Marrying For Eternity "Either In This Life Or In The Next"

[Vance]

Try it this way:

Oh, sure, just TOTALLY ignore the all important conjunction "and" as well as the rest of the sentence.

Come on. The clear implication is that 'the first' did not marry her for the duration of mortal life only. Otherwise the use of 'except the first' makes no sense.

Oh, sure, just TOTALLY ignore the all important conjunction "and" as well as the rest of the sentence.

If someone says "everyone except for Tim didn't get into the pool", would it not be the logical assumption that the intent is to say that Tim did get into the pool?"

A false analogy.

Corrected,

If someone says "everyone except for Tim got into the pool and played tag", would it not be the logical assumption that the intent is to say that Tim didn't get into the pool AND play tag?"

Tim might have gotten into the pool, or he might have played tag, but he did NOT do both.

... and then your reference. So yes. It was in private.

And recorded for all to see.

[Mars]

I agree with nackhadlow re: the Sadducees and the Lord. They were just being dorks with a ridiculously constructed 'what-if' just to try and show they were right and that the resurrection couldn't exist.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance quoted Joseph Smith in History of the Church as follows:

"The Prophet Joseph taught this principles: “Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life . . . continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory.” Smith, History of the Church, 5:391.

This statement makes an important point that everyone seems to be overlooking. Vance appears to have copied his quotation from an online version of an article by Douglas Brinley, "Joseph Smith's Contribution to Understanding the Doctrine of Eternal Marriage." That article does not quote History of the Church correctly. Here is the text of Joseph Smith's statement:

"Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory." History of the Church 5:391; also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 300-301.

Now, twice in the above statement, Joseph Smith asserted that marriage for eternity must be entered in this life in order to have children after the resurrection in the celestial glory: ""Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory" (emphasis added).

This would seem to be a rather explicit statement that those who do not get married for eternity while still living in this mortal probationary life will miss out on something rather important in the LDS hope, namely, they will miss out on being able to have children in the celestial kingdom.

I am not here questioning that the LDS Church later began performing some proxy rites of marriage for eternity. I am asking, first, if the above passage does not raise some question about the general idea of performing such rites, and second, if there is any evidence that Joseph Smith taught the possibility of proxy temple marriages for the dead.

[Rob Bowman]

I appreciate all of the comments confirming that in LDS doctrine one cannot be exalted without being married for eternity. I do understand that this is the official LDS position, but was glad to get confirmation from various individuals here that this is indeed a principle without exception.

[mfbukowski]

Mr Bowman

In both this thread and in the other you are STILL missing a major feature of the entire Mormon enterprise and that is that ALL will have an opportunity to be "saved" (exalted) in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom REGARDLESS of the limited opportunities available to some due to life's circumstances.

Anything less than this would not be just.

It appears you are still searching for loopholes and "gotchas" which would be irrelevant even if you found one.

[Rob Bowman]

Mr. Bukowski,

You wrote:

Mr Bowman

In both this thread and in the other you are STILL missing a major feature of the entire Mormon enterprise and that is that ALL will have an opportunity to be "saved" (exalted) in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom REGARDLESS of the limited opportunities available to some due to life's circumstances.

Anything less than this would not be just.

It appears you are still searching for loopholes and "gotchas" which would be irrelevant even if you found one.

I am not "missing" the idea that everyone will have an opportunity to be exalted in the highest level of the celestial kingdom. You are missing, or more accurately avoiding, my question. I am asking someone here to explain Joseph's statement in 1843, which I was not even the first in this thread to quote. How is his statement consistent with this principle of universal opportunity for exaltation that you assert is demanded by justice? And can you provide a statement from Joseph Smith asserting that every individual who has ever lived will have an opportunity to be exalted in the highest level of the celestial kingdom? If not, is this a belief revealed later through another prophet, or is it simply a deduction for which you have no authoritative revelation?

[thesometimesaint]

Rob:

D&C 132

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This would seem to be a rather explicit statement that those who do not get married for eternity while still living in this mortal probationary life will miss out on something rather important in the LDS hope, namely, they will miss out on being able to have children in the celestial kingdom.

I would need more context and info about the quotes. I have a feeling that he was specifically talking about people who are LDS and not speaking generally. And I will state that even if I take the quotes at face value scripture trumps what he said. and the scriptures are quite clear on the matter.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[LeSellers]

I would need more context and info about the quotes. I have a feeling that he was specifically talking about people who are LDS and not speaking generally. And I will state that even if I take the quotes at face value scripture trumps what he said. and the scriptures are quite clear on the matter.

The timing may also be important.

Joseph, like Jesus, received "grace for grace", and did not understand everything at once.

The idea of sealings (including eternal marriage) was not firmly fixed in his mind at the beginning, nor was that of proxy work for the dead. The concept of sealing living spouses to each other was one thing he'd need to grasp more firmly before that of sealing dead spouses, whether they were LDS or not, civilly married or not.

Lehi

Edited June 14, 2011 by LeSellers

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The timing may also be important.

Joseph, like Jesus, received "grace for grace", and did not understand everything at once.

The idea of sealings (including eternal marriage) was not firmly fixed in his mind at the beginning, nor was that of proxy work for the dead. The concept of sealing living spouses to each other was one thing he'd need to grasp more firmly before that of sealing dead spouses, whether they were LDS or not, civilly married or not.

Lehi

Right, I am willing to bet that teh comments that Rob posted were made before the entries in D&C.

And of course I will repeat what I stated above "scripture trumps what he said. and the scriptures are quite clear on the matter."

So, we win no matter what on this issue. Lol.

[LeSellers]

Right, I am willing to bet that teh comments that Rob posted were made before the entries in D&C.

I know that volume V of The History of the Church was long before anything on proxy work.

Lehi

[mfbukowski]

I am not "missing" the idea that everyone will have an opportunity to be exalted in the highest level of the celestial kingdom. You are missing, or more accurately avoiding, my question. I am asking someone here to explain Joseph's statement in 1843, which I was not even the first in this thread to quote. How is his statement consistent with this principle of universal opportunity for exaltation that you assert is demanded by justice? And can you provide a statement from Joseph Smith asserting that every individual who has ever lived will have an opportunity to be exalted in the highest level of the celestial kingdom? If not, is this a belief revealed later through another prophet, or is it simply a deduction for which you have no authoritative revelation?

I am rather surprised you would ask such a question.

I am quoting this in total because it seems that you are unfamiliar with some other concepts here.

It's totally clear- note especially verse 34 and verse 58:

The Doctrine and Covenants, 138A vision given to President Joseph F. Smith in Salt Lake City, Utah, on 3 October 1918. In his opening address at the 89th Semiannual General Conference of the Church, on 4 October 1918, President Smith declared that he had received several divine communications during the previous months. One of these, concerning the Savior’s visit to the spirits of the dead while his body was in the tomb, President Smith had received the previous day. It was written immediately following the close of the conference. On 31 October 1918, it was submitted to the counselors in the First Presidency, the Council of the Twelve, and the Patriarch, and it was unanimously accepted by them.1–10, President Joseph F. Smith ponders upon the writings of Peter and our Lord’s visit to the spirit world; 11–24, President Smith sees the righteous dead assembled in paradise and Christ’s ministry among them; 25–37, He sees how the preaching of the gospel was organized among the spirits; 38–52, He sees Adam, Eve, and many of the holy prophets in the spirit world who considered their spirit state before their resurrection as a bondage; 53–60, The righteous dead of this day continue their labors in the world of spirits.

1On the third of October, in the year nineteen hundred and eighteen, I sat in my room ^apondering over the scriptures;

2And ^areflecting upon the great ^batoning ^csacrifice that was made by the Son of God, for the ^dredemption of the world;

3And the great and wonderful ^alove made manifest by the Father and the Son in the coming of the ^bRedeemer into the world;

4That through his ^aatonement, and by ^bobedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved.

5While I was thus engaged, my mind reverted to the writings of the apostle Peter, to the ^aprimitive saints scattered abroad throughout ^bPontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, and other parts of Asia, where the gospel had been ^cpreached after the crucifixion of the Lord.

6I opened the Bible and read the third and fourth chapters of the first epistle of ^aPeter, and as I read I was greatly ^bimpressed, more than I had ever been before, with the following passages:

7“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

8“By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in ^aprison;

9“Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18–20.)

10“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.)

11As I ^apondered over these things which are ^bwritten, the ^ceyes of my ^dunderstanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord ^erested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the ^fdead, both small and great.

12And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the ^ajust, who had been ^bfaithful in the ^ctestimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

13And who had offered ^asacrifice in the ^bsimilitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered ^ctribulation in their Redeemer’s ^dname.

14All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the ^ahope of a glorious ^bresurrection, through the ^cgrace of God the ^dFather and his ^eOnly Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

15I beheld that they were filled with ^ajoy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their ^bdeliverance was at hand.

16They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the ^aspirit world, to declare their ^bredemption from the ^cbands of death.

17Their sleeping ^adust was to be ^brestored unto its ^cperfect frame, ^dbone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the ^espirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of ^fjoy.

18While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their ^adeliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring ^bliberty to the ^ccaptives who had been faithful;

19And there he ^apreached to them the everlasting ^bgospel, the doctrine of the ^cresurrection and the redemption of mankind from the ^dfall, and from individual sins on conditions of ^erepentance.

20But unto the ^awicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had ^bdefiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21Neither did the ^arebellious who rejected the ^btestimonies and the warnings of the ancient ^cprophets behold his ^dpresence, nor look upon his face.

22Where these were, ^adarkness reigned, but among the righteous there was ^bpeace;

23And the saints rejoiced in their ^aredemption, and bowed the ^bknee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the ^cchains of ^dhell.

24Their countenances ^ashone, and the ^bradiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they ^csang praises unto his holy name.

25I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ^aministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to ^bteach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance;

26And yet, notwithstanding his mighty works, and miracles, and proclamation of the truth, in great ^apower and authority, there were but ^bfew who hearkened to his voice, and rejoiced in his presence, and received salvation at his hands.

27But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the ^abrief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection;

28And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the ^aspirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding ^aquickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the ^bwicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30But behold, from among the righteous, he ^aorganized his forces and appointed ^bmessengers, ^cclothed with power and authority, and ^dcommissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in ^edarkness, even to ^fall the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the ^aacceptable day of the Lord and proclaim ^bliberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would ^crepent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32Thus was the gospel preached to those who had ^adied in their sins, without a ^bknowledge of the truth, or in ^ctransgression, having ^drejected the prophets.

33These were taught ^afaith in God, repentance from sin, ^bvicarious baptism for the ^cremission of sins, the ^dgift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be ^ajudged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the ^asacrifice of the Son of God upon the ^bcross.

36Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of ^aspirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the ^bprophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

37That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their ^arebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

38Among the great and ^amighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father ^bAdam, the ^cAncient of Days and father of all,

39And our glorious ^aMother ^bEve, with many of her faithful ^cdaughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God.

40^aAbel, the first ^bmartyr, was there, and his brother ^cSeth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express ^dimage of his father, Adam.

41^aNoah, who gave warning of the flood; ^bShem, the great ^chigh priest; ^dAbraham, the father of the faithful; ^eIsaac, ^fJacob, and Moses, the great ^glaw-giver of Israel;

42And ^aIsaiah, who declared by prophecy that the Redeemer was anointed to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the ^bcaptives, and the opening of the ^cprison to them that were bound, were also there.

43Moreover, Ezekiel, who was shown in vision the great valley of ^adry bones, which were to be ^bclothed upon with flesh, to come forth again in the resurrection of the dead, living souls;

44Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the ^akingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;

45^aElias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration;

46And ^aMalachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of ^bElijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful ^cday of the Lord—were also there.

47The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the ^ahearts of the children the promises made to their fathers,

48Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the ^atemples of the Lord in the ^bdispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the ^csealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.

49All these and many more, even the ^aprophets who dwelt among the Nephites and ^btestified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance,

50For the ^adead had looked upon the long absence of their ^bspirits from their bodies as a ^cbondage.

51These the Lord taught, and gave them ^apower to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with ^bimmortality and eternal life,

52And continue thenceforth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all ^ablessings which were held in reserve for them that love him.

53The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice ^aspirits who were ^breserved to come forth in the ^cfulness of times to take part in laying the ^dfoundations of the great latter-day work,

54Including the building of the ^atemples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the ^bdead, were also in the spirit world.

55I observed that they were also among the ^anoble and great ones who were ^bchosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.

56Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first ^alessons in the world of spirits and were ^bprepared to come forth in the due ^ctime of the Lord to labor in his ^dvineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

57I beheld that the faithful ^aelders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the ^bpreaching of the ^cgospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the ^dspirits of the dead.

58The dead who ^arepent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ^bordinances of the house of God,

59And after they have paid the ^apenalty of their transgressions, and are ^bwashed clean, shall receive a ^creward according to their ^dworks, for they are heirs of salvation.

60Thus was the ^avision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this ^brecord is ^ctrue, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.

Edited June 14, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Rob Bowman]

saint,

You wrote:

Rob:

D&C 132

Thanks, but I am of course aware of the passage. Can you be more specific as to what you think this passage shows and where exactly it says it?

[Rob Bowman]

Mola,

You wrote:

I would need more context and info about the quotes. I have a feeling that he was specifically talking about people who are LDS and not speaking generally. And I will state that even if I take the quotes at face value scripture trumps what he said. and the scriptures are quite clear on the matter.

What scriptures?

[Rob Bowman]

Lehi,

You wrote:

The timing may also be important.

Joseph, like Jesus, received "grace for grace", and did not understand everything at once.

The idea of sealings (including eternal marriage) was not firmly fixed in his mind at the beginning, nor was that of proxy work for the dead. The concept of sealing living spouses to each other was one thing he'd need to grasp more firmly before that of sealing dead spouses, whether they were LDS or not, civilly married or not.

Lehi

The quote from History of the Church was from 1843. That is hardly "at the beginning" of Joseph's prophetic career. It is about a year before his death.

[Mars]

It's important to note the background to section 138, received in 1918.

President Smith had recently lost his son. 1918 marked the end of the first great War, and the world seemed to be collectively in awe at the sheer numbers of loss of life. Then throw on the staggering losses from Spanish Influenza.

It's really not far fetched to see that the question behind this pondering was "What is to be done with the millions who have died without having the saving ordinances administered to them, let alone having the chance to hear about them?"

[Rob Bowman]

Mola,

You wrote:

Right, I am willing to bet that teh comments that Rob posted were made before the entries in D&C.

The statement quoted from History of the Church is dated there May 16, 1843, and D&C 132 is dated July 12, 1843. So you would win that bet--the former came eight weeks before the latter. But what's your point? D&C 132 doesn't say anything to suggest the idea of proxy marriages for eternity.

You wrote:

And of course I will repeat what I stated above "scripture trumps what he said. and the scriptures are quite clear on the matter."

So, we win no matter what on this issue. Lol.

Again, what scripture teaches an opportunity for marriage for eternity for those who died without entering into such marriages in mortality?

Edited June 14, 2011 by Rob Bowman

[mfbukowski]

It's really not far fetched to see that the question behind this pondering was "What is to be done with the millions who have died without having the saving ordinances administered to them, let alone having the chance to hear about them?"

Yep.

That answers the OP directly.

[mfbukowski]

Again, what scripture teaches an opportunity for marriage for eternity for those who died without entering into such marriages in mortality?

Already quoted.

Also 132 speaks to the need for the endowment, of which the sealing is a part.

[LeSellers]

The quote from History of the Church was from 1843. That is hardly "at the beginning" of Joseph's prophetic career. It is about a year before his death.

I didn't claim it was from the beginning of his ministry. I said it was before the concept of proxy work for the dead. Even baptisms for the dead were not understood until 1842~43. The rest of the odinances for the dead don't get their own ink until 1918 with Joseph F. Smith in what is now Doc&Cov 137. It was not until 1877 in the St. George Temple that we even began to understand the power of these ordinances.

I further said that he didn't understand everything as soon as it was revealed to him. He had to "search it out in his mind", just as all of us do. He grew from grace to grace, no different in this than anyone else. Joseph may have understood them better than others of his day, but he didn't get the whole thing delivered on a silver platter.

Lehi

Edited June 14, 2011 by LeSellers

[Rob Bowman]

Mr. Bukowski,

You wrote:

I am rather surprised you would ask such a question.

I am quoting this in total because it seems that you are unfamiliar with some other concepts here.

I see you are continuing to be obnoxious. I am quite familiar with the material you quoted.

You wrote:

It's totally clear- note especially verse 34 and verse 58:

Not so clear on the issue at hand, I'm afraid.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. 33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, 34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.... 58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation" (D&C 138:32-34, 58-59).

There is not one word here about vicarious marriages for eternity, but only vicarious baptisms. And in any case, are you conceding, by quoting this revelation dated 1918, that Joseph Smith himself never said anything about marriages for eternity being performed for the dead?

[Rob Bowman]

Lehi,

You wrote:

I didn't claim it was from the beginning of his minstry. I said it was before the concept of proxy work for the dead. Even baptisms for the dead were not understood until 1842~43. The rest of the odinances for the dead don't get their own ink until 1918 with Joseph F. Smith in what is now Doc&Cov 137. It was not until 1877 in the St. George Temple that we even began to understand the power of these ordinances.

I further said that he didn't understand everything as soon as it was revealed to him. He had to "search it out in his mind", just as all of us do. He grew from grace to grace, no different in this than anyone else. Joseph may have understood them better than others of his day, but he didn't get the whole thing delivered on a silver platter.

So, his statement in 1843 was simply incorrect, right?

[thesometimesaint]

Rob Bowman:

So. The LDS do not have the presumption that everything was delivered all at once, even to JS.

See LDS Aricle of Faith #9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

[LeSellers]

So, his statement in 1843 was simply incorrect, right?

"Incomplete" would be more accurate.

The idea of growing from grace to grace is not a difficult one, and I know you must believe it since Jesus did. Why would it not be the case for Joseph, too?

Lehi

Edited June 14, 2011 by LeSellers

[mfbukowski]

I see you are continuing to be obnoxious. I am quite familiar with the material you quoted.

Guess again. Look at verse 48.

There is not one word here about vicarious marriages for eternity, but only vicarious baptisms. And in any case, are you conceding, by quoting this revelation dated 1918, that Joseph Smith himself never said anything about marriages for eternity being performed for the dead?

It's a little hard to be sealed to your children without being sealed to your wife.

I am not sure why you are so defensive when I am trying to help you learn the gospel so that you can be a better-informed critic. I think if you will understand the gospel, you will see its strength and perhaps - who knows?

I think clearly Joseph believed in the principle, but I really don't see why it is important if Joseph taught it specifically or not.

Why is it important to you? It doesn't matter to us!