Healings Scientific Study

[Hamba Tuhan]

Is that also why the state consumes the largest amount of internet porn?

Indubitably.

[Brian 2.0]

So no one has really answered my last question in the Original Post.

If such an experiment could be conducted, would the data show an increase in recovery rates for those who get a Priesthood blessing vs. those who do not?

[Hamba Tuhan]

So no one has really answered my last question in the Original Post.

If such an experiment could be conducted, would the data show an increase in recovery rates for those who get a Priesthood blessing vs. those who do not?

I answered your question in posts #17 and #19. You seem just to have breezed over my replies, it seems.

[Eldwynn]

I think 'God's blessings in action' in this case would be compliance with the Word of Wisdom. As current indicates, one's cancer risk increases literally with every single drink taken.

You are interpreting those findings wrong. You made it sounds like a casual drinker is increasing his risk of cancer every drink he has. The study however, looked at the risk of cancer of consuming two or more drinks PER DAY. Small amounts of alcohol (consumed in a certain way) has actually shown to DECREASE ones chance of death by 18%(as found by Giovanni et al in Italy). This has been shown to be more than Resveratrol, by the way.

[Brian 2.0]

I answered your question in posts #17 and #19. You seem just to have breezed over my replies, it seems.

I re-read your post, and correct me if I am wrong, but it seems you are saying that you can NOT change God's will through blessings, but you can tap into what God's will is and make a blessing to help handle God's will. Am I understanding you correctly?

[Eldwynn]

So no one has really answered my last question in the Original Post.

If such an experiment could be conducted, would the data show an increase in recovery rates for those who get a Priesthood blessing vs. those who do not?

You would have to do the study to find out obviously...

Clearly those that think the priesthood heals people would never put their beliefs on the line by saying they would expect a measurable effect, and would come up with loads of reasons why the study was flawed or god just doesn't work like that. It's a lot like any other strong belief without physical evidence- it can't be proven wrong no matter the evidence (September 11th anyone?).

Obviously those that reject the supernatural would not expect an effect.

By the way, prayer studies have been done, and some find an effect, some do not. I don't think I scientific study on the matter would really give any meaningful insight onto anything.

[Brian 2.0]

You would have to do the study to find out obviously...

Clearly those that think the priesthood heals people would never put their beliefs on the line by saying they would expect a measurable effect, and would come up with loads of reasons why the study was flawed or god just doesn't work like that. It's a lot like any other strong belief without physical evidence- it can't be proven wrong no matter the evidence (September 11th anyone?).

Obviously those that reject the supernatural would not expect an effect.

By the way, prayer studies have been done, and some find an effect, some do not. I don't think I scientific study on the matter would really give any meaningful insight onto anything.

Yeah. I'm not trying to ask a trick question, nor do I have a study in my back pocket that I am waiting to show. it's more of a thought experiment. And a thought experiment to show the interplay that religion and science can have when brought down to a specific tenant.

[Eldwynn]

Yeah. I'm not trying to ask a trick question, nor do I have a study in my back pocket that I am waiting to show. it's more of a thought experiment. And a thought experiment to show the interplay that religion and science can have when brought down to a specific tenant.

When I was 14 I did an experiment. Anytime I prayed for something (often, it was a prayer to find my shoes, or that the bus would be one minute late or something) I would record it in a journal. Half my prayers were normal, the other half were to Zeus. Using a basic T-test (the only statistical test I knew at 14 haha) I found that there was no significant difference. Although it wasn't the best experiment, it actually had a significant impact on me.

However, I find it is quite unconvincing to members of my family who were very much active LDS (as I was). I think the lesson is that, for many people, questions of religion have nothing to do DIRECTLY with evidence, but are personal in some way. This is just part of being human. I wasn't going to leave my religion and my entire social network because of one experiment.

Ultimately, it required me looking at the universe- with the same science that other people have access to- and concluding that I was NOT special. There is no three sided god of Triangles, just like there is no human god that cares about what I do on a day to day basis. I am but a tiny speck, on a tiny planet, orbiting a tiny star, on a (okay it's actually kind of big) galaxy that is among a sea of other galaxies. Some people can still see a theistic god in it all, despite the science. Some like Antony Flew, think it must be created. Others like Stephen Hawking (and myself) see religion as a fairy tale. No different than Roman myths were back in the day when they were the main religion.

I used to think (wrongly so) that people that were religious just didn't understand science, and if I just taught people how to be a scientist, they would abandon religion. This may in part be true (an increase in scientific understanding has obviously correlated with a decrease in worldwide religion) but, clearly, this isn't the case for everyone. For some reason many people accept religion despite it not being objectively true. I don't understand it, but I guess that is another mystery of life.

[bookofmormontruth]

The value of a priesthood blessing is in assisting people to tap into the will of God via their faith--remember that God respects our agency and will not tread on it--and in revealing that will to them, providing comfort and peace.

As I've shared in this forum before, I was as a missionary called upon to give a priesthood blessing to the grandfather of a woman whom I had earlier taught. Her family had given her endless grief over her conversion, but one of her elder sisters had relented and agreed that allowing the Elders to give a blessing couldn't hurt, so the two of of them rang us one night to let us know that they would be travelling up to the hospital the next evening for this purpose. That gave my companion and me 24 hours to prepare ourselves, and we prayed mightily and fasted in the hope that we could be instruments, not only in saving this man's life but in revealing God's power to this very non supportive family.

As we prepared, I felt the Spirit of the Lord rest upon us in a significant way, and I was fully prepared to walk into the hospital room and command the unconscious but suffering man to be made whole. I had that much faith. My companion annointed, and then it was time for me to seal the annointing. I laid my hands on the recipient's head, spoke the opening formalities, and then stopped. In a way I still can't adequately explain, I 'saw' the man's impending death and clearly understood when it would happen. I had no idea what to do next. The words I had saved up in my mind all had to do with healing, not death. What does one say to a dying man? The silence worried my companion, who started tapping his fingers on the backs of my hands to urge me to proceed. Inside, I was praying like mad: 'Father, what do you want me to do since he's going to die?'

Then the inspiration came. I blessed him that he would pass away peacefully, surrounded by his loving family--all of whom lived about 300km away--and that he would be free from the agonising pain he'd been experiencing up til that time.

When we'd finished, the four of us stepped out into the corridor, and the non-member sister asked, 'What the hell was that? N---- told me that you were going to heal him. Instead you blessed him that he'd die peacefully.' I tried to explain something about the will of God, but it was awkward. Then her demeanour changed, and she asked, 'When is he going to die?' For some reason, she thought I'd know that--in retrospect, I'm still impressed by her trust!--and, miraculously, I did. I told them that they had exactly one week and encouraged them to gather the family and get them to the hospital on the appointed day.

Amazingly, the entire family responded to this request and travelled up to the hospital to be there the following week. As they surrounded the bed of their loved one, he passed away peacefully as promised. The member granddaughter rang to tell us...and to inform us that the nurses had said that they'd stopped the morphine injections the night we'd been there because her grandfather had stopped writhing in pain. He was still unconscious when he passed away, but he was comfortable and at peace.

The blessing my companion and I gave in no way altered the will of God, but it did reveal it and connect people with it, and THAT was a tremendous blessing to everyone involved. I talked to the member granddaughter just a few months ago. After many years, none of her family members have ever become members of the Church, but they all ceased giving her grief over her choice to become a Latter-day Saint. My companion and I were even invited to the funeral and treated as special guests of honour. In the end, all of our righteous desires were granted, but they were granted according to the Lord's wisdom, tailored to this specific situation.

Loved the missionary story! Thank you for sharing!

[bookofmormontruth]

Is that also why the state consumes the largest amount of internet porn?

Disappointing, I would have thought your "education" would have helped you analyze the so called "Harvard study" (more like a biased opinion) to find how blatantly "skewed" it was.

The author showed no proof of a direct correlation and even admits to "adjusting" his data. And to top it off his citations are from newspapers, magazines, books and his "own blog" - how scholarly of him! At least the "study" and conclusion were debunked by the Wall Street Journal, they at least had some sense in them.

But hey, it is easy to believe anything that would shed bad light on the Lord's Church so I understand.

[Hamba Tuhan]

You are interpreting those findings wrong. You made it sounds like a casual drinker is increasing his risk of cancer every drink he has.

In conclusion, alcohol is one of the most well established causes of cancer and causes a considerable burden of disease in terms of both mortality and morbidity. With respect to cancer, alcohol is a cause of cancers of the upper-aero digestive tract, breast, colorectum, liver and stomach. The effect of alcohol on cancer risk is dose dependent and it is not possible to establish a level of consumption below which there is no increase in risk with respect to cancer.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I re-read your post, and correct me if I am wrong, but it seems you are saying that you can NOT change God's will through blessings, but you can tap into what God's will is and make a blessing to help handle God's will. Am I understanding you correctly?

Correct, though I might say it's more about revealing than handling.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Clearly those that think the priesthood heals people would never put their beliefs on the line by saying they would expect a measurable effect, and would come up with loads of reasons why the study was flawed or god just doesn't work like that.

You're not a very good mind reader, Eldwynn. You're right that I don't think there's a valid way to do a scientific study on this topic, but that's precisely because I've put my 'beliefs on the line' repeatedly through personal exercise of the priesthood. Do you think I wasn't a bit nervous to tell a large family to travel 300km to be with someone who was supposedly going to die on a particular day? What if I had been wrong? Trust me; my beliefs were on the line.

The problem is that, having tested my beliefs, I now know something about how it all works, and I realise how impossible such a study would be. If God were some impersonal force able to be summoned against His will simply by someone calling upon Him and equally compelled to grant the summoner whatever s/he might then request, we'd have something we could study. We'd also have ourselves a Middle Eastern jinn in a bottle, not the Father of us all.

[Eldwynn]

Disappointing, I would have thought your "education" would have helped you analyze the so called "Harvard study" (more like a biased opinion) to find how blatantly "skewed" it was.

The author showed no proof of a direct correlation and even admits to "adjusting" his data. And to top it off his citations are from newspapers, magazines, books and his "own blog" - how scholarly of him! At least the "study" and conclusion were debunked by the Wall Street Journal, they at least had some sense in them.

But hey, it is easy to believe anything that would shed bad light on the Lord's Church so I understand.

Oh the irony. I was poking fun at the conclusions that were drawn from the quote that I referenced. Did you miss the smiley face?

Peculiar people indeed :) :) (Hopefully you get it this time).

[Hamba Tuhan]

When I was 14 I did an experiment. Anytime I prayed for something (often, it was a prayer to find my shoes, or that the bus would be one minute late or something) I would record it in a journal. Half my prayers were normal, the other half were to Zeus. Using a basic T-test (the only statistical test I knew at 14 haha) I found that there was no significant difference. Although it wasn't the best experiment, it actually had a significant impact on me.

When I was 7, I did an experiment. Anytime I asked my mum for a biscuit, I would record it in a journal. Half my requests were normal, but the other half I made whilst secretly holding onto my lucky rabbit's foot. Using a basic T-chart, I found there was no significant difference. Although it wasn't the best experiment, I concluded that my mother didn't really exist.

[Eldwynn]

It's like we don't even speak the same language. This is what you bolded:

"The effect of alcohol on cancer risk is dose dependent and it is not possible to establish a level of consumption below which there is no increase in risk with respect to cancer."

This is not only FALSE (which I showed, showing that there is good evidence that a small amount of alcohol decreases ones risk of cancer), but it was NEVER A CONCLUSION OF THE STUDY YOU CITED.

Here's a level of consumption below which there is no increase in risk with respect to cancer: 1 ML a week.

[Eldwynn]

When I was 7, I did an experiment. Anytime I asked my mum for a biscuit, I would record it in a journal. Half my requests were normal, but the other half I made whilst secretly holding onto my lucky rabbit's foot. Using a basic T-chart, I found there was no significant difference. Although it wasn't the best experiment, I concluded that my mother didn't really exist.

Missed the point again. The overarching theme of that post was that Science doesn't convince anyone that god does or does not exist. It may be a tool, but it is never the sole factor. It's the interpretation. Otherwise, everyone would agree, given that we all have access to the same scientific results.

[Hamba Tuhan]

...it was NEVER A CONCLUSION OF THE STUDY YOU CITED.

It's a direct quote from the 'Conclusion' of the report I cited.

[Hamba Tuhan]

It's the interpretation. Otherwise, everyone would agree, given that we all have access to the same scientific results.

Agreed. That and the personal experiences.

[bookofmormontruth]

Oh the irony. I was poking fun at the conclusions that were drawn from the quote that I referenced. Did you miss the smiley face?

Peculiar people indeed :) :) (Hopefully you get it this time).

Sure.

[Calm]

By stating priesthood blessings on occasion heal the sick that otherwise would not be healed you are making a statement about empirical facts that in principle could be studied scientifically. But I would not enroll people in a study. What I would do is take a look at medical records for hospitals/medical centers in heavily LDS communities. .....

This type of test in no way treats God like vending machine or assumes all LDS who get blessings will get healed. It simply asks the simply question are cure rates for LDS patients higher than cure rates for non LDS patients? If priesthood blessings on occasion truly heal the sick that otherwise would not be healed the answer to this question should be yes.

I think I would agree that this is pretty much the only type of study that could effectively be done for this question. I also agree with Hamba's position.

[Calm]

You're not a very good mind reader, Eldwynn. You're right that I don't think there's a valid way to do a scientific study on this topic, but that's precisely because I've put my 'beliefs on the line' repeatedly through personal exercise of the priesthood. Do you think I wasn't a bit nervous to tell a large family to travel 300km to be with someone who was supposedly going to die on a particular day? What if I had been wrong? Trust me; my beliefs were on the line.

The problem is that, having tested my beliefs, I now know something about how it all works, and I realise how impossible such a study would be. If God were some impersonal force able to be summoned against His will simply by someone calling upon Him and equally compelled to grant the summoner whatever s/he might then request, we'd have something we could study. We'd also have ourselves a Middle Eastern jinn in a bottle, not the Father of us all.

I've run out of plus points for your posts tonight.

[Doug the Hutt]

1. Brian 2.0, read up about the psychosomatic effects of illness on a body. Then expand your theoretical study to include all religious and irreligious groups alike. Thats the only way it would make sense.

http://en.wikipedia....omatic_medicine

2. Hamba Tuhan why did the Apostle Paul tell Timothy to drink wine for his infirmities¿

1 Timothy 5 23

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.

http://lds.org/scrip...tim/5?lang=eng#

3. As a side note, let's not forget that Phaoroh's priests could also perform miracles.

http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/ex/7?lang=eng

[cinepro]

Now you could argue God using his infinite foreknowledge knows a study like this is going to take place and will not cure those LDS who visit hospitals since he does not like being "tested" this of course is an extremely problematic position.

Why is that position more problematic than the claim that there are sick people who aren't healed only because they didn't get a priesthood blessing?

[Brian 2.0]

Thanks for all the responses.

It seems that no one has yet said that there should be a statistical advantage to recovery rates to those that have blessings.

The responses have either been along the line of "the study can't be done" or they are Hamba Tuhan's response of no (but that doesn't mean blessing have no value, just not for changing what will happen to the patient).

I appreciate Hamba Tuhan's idea, and the church does teach the principle he is talking about, but it does go beyond it to allow for blessings that would not have happened if they had not asked (Humba, you may believe this already, sorry if I misunderstand you stance):

From the Bible Dictionary:

Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work, and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings.

Ever since I've thought about this I've asked a lot about it, and they are more than willing to say and testify even that a Priesthood blessing can heal someone from something, but when I asked about the theoretical thought/science experiment, they often don't give an affirming 'yes' that there will be an advantage to the blessing data set. It seems odd to me, because they are the same question.

Perhaps it's because one is framed in a way that can, in theory, be proved to be wrong by scientific means. But that's my point in that the first statement "Priesthood Blessings can heals someone" is also a claim that can be scientifically tested (if the data can be collected).