Limited Geography Theories

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola, I can consider only the evidence submitted: a letter from Bro. Watson, a fax cover by Brent, and a fax from Carla Ogden.

There is more to that evidence thant this. I quoted it to you. Do you suppose then that part of the evidence was made up? There seems to be corroborating evidence by Linda Ogden that matches the report of the letter sent in 1993 by bro Watson. What do you make of that?

[Anijen]

Just a slight correction Moroni had approximately 36 years between the final battle and burying of the plates.

[Bob Crockett]

I am heading down a bad road because I don't believe that the hill where Mormon buried the originals is the same hill where Moroni buried the abridgment?

Yes, indeed.

Joseph Fielding Smith

“ . . . This modernist theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America , not withstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years . . .” “It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Wittmer, and others, could speak frequently of the spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact.” (Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 3, pp. 233-234.)

Marion G. Romney

"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the "hill Cumorah." (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity which occurred some twenty five centuries ago--events which brought to and end the great Jaredite nation." (October General Conference, 1975.)

Oliver Cowdery

"After describing the location of the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York, Oliver Cowdery writes in the Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835, 'At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed." (Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835.)

Bruce R. McConkie

“Both the Nephite and the Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is locatedâ?¦in the western part of the state of New York ... Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many early brethren, who were familiar with the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.” (Mormon Doctrine; pg. 174.)

James E. Talmage

On the occasion of his first visit to Joseph Smith, Moroni told of the existence of the record, which, he said, was engraved on plates of gold, at that time lying buried in the side of a hill near Joseph's home. The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York." (Articles of Faith, Ch. 14, Pg. 255-256.)

"The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York, resulting in the destruction of the Nephites as a nation, about 400 A.D. The last Nephite representative was Moroni, who, wandering for safety from place to place, daily expecting death from the victorious Lamanites, wrote the concluding parts of the Book of Mormon, and hid the record in Cumorah. It was the same Moroni who as a resurrected being, gave the records into the hands of Joseph Smith in the present dispensation." (Articles of Faith, Ch 14, Pg. 260.)

B.H. Roberts (Church historian)

"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same 'hill' marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this 'hill' was called the 'Hill Cumorah,' by the Jaredites the 'Hill Ramah'; it was that same 'hill,' in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the 'Mormon Hill,' of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York. (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277)

George Albert Smith

"We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property.....We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill." (Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, p.56)

Orson Pratt

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites." (Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)

"These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50

Anthony Ivins

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

There is a great deal of talk about the geography of the Book of Mormon. Where was the land of Zarahemla? Where was the City of Zarahemla? and other geographic matters. It does not make any difference to us. There has never been anything yet set forth that definitely settles that question. So the Church says we are just waiting until we discover the truth. All kinds of theories have been advanced. I have talked with at least half a dozen men that have found the very place where the City of Zarahemla stood, and notwithstanding the fact that they profess to be Book of Mormon students, they vary a thousand miles apart in the places they have located. We do not offer any definite solution. As you study the Book of Mormon keep these things in mind and do not make definite statements concerning things that have not been proven in advance to be true. ( Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1929, 15-16, retrieved from GospeLink 2001, CD-ROM (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2000)

Mark E Peterson

"I do not believe we should give credence to highly speculative theories about Book of Mormon geography. I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorahs, one in Central America and the other one in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central American to get the gold plates." (Mark E Peterson, CR April 1953.)

OK. Now show me your general authority statement. I'll observe that when they condemn "speculative" geography, they condemn your theory.

[RoseMadder]

That sounds so magisterially impartial that, for about a nanonsecond, I almost forgot that you were trying to give inordinate weight to a superseded missive.

Here's some additional evidence for you to consider: when the second Watson letter was first quoted by a FARMS scholar, the malice merchants reacted by accusing that scholar of having fabricated it. And yet the Carla Ogden letter, which came some time later, is a verbatim copy of the second Watson letter. Sister Ogden works in the same office as Brother Watson.

Therefore, the Ogden letter is conclusive evidence for the authenticity of the second Watson letter.

And the first Watson letter is thus superseded, and no honest critic of the Church -- if such, indeed, there be -- uses it any more.

Regards,

Pahoran

Pahoran, how can one know that the Carla Ogden fax is a verbatim copy of the Watson letter first quoted by a FARMS scholar? One cannot know that without seeing the Watson letter in question. The fact that Sister Ogden works in the same office as Brother Watson seems irrelevant.

I do not come to the same conclusion as you. I do not, with the evidence presented, see how the Ogden fax (not letter) is conclusive evidence for the authenticity of a Watson letter which I've never read, and which apparently cannot be produced.

I do not find the first Watson letter superseded in any sense, and considering the actual evidence in hand, that is a very reasonable conclusion.

The first Watson letter remains preeminent. According to it, the Brethren were aware of the nature of the inquiry and commended the inquirer. I do not see how that can be disputed without impugning the character of Brother Watson, which I presume no one wants to do. A signed letter on letterhead sent to a Bishop is vastly more authoritative than an unsigned fax sent to a FARMS scholar.

It remains that we have as evidence one letter on First Presidency Letterhead signed by the Secretary of the First President which notes the Brethren's approval of the inquiry, and then we have a fax cover from Brent, and an unsigned fax from Carla Ogden sent to a FARMS scholar which is supposedly a verbatim copy of a letter no one can produce and which no one can read.

[Hashbaz]

Just for kicks, let's read what the Book of Mormon actually says concerning which plates were buried in Cumorah (and more importantly, which ones were not buried there). Mormon 6:6 explicitly tells us:

And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

In Sum:

1. Cumorah was being overrun by Lamanites and the Nephites were about to be destroyed.

2. The Lord commanded Mormon that he not let his abridgment of the plates of Nephi fall into their hands.

3. Mormon buries all of the records in the hill Cumorah EXCEPT his abridgment of the plates of Nephi.

4. Mormon entrusts his abridgment of the plates of Nephi to his son Moroni so he can get them as far away from the Lamanites (and Cumorah) as possible.

5. (implied) Moroni, apparently unable to find a suitable hiding place anywhere else in the Western hemisphere, buries them in Cumorah anyway, in defiance of the commands of his father and the Lord.

6. Wait, what?

Mormon 6:6 makes it clear that neither Mormon nor Moroni buried the abridgment of the plates of Nephi in the Hill Cumorah where the final battle took place.

[Kevin Christensen]

For the record, we've ridden this carousel before. None of these General Authorities quote the most important authorities, the eye-witness authorities, the ones who actually knew, Mormon and Moroni. Notably, neither of the two most emphatic pronouncements provided (Smith and Peterson) address the Book of Mormon passages (that is, the eye witness testimony) and issues that raised the question in the first place.

For some reason Apostle Dallin H. Oaks didn't make the list. Perhaps because he reports being impressed with the new perspectives:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=30

And rather than stomp out such dangerous opinions from the tabernacle, Deseret Book and FARMS jointly published Sorenson's book, which is important, but not the only or last word on the topic. Rather than stomp out such dangerous opinions, President Hinkley invited FARMS to become part of BYU.

Rather than exploring the text, or for that matter, the history of the identification, or the possibility that D&C 1 might not be kidding when it says, "inasmuch as they erred, it shall be made manifest", they all cite tradition and insist without any further demonstration that received tradition MUST be right. Perhaps the notion is correct, but I think Mormonism also encourages us to look for further light and knowledge. I still haven't seen a close reading that demonstrates how the Book of Mormon descriptions of the hill and its relationships to everything else in the story could possibly fit New York. On the other hand, I'm very impressed with Larry Poulson's adjustments to Sorenson's Mesoamerican model. See here:

Nothing in the "MUST have known" list offers anything remotely comparable in terms of dealing with eye-witness information from the Book of Mormon.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Bob Crockett]

You must admit, Kevin, that that is pretty weak evidence in response to mine. The eyewitness testimony of Moroni and Mormon can only come through a prophet, and I've named mine.

[RoseMadder]

Just for kicks, let's read what the Book of Mormon actually says concerning which plates were buried in Cumorah (and more importantly, which ones were not buried there). Mormon 6:6 explicitly tells us:

In Sum:

1. Cumorah was being overrun by Lamanites and the Nephites were about to be destroyed.

2. The Lord commanded Mormon that he not let his abridgment of the plates of Nephi fall into their hands.

3. Mormon buries all of the records in the hill Cumorah EXCEPT his abridgment of the plates of Nephi.

4. Mormon entrusts his abridgment of the plates of Nephi to his son Moroni so he can get them as far away from the Lamanites (and Cumorah) as possible.

5. (implied) Moroni, apparently unable to find a suitable hiding place anywhere else in the Western hemisphere, buries them in Cumorah anyway, in defiance of the commands of his father and the Lord.

6. Wait, what?

Mormon 6:6 makes it clear that neither Mormon nor Moroni buried the abridgment of the plates of Nephi in the Hill Cumorah where the final battle took place.

I'm with you up until point four, Hashbaz.

Relying solely on the verse you provided, I don't find where you extrapolate points four, five and your conclusion.

"And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."

It is clear that the records were not to be handed over to the Lamanites. The verse doesn't say which records, only the records. So, to keep the records from the Lamanites, Mormon hid them in the hill Cumorah, where they would be safe, except for the few plates he gave to Moroni. There is no indication as to why the plates were given to Moroni, and no indication that the Lord commanded that those plates not be buried in Cumorah, the same Cumorah into which Mormon deposited the other plates.

Moroni, by burying the plates entrusted to him in the same location as his father, wasn't doing it in defiance of the Lord, at least not from the information provided in Mormon 6:6. Mormon buried records in the hill Cumorah, after being commanded not to let the records fall into the hands of the Lamanites. He put them where he thought they would be safe. Why wouldn't his son do the same with the plates entrusted to him? All the plates would be together, after all.

Brigham Young and others, as I recall, made statements to the effect that Joseph Smith had described a cave in the hill Cumorah which contained vast amounts of records. Wagonloads, was, I think, the descriptor.

[bookofmormontruth]

Why is the archeology interests of the LDS Church in MesoAmerica and not in New York?

[Pahoran]

Pahoran, how can one know that the Carla Ogden fax is a verbatim copy of the Watson letter first quoted by a FARMS scholar? One cannot know that without seeing the Watson letter in question. The fact that Sister Ogden works in the same office as Brother Watson seems irrelevant.

Because the Ogden letter says exactly, word-for-word, what the second Watson letter was previously reported as saying.

Therefore, it is one of three things:

1. It is a verbatim copy of the second Watson letter;
   
2. It is a verbatim copy of the FARMS report of the second Watson letter;
   
3. It is an independent production by a maverick employee that just coincidentally happens to exactly resemble the FARMS report of the second Watson letter.

If it is the first, then no other explanations are necessary. If it is the second, then you have to account for the fact that Sister Ogden used that text. If she was familiar with the FARMS article that quoted the letter -- and she would have to be, in order to quote from it -- then she certainly knew that it was purported to have come from Brother Watson.

And knowing that, then she would have certainly have checked it with him to see if it was kosher.

So what's your theory, Rose? As desperately as you and your ideological bedfellows wish you could pretend the second Watson letter doesn't exist, you have failed entirely to account for the existence and content of the Ogden fax. Indeed, you haven't even tried. Rather, you've attempted to dismiss it as irrelevant.

I do not come to the same conclusion as you. I do not, with the evidence presented, see how the Ogden fax (not letter) is conclusive evidence for the authenticity of a Watson letter which I've never read, and which apparently cannot be produced.

You don't? That explains a great deal.

I do not find the first Watson letter superseded in any sense, and considering the actual evidence in hand, that is a very reasonable conclusion.

Then I suggest you consult a good dictionary.

The first Watson letter remains preeminent.

Only for polemical purposes.

Regards,

Pahoran

[ELF1024]

Yes, indeed.

Joseph Fielding Smith

“ . . . This modernist theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America , not withstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years . . .” “It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Wittmer, and others, could speak frequently of the spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact.” (Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 3, pp. 233-234.)

Marion G. Romney

"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the "hill Cumorah." (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity which occurred some twenty five centuries ago--events which brought to and end the great Jaredite nation." (October General Conference, 1975.)

Oliver Cowdery

"After describing the location of the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York, Oliver Cowdery writes in the Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835, 'At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed." (Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835.)

Bruce R. McConkie

“Both the Nephite and the Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is locatedâ?¦in the western part of the state of New York ... Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many early brethren, who were familiar with the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.” (Mormon Doctrine; pg. 174.)

James E. Talmage

On the occasion of his first visit to Joseph Smith, Moroni told of the existence of the record, which, he said, was engraved on plates of gold, at that time lying buried in the side of a hill near Joseph's home. The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York." (Articles of Faith, Ch. 14, Pg. 255-256.)

"The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York, resulting in the destruction of the Nephites as a nation, about 400 A.D. The last Nephite representative was Moroni, who, wandering for safety from place to place, daily expecting death from the victorious Lamanites, wrote the concluding parts of the Book of Mormon, and hid the record in Cumorah. It was the same Moroni who as a resurrected being, gave the records into the hands of Joseph Smith in the present dispensation." (Articles of Faith, Ch 14, Pg. 260.)

B.H. Roberts (Church historian)

"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same 'hill' marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this 'hill' was called the 'Hill Cumorah,' by the Jaredites the 'Hill Ramah'; it was that same 'hill,' in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the 'Mormon Hill,' of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York. (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277)

George Albert Smith

"We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property.....We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill." (Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, p.56)

Orson Pratt

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites." (Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)

"These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50

Anthony Ivins

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

There is a great deal of talk about the geography of the Book of Mormon. Where was the land of Zarahemla? Where was the City of Zarahemla? and other geographic matters. It does not make any difference to us. There has never been anything yet set forth that definitely settles that question. So the Church says we are just waiting until we discover the truth. All kinds of theories have been advanced. I have talked with at least half a dozen men that have found the very place where the City of Zarahemla stood, and notwithstanding the fact that they profess to be Book of Mormon students, they vary a thousand miles apart in the places they have located. We do not offer any definite solution. As you study the Book of Mormon keep these things in mind and do not make definite statements concerning things that have not been proven in advance to be true. ( Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1929, 15-16, retrieved from GospeLink 2001, CD-ROM (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2000)

Mark E Peterson

"I do not believe we should give credence to highly speculative theories about Book of Mormon geography. I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorahs, one in Central America and the other one in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central American to get the gold plates." (Mark E Peterson, CR April 1953.)

OK. Now show me your general authority statement. I'll observe that when they condemn "speculative" geography, they condemn your theory.

This doesn't change the fact that currently the best evidence is in and around Guatemala.

Nor would it be the first time that a general authority or a group of general authorities made an error concerning something that IS NOT IMPORTANT FOR THE SALVATION of mankind.

As I have said before, where the Book of Mormon takes place makes no difference to the truth of the message.

Your insistence that those of us who are willing to be open minded about the location of the Book of Mormon lands; that we are some kind of apostates is distasteful, and rude. I haven't condemned you or anyone else for their opinion on where the Book of Mormon lands are. I see no reason why you should.

AOF 11 We claim the ^aprivilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the ^bdictates of our own ^cconscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them ^dworship how, where, or what they may.

[Bob Crockett]

Your insistence that those of us who are willing to be open minded about the location of the Book of Mormon lands; that we are some kind of apostates is distasteful, and rude. I haven't condemned you or anyone else for their opinion on where the Book of Mormon lands are. I see no reason why you should.

See my point 10 above.

[Questing Beast]

@RoseMadder: Twenty-plus years was plenty of time for Moroni to cart the plates to upper-state NY and rebury them. That's the usual explanation, especially by those adhering to a Mesoamerican "one Cumorah" theory. On this forum are those who support a "two Cumorah's" theory. They split on whether or not the NY Cumorah is the same hill country where the final Nephite battle took place; most, I believe, like Sorensen, take some Mesoamerican hill to be the "original" Cumorah where the Nephite extermination occurred; and the NY Cumorah to be named after that hill, probably by Moroni himself....

[Whiskeypete]

Yes, indeed.

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Me, too!" Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

I think it is clear that you, and a great number of faithful members of the Church, including all those you quoted, believe in a Hemispheric or Single Cumorah geography. What the quotes didn't show is where any of them had either done a textual analysis of the Book of Mormon and compared it to known geography, or where any of them had been commanded by the Lord to write those words, or where the unified Quorums of the Church had declared them to be doctrine.

I have never claimed that those who disagree with my interpretation of a non-essential understanding of Book of Mormon geography are "heading down a wrong path." I disagree with them, but I don't think that it will have any impact on their faith.

What I don't understand is why you consider your (and those you listed) interpretations to be in any way essential to a testimony. I still accept those you quoted as Prophets, Seers and Revelators. I still believe that the Book of Mormon is scripture.

The only reason this is an issue for me, is that I have seen many cases where someone couldn't square their interpretation of what they thought the scriptures said with what their interpretation of what they think science/secular knowledge says, and then have to make a personal choice between "religion" and "science"

I love the statement (I think by Brigham Young) that those who think that Science and Religion are in conflict, either don't understand the Science, or don't understand the religion.

Then you end up with people like those who built the "creation museum" with its depictions of Dinosaurs waving goodbye to the Ark, etc

(if it helps, replace the word Science above with Geography")

[Questing Beast]

Heh. I got caught by the bottom of the page. A LOT of you have addressed RoseMadder before I posted.

Nevertheless, most of the exchange since her post c. 21 hours ago is wasted "breath", imho. The most useful point always ends up being that where the BoM narrative takes place in the WH is immaterial to the purpose of the story. It's almost as if the confusion and the mystery were deliberately allowed to creep in. The "perpetrator" of the whole matter could only be "God". "To try the faith of my people"?

Personally the whole matter is now moot. Even IF the BoM has a basis in ancient American creation, it is no more reliable history than anything else that has passed through the hands of numerous scribes, chroniclers, redactors and editors. I accept, by this point, that human beings simply cannot let earlier writers alone. Every "rising generation" has its own agenda that transcends in importance all earlier ("ignorant") generations. Why religious people should be immune from this priggish mindset is impossible to explain. So, long before I discarded my faith in a literal historicity for the BoM, I even came up with a theory that played to this growing conviction: "Mormon" composed, and "Moroni" completed, what amounts to a historical romance. It has more akin to Homer's works than the Epistles or even the Gospels. To the final authors, their literal history only served to provide a framework upon which to compose an entirely new version of the story of rise and decline; obedience and rebellion; blessedness and cursing, etc. Their message was paramount; literal historical fact unimportant. I have to admit that such a compromise attempting to reconcile the irreconcilable never went very far: I simply could not accept such a fraud.

But all of the alternatives, other than "Joseph Smith created the book", are alike problematic and cannot be sustained by consistency....

[LeSellers]

On this forum are those who support a "two Cumorah's" theory. They split on whether or not the NY Cumorah is the same hill country where the final Nephite battle took place; most, I believe, like Sorensen, take some Mesoamerican hill to be the "original" Cumorah where the Nephite extermination occurred; and the NY Cumorah to be named after that hill, probably by Moroni himself....

No, not by Moroni, but by Oliver. He's the first one I know of to use the word "Cumorah" to name the drumlin in western New York.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Even IF the BoM has a basis in ancient American creation, it is no more reliable history than anything else that has passed through the hands of numerous scribes, chroniclers, redactors and editors.

Except the Book of Mormon did not pass "through the hands of numerous scribes, chroniclers, redactors and editors." The record from the Small Plates were not redacted at all; Mormon just included them in his record. The Large Plates were a redaction, but they were handled by one editor (either Mormon or Moroni). Jospeh translated them and Oliver transcribed his words, but to call three men "numerous" is stretching the term more than a tad. Even if, as we should, add Grandin and his crew, you can't make that case.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

Questing Beast:

The JS sure went to a lot of trouble to simply write a book.

[WalkerW]

Thank you, Mr. Christensen.

To my mind, a letter on Office of the First Presidency letterhead and signed by the Secretary of the First Presidency holds more weight than a fax sent to someone at FARMS, but I understand if you view things differently.

Why? Because it looks all nice and official?

[MelvinCJohnson]

So, Melvin, are you the pot or the kettle in this situation?

I am not a mopologist and not an apologist, so neither. So my niece want us to lighten the load. http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[MelvinCJohnson]

This doesn't change the fact that currently the best evidence is in and around Guatemala. //// Nor would it be the first time that a general authority or a group of general authorities made an error concerning something that IS NOT IMPORTANT FOR THE SALVATION of mankind. //// As I have said before, where the Book of Mormon takes place makes no difference to the truth of the message. //// Your insistence that those of us who are willing to be open minded about the location of the Book of Mormon lands; that we are some kind of apostates is distasteful, and rude. I haven't condemned you or anyone else for their opinion on where the Book of Mormon lands are. I see no reason why you should.

Yet we have seen those who have smugly denied LGT attacked as if they are apostates, we have seen the testimonies of presidents and apostles denigrated to the status of an arrogant "you weren't there", and we see two wings of faithful LDS attacking like, well, mopologists. Good people, President Cannon was quite correct in suggesting that such disputations were not helpful. They only get you all in an uproar with each other. And if you can't treat your brother and sisters in the church with decency, do you truly expect those outside of the church are much concerned with your mopology?

Stop the insults if you want to remain in the discussion.

[Gohan]

How about you quit with all your little 'mo-' labels?

They're annoying, pointless, and insulting, especially in the snide/sneering little way that you use them. Gives everything that you type a sad sophomoric tone, reminding me of the kids that asked me if I had horns and multiple wives in high school. Quit it.

As for my opinion on the whole thing, I like the Mesoamerican theory, have since I was a kid, because it made more sense to me than the hemispheric model that my parents seemed to favor. In the end though, it doesn't matter where it happened, just that it did truly happen, which I firmly believe that it did.

[thesometimesaint]

MelvinCJohnson:

All I have said is that IMNTBHO the evidence shows a Mesoamerican setting for the BoM. Never once have I impugned the character, morals, or motivations of those that don't agree.

[MelvinCJohnson]

MelvinCJohnson: All I have said is that IMNTBHO the evidence shows a Mesoamerican setting for the BoM. Never once have I impugned the character, morals, or motivations of those that don't agree.

Thank you for pointing the proper way. We ALL need to be respectful to each other. Apologists, including mopologists, don't do respect well, it seems to me. So And those of you who chide others for doing sneering, pointless, sniding, and other crap comments that simply do not inform the topic, when you do it yourselves, come close and listen: take a hike, mopologists. One can defend hemispheric or LGT or whatever without being rude. So I will follow the advice of 'thesometimesaint' on this.

[Mars]

Melvin:

Thank you for pointing the proper way. We ALL need to be respectful to each other. Apologists, including mopologists, don't do respect well, it seems to me. So And those of you who chide others for doing sneering, pointless, sniding, and other crap comments that simply do not inform the topic, when you do it yourselves, come close and listen: take a hike, mopologists. One can defend hemispheric or LGT or whatever without being rude. So I will follow the advice of 'thesometimesaint' on this.

Knock it off.