Wicca, Magic, And Dungeons And Dragons

[Calm]

If I ever get a chance to run a game again, I'm going to encourage my players to take full advantage of Mr. Welch's list.

From the list

6. Synchronized panicking is not a proper battle plan.

It is in my family.

[jskains]

Well, I do hope that I have not raised a fool of a daughter, naturally. She possesses a very strong sexual morality and is frankly put off by blatant exposure to sexual matters. So I do not see any evidence that this "group" she meets with is into any aberrant behavior. As with all religions, there are the ethical adherents, and then their opposites. Wicca is not de facto "wicked" as her grandfather dogmatically insists. What it is, is the opposite of dogmatism. From the perspective of a Wiccan you can be a believer in anything and still be part of Wicca: of course, the reverse is not true: I am quite sure that our bishop would be highly displeased to know of this situation; and I bet that the Church would not hold anyone believing in Wicca "in good standing"....

I would hope, but those are components of the religion. Gardner himself was apparently into nudist colonies, etc., which is why some theorize he was so into the entire Skyclad concept, and it was a major part of the rituals. Now I understand some of the none Gardarian traditions of Wicca have moved away from it. Even the sex magic concepts have been toned down, using symbolism rather than actual sex (or if they do use sex, it is usually between actual real-life partners).

*Shrug*

JMS

[Hayds]

I disagree. We've been counseled specifically against Ouija Boards.

The Aaronic Priesthood Manual is also specific.

"Avoid discussing the occult. If the young men bring up such subjects as Ouija boards, séances, spiritualism, or Satan worship, you should tell them that such things are tools of Satan and that we have been counseled to avoid them completely. Then direct the discussion back to the lesson."

http://lds.org/manua...ations?lang=eng

Here's another good article from the New Era on the subject; The Precarious Age of Aquarius

http://lds.org/new-e...uarius?lang=eng

Agree to disagree. How is a Ouija board any different than a Magic 8 ball? I could ask a Ouija board if I will die before I am 50 and I can ask a magic 8 ball the same question and yet somehow I am unleashing the powers of Satan with the Ouija and not the 8. I have heard a lot of spooky stories about people who have used Ouija Boards, but they are never from a direct source. They always seem to have conveniently happened to so-and-so's 3rd cousin's neighbor's aunt in the 1960's.

[Artemis]

I know plenty of LDS members who are addicted to "Harry Potter" movies, so I can't see anyone having a problem with D&D or other fantasy games/movies. As far as Wicca goes, I don't know enough about it to comment (all I know about this is what I've seen in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" re-runs), but I'm not against anyone studying different religions for the purpose of gaining knowledge.

[Sevenbak]

Agree to disagree. How is a Ouija board any different than a Magic 8 ball? I could ask a Ouija board if I will die before I am 50 and I can ask a magic 8 ball the same question and yet somehow I am unleashing the powers of Satan with the Ouija and not the 8. I have heard a lot of spooky stories about people who have used Ouija Boards, but they are never from a direct source. They always seem to have conveniently happened to so-and-so's 3rd cousin's neighbor's aunt in the 1960's.

That's the curriculum of the Church telling us not to mess around with Ouija Boards. It's above my pay grade to argue about it.

[DH]

D&D and other such games are just harmless entertainment.

Tarot cards, I rather like them. The symbolism is interesting, and the artistry put into many of the decks can be quite beautiful.

Wicca is a little New Agey and "fluffy bunny" for my taste, but harmless. I find more traditional forms of witchcraft to be more interesting and thought-provoking.

"One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may." -- Joseph Smith, Jr.

[Traela]

Agree to disagree. How is a Ouija board any different than a Magic 8 ball? I could ask a Ouija board if I will die before I am 50 and I can ask a magic 8 ball the same question and yet somehow I am unleashing the powers of Satan with the Ouija and not the 8. I have heard a lot of spooky stories about people who have used Ouija Boards, but they are never from a direct source. They always seem to have conveniently happened to so-and-so's 3rd cousin's neighbor's aunt in the 1960's.

Unlike you, I have heard Ouija board stories directly from the sources. They ranged from those who had no belief in any type of fortune-telling aids but had something bad happen with a ouija board, to a friend who regularly uses Tarot cards but won't go anywhere near a oiuja board because of her experience.

[Nathair/|\]

Here is a portion of a discussion on the AODA_public Yahoo group that I think is germane to this thread. My friend, Gordon Cooper is one of the Archdruids in my order and Dana (Ban na Innis) is another long time, seasoned member. They have both also been extensively involved in the neoPagan movement for many years. The Ross mentioned in the discussion is Ross Nichols, the founder of theOrder of Bards, Ovates and Druidsand a close friend of Gerald Gardner.

RE: [AODA_Public] Re: Wheel of the Year

-----Original Message-----

From: kitsaplorax

(snippage)

Dear Dana et al:

I did not mean to suggests the lack of an uber-structure was a relevant

flaw. However, in 1987, when contact between London Gardnerites and the

official US Gardnerian structure was established, many senior folks in the

US insisted that there had to be a single unified coherent theology

that fit into the paradigm that had been discussed in the Pagan Way

materials and developed in other places.

** Yes, that seems to be the mind-set here, not only with Wiccans but with

many other Pagans. The current majority opinion (it's not quite a consensus)

on the serious Wicca lists I infest, though, is that theology and some sort

of 'myth cycle' are entirely irrelevant to the practice of Wicca.

So far as I understand things from London Coven members, Wica is essentially

about the Goddess and realizing/celebrating her Mysteries

(and those of her Consort and son) with certain rites that serve as a

launching pad (my term) and means of communion with those of like mind

who have found The Craft.

** That's how I see it, too. Do the rites correctly and certain things

happen. And "launching pad' is an excellent simile.

"Of the Blood or not." was a phrase that kept coming up as a criteria for

determining whether one was in the Craft or not. But that is a

discussion for another place and time.

** North American Wiccans are made uneasy by that expression, seeing in it,

correctly or not, the germ of racism. There have undoubtedly been a few who

used it that way. Most Americans use expressions like "meant to be," or

"coming home." The British and American usages express essentially the same

idea, though, that Wicca/Wica was never meant to be a large public movement

but instead called to those few for whom by some sort of 'inheritance' --

genetic or past life, perhaps -- it would be a home-coming, not a

conversion.

An 8 fold wheel is one way of looking at things-when I lived in LA, Ellen

Cannon Reed and others suggested that a Mediterranean or Egyptian

seasonal calendar was probably more useful for Southern California. (I

learned an awful lot from Ellen Cannon Reed, and wish it had not taken

me 20+ years to realize the depths of some of her insights.)

** I heard that when I lived down there, too. SoCal is very Mediterranean.

I'd extend that Mediterranean/Egyptian festal cycle eastward right through

Nevada, Arizona New Mexico & Texas. Maybe western Arkansas/Oklahoma. But in

most of the country the 8-fold Wheel works just fine, if not _exactly_ on

the traditional dates. Here in the Pacific Northwest everything seems to be

about two weeks late. (NB: for those who haven't read it yet, Gordon's essay

on localizing one's Druidry [Gordon, help me out here with the title...] is

in the File section on AODA_Public.)

Ross was (snip) working towards a mythology of the Earth for the common

person- Life seen as a part of a cosmic, infinite dance played out in the

stars and the gardens. At least, that is how I think he wanted others to

"get" Druidry.

** I'd agree. The spiritual movement in his day was more or less utopian and

seeking a spirituality that would work in the context of the communal

agrarian/artistic/mystical society they envisioned. Tony Kelly's wonderful

essay, now called "Pagan Musings" but originally titled differently,

expresses that ideal vividly and poetically.

Blessings of Beltane and festivals of cycles yet to be celebrated,

Gordon

** And blessings back at you!

Ban na Inis (Dana)

[Nathair/|\]

[Questing Beast]

@Nathair:

Ross was (snip) working towards a mythology of the Earth for the common

person- Life seen as a part of a cosmic, infinite dance played out in the

stars and the gardens. At least, that is how I think he wanted others to

"get" Druidry.

that conversation reminds me of the story "Baudolino" by Umberto Eco. It also calls to mind the also-deliberate "religion" making of L. Ron Hubbard.

Seeing this concept at work always raises the specter of manmade religion. If all religions are effectively manmade, then this deliberate creating of "a mythology... for the common person" is no more valuable or authentic than forming the rules for a society or club....

[epiginosko]

I loved playing D&D when I was a teenager. The social aspect of getting together with your friends, creating characters, and letting a story unfold. It was good, clean fun filled with pizza and Doritos and highly caffeinated soda.

I always rolled my eyes at the "holy-rollers" who would say that D&D was evil along with Star Wars, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings - pretty much any SciFi/Fantasy not authored by Orson Scott Card or C.S. Lewis.

Yawn.

[WalkerW]

I have noticed that some Mormons tend to follow in the footsteps of such evangelicals. There were hostile reactions in Heber City to my video game DOOM, for instance.

I remember when I was much younger and I was introduced by my friend's older brother to Doom, Quake, and Wolfenstein. Add GoldenEye and Half-Life from several years later to the mix and you have the reasons why I love first-person shooters.

I am indebted to you, my good man.

I really think that the hostility toward video games like the ones mentioned are often within the larger context of "video games are a waste of time" attitude. I couldn't disagree more (and I'm not really much of a gamer). For those interested, see

Steven Johnson, Everything Bad is Good for You: How Today's Popular Culture Is Actually Making Us Smarter (Penguin, 2005).

Jane McGonigal, "Be a Gamer, Save the World," The Wall Street Journal (Jan. 22, 2011).

[WalkerW]

I always rolled my eyes at the "holy-rollers" who would say that D&D was evil along with Star Wars, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings - pretty much any SciFi/Fantasy not authored by Orson Scott Card or C.S. Lewis.

Yawn.

And isn't it ironic that The Lord of the Rings was written by a very devout Christian who was a major influence on the conversion of C.S. Lewis?

[Garden Girl]

Unlike you, I have heard Ouija board stories directly from the sources. They ranged from those who had no belief in any type of fortune-telling aids but had something bad happen with a ouija board, to a friend who regularly uses Tarot cards but won't go anywhere near a oiuja board because of her experience.

I also have personal knowledge... and it happened in a dorm room at BYU...

GG

[Jeff K.]

And isn't ironic that The Lord of the Rings was written by a very devout Christian who was a major influence on the conversion of C.S. Lewis?

I think that is the other way around.

[WalkerW]

Stratford Caldecott, "The Lord & Lady of the Rings: The Hidden Presence of Tolkien’s Catholicism in The Lord of the Rings," Touchstone 15:1 (Jan./Feb. 2002)

David Mills, "The Writer of Our Story: Divine Providence in The Lord of the Rings," Touchstone 15:1 (Jan./Feb. 2002)

David Lord Alton, "The Fellowship of the Ring: J.R.R. Tolkien, Catholocism, and the Use of Allegory," Lecture given at the Catholic Society of Bath University and Bath Spa University College on February 20, 2003.

C. N. Sue Abromaitis, "The Distant Mirror of Middle-Earth: The Sacramental Vision of J. R. R. Tolkien," Touchstone 15:1 (Jan./Feb. 2002)