some other Chris?

Evangelical theology's claim that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation is not comparable to the Mormon claim that its physical ordinances are mandatory for salvation or exaltation. The guy living in outer Mongolia in 400 BC is damned, if he is damned, because he was a sinner, not because he happened never to have heard of Christ. No one will be condemned for not hearing of Christ; all who are condemned will be condemned for sins they knowingly and willfully committed. God is just. Now, if God has some way for that Mongolian to be saved even though he lived before Christ came and never heard the gospel, that is indeed God's business, but that possibility is outside the revealed gospel in the Bible. Mormonism, on the other hand, claims to have the answer to how people who never heard of the Mormon religion can obtain all of its promised blessings, including exaltation: proxy rituals performed in the temple. So my question was simple: does this include proxy eternal marriages? The answers I have been getting have not all been in agreement. You answered yes, but others have said that Mormons do not perform proxy marriages in the temple.

Rob, I'm starting another thread to address a comment you made here.

Edited June 7, 2011 by nackhadlow

[DH]

Because your either/or scenario is not a valid one. God has told us that those ordinances are necessary when we have access to them. If we wilfully reject them when we have the option to receive them, we don't get a second chance. The alternatives apply to those who did not have that opportunity in the first place. It does not apply to those who had the opportunity, but chose not to take the offer through unbelief.

Even if the ordinances are necessary, where does it say that there is no second chance? Isn't it possible that God is merciful enough that even if a person doesn't take the opportunity to receive an ordinance the first time, he will give them another chance?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola,

but others have said that Mormons do not perform proxy marriages in the temple.

This is false, just 2 weeks ago I was in a sealing session with my wife were we were proxies for several couples to be married for time and all eternity.

I cannot speak for those that claim it does not happen and I would need further context from them, but if your story is accurate they have mis-informed you.

Chris..... lol I can't catch all of my horrendous spelling errors.

I would say that the LDS do claim to have further knowledge than the rest of Christianity but there is still much that is left to God.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[zerinus]

Even if the ordinances are necessary, where does it say that there is no second chance? Isn't it possible that God is merciful enough that even if a person doesn't take the opportunity to receive an ordinance the first time, he will give them another chance?

Again, God would be the judge of that, not us. We only declare the law as it has been revealed. We don't deal with the exceptions. It may be that not everyone who rejects it in this life will not get a second chance in the next; but that would not be the rule, it would be the exception. The Lord has made it clear in modern revelation that everyone will not make it to the celestial kingdom; and has told us who they are who won't. It would be a very foolish person indeed who would take his chances with what God has revealed.

[thesometimesaint]

Rob Bowman:

"Taking that affirmation to its logical conclusion would seem to lead to the position that no one needs to have proxy rituals performed on their behalf".

Not what I said. Since not all will hear, understand fully the Gospel in this life, there is still a need for them to. God will not hold us responsible for something we had not control over.

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

Romans 4:15

[Deborah]

I think several of us have made the point that proxy sealings will be done throughout the millennium for those who did not have the opportunity to be sealed in this life. But for some reason some keep acting like no point was made except the one they want to believe.

[PacMan]

Rob:

(4) the single person can have eternal marriage and thus attain exaltation, but for this to happen a temple ceremony of eternal marriage must be performed by proxy on his or her behalf.

You have ruled out (1), so my question to you is, which of the remaining three possibilities do you think is right? And if you think (4) is correct, my follow-up question is whether Mormons regularly perform proxy eternal marriages for the dead and if so how long have they regularly performed such rites?

#4. Back in the day, it was a practice to seal woman to leaders of the church after they had both died (regardless of their relationship on earth) to assure they had their ordinances done. That's no longer the case, but the principle is still maintained. At whatever point an ordinance needs to be done by proxy and the participants are unknown, and some point it will be made known; a.k.a. what I refer to as the millennium catch-all.

PacMan

[PacMan]

My inadvertent reference to polyandry was...accidental. Please turn "woman" into "women."

Cheers,

PacMan