Limited Geography Theories

[Robert F. Smith]

Official Church History:

The problem with the quotations from the Messenger & Advocate, and other compilations of early LDS history in the 1840s, is that they are written by Oliver and his colleagues, not by Joseph Smith himself.

I am not saying that Joseph and his colleagues had not by that time concluded that the hill near Manchester was indeed the one and only Hill Cumorah (Ramah). That is possible. But it is very curious that Joseph would not therefore rewrite his own personal account (JS-H 1:51) to reflect that. In any case, it cannot be proven that Joseph ever took such a position.

Official Church Canon:

And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. (D&C 128:20)

Where did Joseph meet Moroni? And notice the tense used in the above verse.

D&C 128 is a letter written by Joseph on Sept 6, 1842. In it he exclaims: "Glad tidings from Cumorah!" Which Cumorah? The one which Mormon knew so well, or the one to which his son Moroni had taken the plates for deposit -- so that a much later event could go forward as planned by God himself, since only God could know where a foreordained prophet named Joseph would be centuries later. That Joseph follows that exclamation by mentioning the resurrected Moroni (as the angel in D&C 133:36, Revelation 14:6??) only refers to Moroni's work in disclosing the location of the plates primarily edited by Mormon.

The "Glad Tidings" is the Gospel (they are equivalent in Hebrew), and the angel is acting to restore that "everlasting Gospel," not confirming a geographical theory.

[cdowis]

Official Church Canon:

And again, what do we hear?

Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni

, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book

to be revealed

.

(D&C 128:20)

Where did Joseph met Moroni? And notice the tense used in the above verse.

We all agree that JS met Moroni on a hill in NY that has the name Cumorah. Not one person in this discussion has denied that there is indeed a hill in NY with that name. In this revelation that hill where JS met Moroni and received the plates is called Cumorah.

That hill is in NY.

We all agree. No one disputes this.

In case this is not clear, please, anyone who disputes that there is a hill called Cumorah in the state of NY, please raise your hand.

Finally, Oliver Cowdery..... wasn't he the one who published a statement in the Book of Commandments, an official church publication, edited by JS, did he not publish a statement regarding polygamy without JS's permission? I seem to remember something like that.

If you are knowledgeable in church history, a big fan of Oliver Cowdery, perhaps you should check it out. Remember..... official church publication...... Joseph Smith is editor..... Oliver Cowdery.....

[Robert F. Smith]

We all agree that JS met Moroni on a hill in NY that has the name Cumorah. Not one person in this discussion has denied that there is indeed a hill in NY with that name. In this revelation that hill where JS met Moroni and received the plates is called Cumorah.

That hill is in NY.

We all agree. No one disputes this.

In case this is not clear, please, anyone who disputes that there is a hill called Cumorah in the state of NY, please raise your hand.

Finally, Oliver Cowdery..... wasn't he the one who published a statement in the Book of Commandments, an official church publication, edited by JS, did he not publish a statement regarding polygamy without JS's permission? I seem to remember something like that.

If you are knowledgeable in church history, a big fan of Oliver Cowdery, perhaps you should check it out. Remember..... official church publication...... Joseph Smith is editor..... Oliver Cowdery.....

Of course there is a hill in N.Y. State now called "Cumorah." Now, and after the fact. Our inquiry is into whether it was named such originally, or in commemoration of the Cumorah known from the Book of Mormon, and perhaps through a very simple misunderstanding. Joseph's letter in D&C 128 is not as clear as you imagine.

Also, we do not agree that Joseph met Moroni on a hill then called "Cumorah," and Joseph did not call it that in JS-H. Why? One also has to ask whether it was necessary for Joseph to do more than translate the Book of Mormon, i.e., understand Book of Mormon geography. His later comments on that geography when reviewing Catherwood & Stephens would indicate that the answer is no. We have no indication that God revealed anything about Book of Mormon geography to Joseph. Why would he? Was it necessary to our salvation?

[cdowis]

I find it interesting that you do not realize that we agree with each other. Either I was not very clear in my post, or you have a reading comprehension issue.

[cinepro]

Another possible divine, early usage of the name "Cumorah" for the hill.

As reported by David Whitmer, when he and Joseph were en route to the Whitmer farm in 1829 to complete the Book of Mormon translation, they encountered a traveler on the road:

When I was returning to Fayette, with Joseph and Oliver, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old-fashioned, wooden, spring seat and Joseph behind us; while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with, "Good morning, it is very warm," at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and, by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, "No, I am going to Cumorah." This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around inquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again.

J. F. S. Did you notice his appearance?

D. I should think I did. He was, I should think, about 5 feet 8 or 9 inches tall and heavy set, about such a man as James Vancleave there, but heavier; his face was as large, he was dressed in a suit of brown woolen clothes, his hair and beard were white, like Brother Pratt's, but his beard was not so heavy. I also remember that he had on his back a sort of knapsack with something in, shaped like a book. It was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from Harmony. ("Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith," Millennial Star 40 (9 Dec 1878):771-7 )

Possible explanations:

-Whitmer may be mistaken in his recollection. The detail about him not knowing what "Cumorah" meant certainly seems to indicate a sharp memory for that part though.

- The traveler may have been on his way to Mesoamerica. He did not clarify whether or not he was referring to the New York drumlin as "Cumorah".

- Whitmer did not try to shake the traveler's hand, so it is possible that it was a spirit sent to deceive Whitmer and strengthen the incorrect BoM geography theories which would cause dissension among LDS decades later.

[MelvinCJohnson]

Let's see. Give more weight to Pahoran's opinions or someone like President Cannon's about the utility of Book of Mormon geography. Yep, done here.

[Anijen]

Let's see. Give more weight to Pahoran's opinions or someone like President Cannon's about the utility of Book of Mormon geography. Yep, done here.

I like Doctrine and Covenants 88:78

Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;

[cdowis]

Possible explanations:

-Whitmer may be mistaken in his recollection. The detail about him not knowing what "Cumorah" meant certainly seems to indicate a sharp memory for that part though.

- The traveler may have been on his way to Mesoamerica. He did not clarify whether or not he was referring to the New York drumlin as "Cumorah".

- Whitmer did not try to shake the traveler's hand, so it is possible that it was a spirit sent to deceive Whitmer and strengthen the incorrect BoM geography theories which would cause dissension among LDS decades later.

Try this one:

-- The traveler was going to the Hill Cumorah in NY. The significance of that hill is were the plates were buried, not where the last Nephite battle was fought. The name Cumorah refers to the repository of sacred records, rather than a single geographic location.

I find it interesting that this alternative never came to your mind.

[cinepro]

Try this one:

-- The traveler was going to the Hill Cumorah in NY. The significance of that hill is were the plates were buried, not where the last Nephite battle was fought. The name Cumorah refers to the repository of sacred records, rather than a single geographic location.

I find it interesting that this alternative never came to your mind.

Further proof, if needed, that I am not imaginative enough to be an apologist.

[Pahoran]

Let's see. Give more weight to Pahoran's opinions or someone like President Cannon's about the utility of Book of Mormon geography. Yep, done here.

Since Pahoran does not contradict President Cannon, your contrived dilemma is false.

Regards,

Pahoran