Where in the New World did the Lehites plant the seeds they brought from the Old?

[bookofmormontruth]

Huh?

I failed at being funny.

Ariarates stated in post # 7:

If we rule out areas that don’t border on an ocean (which is all of them), then this doesn't answer the question posed in the OP.

Even if olives are shown to grow on the coast, the goal posts are conveniently moved. So then the olives have to be proven to grow on ships out in the ocean or anchored along the coastline.

[Ariarates]

Your own map show that Northern Mexico and Southern California have a "Mediterranean" climate- very similar to the Mid East, including Israel. When I have traveled over there, while in relatively unpopulated areas, it is very easy to forget that I am not "at home" when looking at the plants and the foliage.

It's not "my" map but apart from that, I agree that Northern Mexico and Southern California are good candidates.

[Ariarates]

Given the right conditions, anything will grow anywhere.

I agree that having the right conditions is important, hence the OP.

[Ariarates]

I failed at being funny. (...) Even if olives are shown to grow on the coast, the goal posts are conveniently moved. So then the olives have to be proven to grow on ships out in the ocean or anchored along the coastline.

So you did. The goalposts are still where they were when the BoM was published in 1830: the Lehites got on a boat, landed in the promised land and planted their seeds. I don't think discounting Iowa as a possible landing place amounts to moving the goalposts. Looking for a coastal area isn't unreasonable based on the BoM text.

[thesometimesaint]

Ariarates:

Small ecological niches can grown just about anything, given the right amount of light, heat, and water. We don't know for sure but it would not be unreasonable for the Lehites to give names to plants and animals here in the Americas that are actually quite different than Old World varieties, or even species.

IE; The ancient Greeks had no concept of a hippopotamus(Literally means River Horse), but that's what they called it, and it stuck.

[mfbukowski]

I agree that having the right conditions is important, hence the OP.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

It seems on one hand you were saying that you couldn't easily transplant from one place to another, now it seems you are saying that with the "right conditions" it would be easier (?).

Or are you looking for possible places where the plants they brought could have grown? Given that with enough work you can make anything grow anywhere, I am not sure what you are driving at in the OP.

I took it as a critical argument - as a problem with the BOM, with the climate charts etc. like they could not have grown their crops here.

So what are you saying?

[Ariarates]

I'm not sure what you're looking for here. It seems on one hand you were saying that you couldn't easily transplant from one place to another, now it seems you are saying that with the "right conditions" it would be easier (?).

Yes to both. You cannot take seeds from your home country, travel across half the world, put them in the soil and expect them to grow. However, if your travels take you to a a place similar to where you started from, you are more likely to be successful. The "right conditions" are the conditions of your home turf.

Or are you looking for possible places where the plants they brought could have grown?

Yes. The BoM informs us that the Lehites took seeds with them, planted them when they arrived in the promised land, upon which the seeds grew "exceedingly". This would suggest that they landed in an area similar to where they started from.

Given that with enough work you can make anything grow anywhere, I am not sure what you are driving at in the OP.

Except that that isn't true (but I have a feeling this is going to be the focus of this thread), nor is it what the text tells us. The text says they just put it all in the ground and it grew exceedingly.

I took it as a critical argument - as a problem with the BOM, with the climate charts etc. like they could not have grown their crops here.

It is a critical argument for those who insist that the BoM is literal history. These verses limit the possible areas where the Lehites could have landed and grown the stuff they brought from home. Though I am no BoM geography expert, from what I can tell, the possible areas where the verses I quoted in the OP would make the most sense do not seem to match some BoM geography models.

[bookofmormontruth]

Since the OP is based on pure assumption on two accounts. I will pull out my own "assumption card".

1 Nephi 18:23 And it came to pass that after we had sailed forthe space of many days we did arrive at the promised land; and we went forth upon the land, and did pitch our tents; and we did call it the promised land. 24. And it came to pass that we did begin to till the earth, and we began to plant seeds; yea, we did put all our seeds into the earth, which we had brought from the land of Jerusalem. And it came to pass that they did grow exceedingly; wherefore, we were blessed in abundance.

According to this verse, the Lehites did not live off the coastline or by the ocean which is your assumption. The "we went forth" phrase shows they traveled further inland. If they decided to pitch their tents on the coastline: the phrase would say "and we went upon the land". "Forth" defined (My link) is "Obsolete away from a specified place; abroad."

In regards to "till the earth" in verse 24. How do you"till" the sand of the beach for crops? You can't.

1 Nephi 18:9 And after we had been driven forth before the wind for the space of many days, behold, my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness, yea, even thatthey did forget by what power they had been brought thither; yea, they werelifted up unto exceeding rudeness.

This verse gives context to verse 23 and the phrase "we went forth". In this case they "went forth" for "many days". How many days did the Lehites go "forth" inland? 3? 5? 100s?

1 Nephi 18:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

This verse supports my assumption. They had to "journey" to get to the land of promise which shows that my OP cannot be discounted based on the false assumption that the Lehites could not live anywhere other than a beach.

[phaedrus ut]

A small group of old world plants would have there genetic profile diluted once they were absorbed by the existing flora in the new world. In addition, we don't know the exact genetic makeup of the old world seeds so we wouldn't be able to test whether or not they bred into the existing plants in the new world.

I.E. The Limited Botany Theory.

Phaedrus

[mfbukowski]

Except that that isn't true (but I have a feeling this is going to be the focus of this thread), nor is it what the text tells us. The text says they just put it all in the ground and it grew exceedingly.

It is a critical argument for those who insist that the BoM is literal history. These verses limit the possible areas where the Lehites could have landed and grown the stuff they brought from home. Though I am no BoM geography expert, from what I can tell, the possible areas where the verses I quoted in the OP would make the most sense do not seem to match some BoM geography models.

Except of course as I pointed out, you can grow English Ivy in the desert and palm trees in England if you want, and there were many food crops which would have thrived in both the Mid East and any Mediterranean climate.

So again, that seems to negate the points you are trying to make. Ignore those points if you feel you want to, but now that I have stated them for the third time, your further avoidance will speak for itself.

[Ariarates]

Small ecological niches can grown just about anything, given the right amount of light, heat, and water.

Basically true but also a simplification (like the map itself, I realize that).

Climatological elements that are important to plant growth are things like periodicity (sun, moon, seasons, tides), atmospheric humidity, rainfall, currents, weather (storms, fires, temperature, air pressure, wind speed and direction, nebulosity), evaporation, radiation (UV, diffusion, absorption, reflection), altitude, difference between day and night temperatures, soil, symbiosys, etc. There’s also a lot going on in the various atmospheric layers but I’m not very good with that (you know, El Nino, ozone, stuff like that).

But there’s more. Corn, for example, is a crop that is sown seed by seed in rows whereas wheat is broadly dispersed. These different crops require different farming techniques and different tools and technology (storing, processing, etc.). These would show up in the archaeological record if a crop is successful.

So what (little) the Book of Mormon tells us concerning the seeds that the Lehites brought along really can only work if the area where they landed is roughly similar to the area where they came from.

[Calm]

These would show up in the archaeological record if a crop is successful.

Would this not depend on how long that particular crop was grown and if it was replaced by another or not?

I am a gardener, not a farmer, but I am aware of certain plants...especially fruit and vegetables...that bear well the first year or two (sometimes they need to get established first) but fade out over time to the point where you have to pull them out and start over (strawberries being my total favourite of this unfortunate type. Our fruit trees are losing their productivity getting close to the age where they need to be replaced as well...sigh.

[bookofmormontruth]

So what (little) the Book of Mormon tells us concerning the seeds that the Lehites brought along really can only work if the area where they landed is roughly similar to the area where they came from.

It says more than we give credit.

From barley, wheat, corn, "all manner of grains and fruits", neas, sheum to "fever reducing herbs".

[mfbukowski]

So what (little) the Book of Mormon tells us concerning the seeds that the Lehites brought along really can only work if the area where they landed is roughly similar to the area where they came from.

Unless of course they wanted to grow Englsh ivy in the desert or palm trees in England, or figs and olives practically anywhere.

[Ariarates]

Since the OP is based on pure assumption on two accounts. I will pull out my own "assumption card".(...) According to this verse, the Lehites did not live off the coastline or by the ocean which is your assumption. The "we went forth" phrase shows they traveled further inland.

I agree. I never said they remained on the beach. The question is how much further they could have traveled inland once they got off the boat. I doubt it could have been thousands or even hundreds of miles without loads of provisions. It is reasonable to assume that they settled near to where they landed and the BoM text allows for such a reading.

[Ariarates]

there were many food crops which would have thrived in both the Mid East and any Mediterranean climate.

Of course, that's my basic assumption: any mediterranean climate, comparable to the climate in Jerusalem, whence the seeds were brought, will do. But if you look at the map, there aren't that many areas with a mediterranean climate in the Americas.

[bookofmormontruth]

I agree. I never said they remained on the beach. The question is how much further they could have traveled inland once they got off the boat. I doubt it could have been thousands or even hundreds of miles without loads of provisions. It is reasonable to assume that they settled near to where they landed and the BoM text allows for such a reading.

We obviously don't know so "doubts" are only a reflection of our own bias.

Some postulate that the boat traveled up the Mississippi river. There are hundreds of rivers throughout the Americas - they could theoretically ended up anywhere - yes even hundreds of miles from the ocean.

[bookofmormontruth]

Of course, that's my basic assumption: any mediterranean climate, comparable to the climate in Jerusalem, whence the seeds were brought, will do. But if you look at the map, there aren't that many areas with a mediterranean climate in the Americas.

But the key point, there are areas.

[mfbukowski]

Of course, that's my basic assumption: any mediterranean climate, comparable to the climate in Jerusalem, whence the seeds were brought, will do. But if you look at the map, there aren't that many areas with a mediterranean climate in the Americas.

Except of course as I pointed out, you can grow English Ivy in the desert and palm trees in England if you want, and there were many food crops which would have thrived in both the Mid East and any Mediterranean climate.

So again, that seems to negate the points you are trying to make. Ignore those points if you feel you want to, but now that I have stated them for the third time, your further avoidance will speak for itself.

Fifth time, as I count. Forget it. Ignore the point if you like- I'm gone. This speaks directly to the OP and you ignore it repeatedly.

Bye.

[mfbukowski]

I agree. I never said they remained on the beach. The question is how much further they could have traveled inland once they got off the boat. I doubt it could have been thousands or even hundreds of miles without loads of provisions. It is reasonable to assume that they settled near to where they landed and the BoM text allows for such a reading.

Somehow they made it overland from Jerusalem living off the land, now suddenly they forgot how to do that and need provisions?

Oh well.

[Ariarates]

Would this not depend on how long that particular crop was grown and if it was replaced by another or not?

Yes, I think it would.

I am a gardener, not a farmer, but I am aware of certain plants...especially fruit and vegetables...that bear well the first year or two (sometimes they need to get established first) but fade out over time to the point where you have to pull them out and start over (strawberries being my total favourite of this unfortunate type. Our fruit trees are losing their productivity getting close to the age where they need to be replaced as well...sigh.

Indeed, there are annuals and perennials and lots of stuff in between, each with their own propagation methods and yield cycles and what not. Just packing some seeds in Jerusalem and putting it in the ground in the Americas? As a gardener, you'll probably recognize how unlikely that is unless some basic conditions are met.

[Ariarates]

Some postulate that the boat traveled up the Mississippi river. There are hundreds of rivers throughout the Americas - they could theoretically ended up anywhere - yes even hundreds of miles from the ocean.

That is another good possibility that would land the Lehites in a suitable climate. Is this the heartland model you are referring to?

[Ariarates]

But the key point, there are areas.

Yes, never said there weren't. Just wanted to know which areas people think are likely candidates for Lehi to have landed on. So far, we have SoCal/NoMex and somewhere up the Mississippi.

[Ariarates]

Fifth time, as I count. Forget it. Ignore the point if you like- I'm gone. This speaks directly to the OP and you ignore it repeatedly.

What is the point? That you can grow English Ivy in the desert and palm trees in England? I'll grant you that in a heartbeat. Does that mean you can just take fruits and grains from Jerusalem, plant them in the New World and expect them to yield abundantly right away? Possible, but highly unlikely, unless you settle an area similar to Jerusalem.

[bookofmormontruth]

That is another good possibility that would land the Lehites in a suitable climate. Is this the heartland model you are referring to?

The heartland model includes the Mississippi river.