Limited Geography Theories

[Anijen]

I realize I was a little hard on Sevenbak. The best professors never let their students take a easy way out...

Anijen

No, you weren't hard on me, nor am I studying at your feet.

After rereading my post I see that this could have been understood this way. I apologize, I did not intend to imply any type of teacher/student thing between us. If anything it is you who has made me go to my books even to purchase more books than any other poster. It is you who has encouraged me to study and in doing so I have reached many conclusions. I am greatful for your responses, we might not agree on the location of the final battle but other than that you have helped motivate me in my interests of the mound builders.

[Sevenbak]

RoseMadder:

Given the time lag from the last Nephite battle to burying the plates is plenty of time(20 years) to travel from Mesoamerica to upstate New York.

It's also plenty of time for Moroni to continue gathering records and artifacts from his civilization and securing then in the cave in hill Cumorah, as described by Brigham Young. Based on those descriptions, it's unlikely Mormon put them all there. He was traveling with a wicked army too.

[Sevenbak]

Just a slight correction Moroni had approximately 36 years between the final battle and burying of the plates.

In which time he also translated the Book of Ether, taking his account "from the twenty and four plates". I don't believe he used a previous translation, but rather the original. King Mosiah didn't translate the whole thing, because of the commandment not do make them known. He even says the words were so powerful that man could not handle them. This means Moroni had to have access to the broader library. It's also why he included sermons of his father, Christ, and other elements into the Book of Moroni.

It's another reason I believe it's the same place.

[Sevenbak]

No, not by Moroni, but by Oliver. He's the first one I know of to use the word "Cumorah" to name the drumlin in western New York.

Lehi

He also, in his masterfully published history treatise, under the direction and approval of Joseph, described the final battle in New York.

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbak:

I believe that was a vision of BY. I see no evidence that that NY drumlin could have a cave.

The BoM itself doesn't claim Moroni took large quantities of books([plates) with him.

[Sevenbak]

Been studying this a little more and some results have strengthened my view that there are no remnants of two large armies. There would have been something left behind.

We have remnants of materials Columbus left behind including some of the wreckage of the Santa Maria, which survivors used as a makeshift fort; there was not enough room on the other two ships for the return voyage. On the arrival of the second voyage they found that those who had stayed behind were killed by disease or either by the crew or the natives (Haitian) and the fort was burned down.

We can trace almost the exact route of Hernando de Soto in North America crossing over 3500 miles of territory because of what they left behind. Having said that we have yet to find any trace of an enormous army that migrated from Mesoamerica to New York and finally there is no trace of such a battle of such magnitude at the hill Cumorah in New York. No not one bit of signature of this migration or final battle has been found.

Some mounds in North America predates the Book of Mormon (even the Jaradites). In fact the oldest evidence for mound building in North America has been found at the Watson Brake site in Louisiana and dates to 5000 to 5400 years ago. To say the mound builders were a migration of a mixture of Nephites and Lamanites from the time of the Book of Mormon goes against the archaeological evidence. However incremental families or small groups could have migrated north from Mesoamerica and were assimilated into the culture is certainly within the realm of plausibility. These could have been before and after the final battle.

Lastly in no time in the entire history of the Clovis, Adena, and Hopewell people did they ever have a large population like reported in the Book of Mormon. In fact the largest population of all the mound builders (that of the Cahokia people) only reached a maximum population of 20,000 people and this was not until 600 plus years after the final battle.

Some thoughts here...

The Jaredites were not the first to live here. Mankind started here, and Adamites lived in the region before the flood, wither or not we agree it was pangea at the time. Finding older mounds, even if the dating is accurate is not a problem.

Have you read 1491, by Mann? Excellent work and scholarship that throws preconcieved ideas and notions about such a limited population on it's head.

Also, the Lamanites fighting the Nephites in a foreign land would have need of supplies, and their wars continued. People expect the final battle site to just lay there unmolested. What a great resource to the Lamanites for weapons, armor, etc. It must have been something akin to Costco!

[Sevenbak]

What cinched it for me was the supply lines involved in marching an army from meso-America to New York. An Army moves on it's stomach. You are limited by your supply lines, if you cannot get food and water to that Army in sufficient amount to sustain the movement, you end up no army due to death or desertion.

There are area's between Guatemala and New York, that I wouldn't want to have to cross on foot over an extended period of time. Add in the weather conditions, and you have a nightmarish logistical problem. Also keep in mind that these people were exploring the lands, it wasn't like they had topographical maps and grease pencils to work with. They may not have even had magnetic compasses and were still navigating by the stars (not that there is anything wrong with that).

The supply lines were entire villages and cities fleeing with the armies along the way for about 4 years, and those too weak to keep up were destroyed. And it wasn't exploring. Mormon would have known it. He visited the land southward when he was 11, and was amazed at how many buildings and people there were. His knowledge of his homeland, we can only assume was the Land Northward, would have been key in his decisions too, IMO.

[Sevenbak]

After rereading my post I see that this could have been understood this way. I apologize, I did not intend to imply any type of teacher/student thing between us. If anything it is you who has made me go to my books even to purchase more books than any other poster. It is you who has encouraged me to study and in doing so I have reached many conclusions. I am greatful for your responses, we might not agree on the location of the final battle but other than that you have helped motivate me in my interests of the mound builders.

:good:

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak:

I believe that was a vision of BY. I see no evidence that that NY drumlin could have a cave.

The BoM itself doesn't claim Moroni took large quantities of books([plates) with him.

BY describes it as an event, with Joseph and Oliver that they never talked about due to it's sacredness. He felt the time was right, and I believe it as he described it.

I agree that he didn't take large quantities of books with him, which is why the great depository in New York makes sense.

[Anijen]

The supply lines were entire villages and cities fleeing with the armies along the way for about 4 years, and those too weak to keep up were destroyed. And it wasn't exploring. Mormon would have known it. He visited the land southward when he was 11, and was amazed at how many buildings and people there were. His knowledge of his homeland, we can only assume was the Land Northward, would have been key in his decisions too, IMO.

Thanks Sevenbak. I am curious if you believe they went from Mesoamerica up to Ohio or New York, what in your opinion were the starting point and ending point? Just a general region I am not asking for a named city. Second question how do you mean "The supply lines were entire villages" How can the supply line be the people they need to supply? Or am I reading this wrong?

[Calm]

The supply lines were entire villages and cities fleeing with the armies along the way for about 4 years, and those too weak to keep up were destroyed.

So they had four years of 'food storage' (not sure what the technical term would be) when starting out and carried it with them or was it that the villages and cities had more than enough excess to feed themselves and the multitudes that came up or a combination or am I completely misunderstanding you?

[Calm]

I know someone somewhere must have done a study on needed resources for armies on the move as well as immigrating families (I assuming here that the Nephites fleeing would be a combo of soldiers and families and likely a combo of group and individual resource movement...though considering the general selfcentered attitude described by Mormon it probably was more individual than group for the families).

So how much food (assuming Mormon and others would know water resources so they wouldn't have to carry significant amounts but travel from water hole to river, etc. with only a few days at most inbetween) would be required for a four year period which included significant travel per person? Anyone know an easy site for calculating this?

[thesometimesaint]

calmoriah:

When the Mormon pioneers came to San Bernardino there were times when they measured the distance of daily travel. It was measured in negative feet.

A well trained disciplined army can do about 50 miles a day marching. However they can't keep doing it day after day.

[Calm]

calmoriah:

When the Mormon pioneers came to San Bernardino there were times when they measured the distance of daily travel. It was measured in negative feet.

Sounds like most of my days.

[LeSellers]

A well trained disciplined army can do about 50 miles a day marching. However they can't keep doing it day after day.

And they cannot do it with their "trains" (supplies) in tow, not even for one day.

Civilians always slow an army down. Women have this thing about not wanting to deliver children on the march. Children get whiny even when there is no back seat to whine from, and the more massive organization just makes everything take longer. A full army on foot would be lucky to travel 20 miles a day on good roads and that's still without civilians wanting the soldiers to feed them, house them, and dig their latrines.

That's why small units, squads and platoons, can go where larger units (even without pregnant soldiers) can, and why generals have staffs, with specially trained logistics officers. It takes seven other people to keep one soldier in the field. I don't know how many soldiers it takes to keep one person in the field.

Lehi

[bookofmormontruth]

Why only go on foot? Why not use known technology to travel on the water?

From the Yucatan to the Gulf of Mexico to the Mississippi river to the Ohio river? Pretty close to destination.

[LeSellers]

Why only go on foot? Why not use known technology to travel on the water?

From the Yucatan to the Gulf of Mexico to the Mississippi river to the Ohio river? Pretty close to destination.

Hagoth was four centuries too early.

Lehi

[Anijen]

Have you read 1491, by Mann? Excellent work and scholarship that throws preconcieved ideas and notions about such a limited population on it's head.

Yes I have the book and have read it. Could you be more precise and give a page number where Mann writes of this huge population please?

Also, the Lamanites fighting the Nephites in a foreign land would have need of supplies, and their wars continued. People expect the final battle site to just lay there unmolested. What a great resource to the Lamanites for weapons, armor, etc. It must have been something akin to Costco!

Still not a shred of evidence left behind of this all occurring.

[livy111us]

Yes I have the book and have read it. Could you be more precise and give a page number where Mann writes of this huge population please?

We have discussed this before, and the populations he mentions are the populations that were found in the Americas when the Europeans arrived. NOT, as you insinuate, a population of the Hopewell 2,000 years ago. The ancient population which Anijen refers to, was extremely sparse. Post BOM civilizations began to boom in population and technology, but again, this did not happen during BOM times but after.

[bookofmormontruth]

Hagoth was four centuries too early.

Lehi

And Nephi writing on metal plates was even earlier, yet the technology continued and was passed down.

The only reason why I thought of it was watching a recent History channel episode that showed how possibly the Vikings (before Columbus) traveled to make their presence in the heartland area of America. Then watching another program that showed how the waterways were used in the Americas before the railroad.

It just seemed waterways were used a lot more than what we even imagined.

[SkepticTheist]

-deleted-

Every time I pipe up on here, I know I'm going to regret what I post afterward, so what is the point?

Anijen, I will say this much. When you can prove the existence beyond doubt of Mesoamerican battles between two preclassic groups of people unambiguously Nephite and Lamanite that wrote in reformed Egyptian (not Mayan) with metal codicies and horse-drawn chariots and steel swords and Curleoms and Cummoms, with , then you will have some ground to stand on when you say nothing has been found with regard to battles at the NY Cumorah. When you can fill in the holes in your own datasets, then you can start talking. When I see a steel sword that you cough up from some dig, and not just an obsidian bladed thing, then you will have some ground to stand on.

[Anijen]

-deleted-

Every time I pipe up on here, I know I'm going to regret what I post afterward, so what is the point?

Anijen, I will say this much. When you can prove the existence beyond doubt of Mesoamerican battles between two preclassic groups of people unambiguously Nephite and Lamanite that wrote in reformed Egyptian (not Mayan) with metal codicies and horse-drawn chariots and steel swords and Curleoms and Cummoms, with , then you will have some ground to stand on when you say nothing has been found with regard to battles at the NY Cumorah. When you can fill in the holes in your own datasets, then you can start talking. When I see a steel sword that you cough up from some dig, and not just an obsidian bladed thing, then you will have some ground to stand on.

Fair enough, can you give those same conditions to the heartland model?

[Anijen]

The only reason I choose an LGT in Mesoamerica over the Great Lakes model is because the evidence supports it more. For example livey111 has wrote on the population differences. This is a big deal. Even at the Hopewell peak 600 years after the Book of Mormon, could not even come close to the numbers needed. Mesoamerica does. I have written about trails such an army would leave or such a migration would leave, there is no trace. There are many other reasons that make Mesoamerica is stronger but it would just be redundant.

[SkepticTheist]

Here we go again. I think you know what I was getting at by saying what I said. I wasn't seriously suggesting that in order to make a case that you need to present all of that.

Don't try to derail my point by bringing up the heartland model.

The strength of a certain model is on the best evidence it can muster in favor of its plausibility, based on the evidence that does exist.

A case for a certain model is not determined by the lack of evidence for this or that.

You continually parade the nothing has been found argument for the NY Cumorah and so forth.

In other words, you are mistreating a thing of faith that you would be defending rigorously if the tables were turned, when you defend your own thing of faith despite its lack of perfection in the archaeological dataset.

Since the NY Cumorah is not a thing of faith for you, you contemptuously dismiss it and point out its weaknesses, after the same manner that an anti holds the BOM in contempt for its lack of evidence.

Your own lack of this or that is not detrimental to your case for your own thing that is a thing of faith for you that you are trying to apologetically defend, and neither is the lack of good archaeology for the NY Cumorah region for a battle there.

In other words, your treatment of the NY Cumorah in this manner is a serious methodological problem in your treatment of that which is not your own model, based on the fact that you are dealing with things of faith, that require a different type of thinking than a thing that is secular. In other words, you need to apply the same type of treatment to the weaknesses of a NY Cumorah candidate as you do to a Mesoamerican setting weakness.

Fair enough, can you give those same conditions to the heartland model?

[SkepticTheist]

I don't know how many times I've talked about this point, but this isn't about what you think is stronger.

This is about your treatment of a candidate of another theory in a certain manner that is convenient to you because it is not your baby to defend.

This is about the fact that your own baby has its own inherent weaknesses doesn't faze you, because it is that which you have faith in.

In other words, take care with the fact that you are trashing on something of faith of other people in the same manner that others trash on that which you believe in, that if it were revealed that it was Cumorah, on that basis you would change your tune instantly and figure out some way to defend it. But since it isn't your thing of faith, its a convenient tar baby to beat on.

And I don't know how long I've talked about this, that the Book of Mormon itself says that the people came from outside the region, and that the numbers that were required WERE from Mesoamerica. But THAT would just be redundant.

The only reason I choose an LGT in Mesoamerica over the Great Lakes model is because the evidence supports it more. For example livey111 has wrote on the population differences. This is a big deal. Even at the Hopewell peak 600 years after the Book of Mormon, could not even come close to the numbers needed. Mesoamerica does. I have written about trails such an army would leave or such a migration would leave, there is no trace. There are many other reasons that make Mesoamerica is stronger but it would just be redundant.