WalkerW Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Such actions clearly do no reflect the inspired council we receive today from our leaders. Moreover, some of the examples in which Joseph acted harshly towards critics directly contributed to his own suffering.Very, very good point. The attitude of the Saints in Missouri as well.
mercyngrace Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 What works for the goose may not work for the gander. I guess what I have been trying to say in a nice way is that posters need to conduct themselves how they see fit not tell others how they should post. That's the moderation team's job. NemesisI get that. And I shouldn't have opined on the Easter Story thread about where I thought the trouble started but in fairness, the post I made on the Breath of Fresh Air thread about reading other people's comments on another board was in response to a public invitation in that same thread. If you invite people to opine on your posting habits, you can't very well take exception when they do.
bookofmormontruth Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Despite the fact that I am done with online message boards, I cannot leave this thread undone. Do me a favor and ban me for too much preaching, but this battle is far too important to me personally and I refuse to surrender. It is true that the Prophet Joseph on occasion become aggressive with former believers. But was this aggressive tack in those instances the correct approach? In truth, the Lord on occasion had to remind the Prophet not to engage in such behavior. For example, in a revelation dated 16th December, 1833, the Lord informed the Prophet Joseph Smith that if the President of the United States would not respond to the way the Saints were treated in Missouri, that God would “arise and come forth out of his hiding place, and in his fury vex the nation” (D&C 101:89). This would happen in the Lord's due time. However, by the time Joseph was incarcerated in Liberty Jail, the Prophet had seen enough and as the President of the Church, prayed to God asking the Lord to fulfill this specific promise and smite the Church’s enemies:"O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place? How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries? Yea, O Lord, how long shall they suffer these wrongs and unlawful oppressions, before thine heart shall be softened toward them, and thy bowels be moved with compassion toward them? O Lord God Almighty, maker of heaven, earth, and seas, and of all things that in them are, and who controllest and subjectest the devil, and the dark and benighted dominion of Sheol—stretch forth thy hand; let thine eye pierce; let thy pavilion be taken up; let thy hiding place no longer be covered; let thine ear be inclined; let thine eheart be softened, and thy bowels moved with compassion toward us. Let thine aanger be kindled against our enemies; and, in the fury of thine heart, with thy bsword cavenge us of our wrongs” (D&C 121:1-5; emphasis added).The Lord then took the opportunity to school the Prophet in the importance of exercising patience and love with one’s enemies even in the most extreme cases of persecution. These famous verses from the D&C are often quoted, but seldom in their proper historical context, which includes the Prophet using his authority unrighteously to call upon God to fulfill his promise to “arise and come forth out of his hiding place":“We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. Hence many are called, but few are chosen. No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile. Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy” (vv. 39-43).The Lord's way is very clear and apologists who do not follow this pattern do considerable harm: "by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile"And lest anyone assume that with “sharpness” here means with anger and/or cruelly, the Church, via Elder H. Burke Peterson has taught:The most ". . . misunderstood and misused scripture is Doctrine & Covenants 121:43, which reads, "Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou has reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy.""Perhaps we should consider what it means to reprove with sharpness. Reproving with sharpness means reproving with clarity, with loving firmness, with serious intent. It does not mean reproving with sarcasm, or with bitterness, or with clenched teeth and raised voice. One who reproves as the Lord has directed deals in principles, not personalities. He does not attack character or humiliate or demean an individual." H. Burke Peterson, "Unrighteous Dominion in Marriage," Ensign, July 1989.The Lord has provided a pattern and those who attempt to defend the Church against "apostates" have a responsibility to follow that pattern. The Lord did not always sanction Joseph’s anger towards critics and non-believers, even when his and others lives were literally in danger. How, therefore, can an online LDS apologist whose life is no way in danger claim the right to respond harshly to criticism raised against the Church? Such actions clearly do no reflect the inspired council we receive today from our leaders. Moreover, some of the examples in which Joseph acted harshly towards critics directly contributed to his own suffering.My mission president who was also a GA was asked a question and said about LDS scholars and apologists: "they will never be General Authorities". To this day, I don't know what he completely meant. Regardless, why are we holding LDS apologists to the standards of a GA? The Lord's Church should MAINLY be reflective of its leaders, not its scholars or apologists. And I might be blind and obviously bias, but I don't see LDS apologists fall to the level of some critics. Even though not perfect, I am proud how they defend our Church.
David Bokovoy Posted April 13, 2011 Author Posted April 13, 2011 If you are truly finished online, then send me your would-be thread posts: choosedawright@yahoo.com.I am truly done, Walker. But please do keep in touch via email and Facebook.Sincerely your friend,-DB
ttribe Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Those who speak of nicey-nice to the critics have not been attacked personally by the critics.Bull
mercyngrace Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 My mission president who was also a GA was asked a question and said about LDS scholars and apologists: "they will never be General Authorities". To this day, I don't know what he completely meant. Regardless, why are we holding LDS apologists to the standards of a GA? The Lord's Church should MAINLY be reflective of its leaders, not its scholars or apologists. And I might be blind and obviously bias, but I don't see LDS apologists fall to the level of some critics. Even though not perfect, I am proud how they defend our Church.Perhaps I should start a thread on whether or not Emma Smith is a [expletive deleted] since one of the apologists here posted that elsewhere which was the lead up to my saying researching his words further would not be in keeping with the 13th AoF.
WalkerW Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 I am truly done, Walker. But please do keep in touch via email and Facebook.Sincerely your friend,-DBYou will be missed.
mercyngrace Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Regardless, why are we holding LDS apologists to the standards of a GA? The standards of all LDS are the same.
LifeOnaPlate Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Those who speak of nicey-nice to the critics have not been attacked personally by the critics. First, this paints an invalid and inaccurate picture of critic versus apologist, which frankly, in my view, doesn't represent reality and is a less preferable framing of the circumstances. Second, I've been personally attacked by people I've been "nicey-nice" with, so the statement doesn't hold water anyway. From my view (not that anyone has to give a damn) all of this is an unfortunate public airing of dirty laundry. Frankly Will's a bully who made a creepy threat to DB and then tried to pretend he didn't. Will's a creepy guy online. I met him only once in person and he seemed cordial. Online we've had many disagreements, tone in apologetics being chiefest. I used to be a mod here so I can appreciate some of the difficulties associated with their tasks. Often we responded to the things that people reported, so if Will's weird threat wasn't reported it isn't a huge surprise that it was overlooked. However, I think the ball was dropped on this matter. I was glad to see DB clarify the difference between Will and FAIR, as Will noted, he's not really affiliated.Aren't personal attacks off-topic in this thread?
WalkerW Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 I am truly done, Walker. But please do keep in touch via email and Facebook.Sincerely your friend,-DBComment on my D&C 113 thread on your way out!
LDSToronto Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 What works for the goose may not work for the gander. I guess what I have been trying to say in a nice way is that posters need to conduct themselves how they see fit not tell others how they should post. That's the moderation team's job. NemesisThat's an interesting comment. Every poster should be an agent unto themselves. Could you imagine some of the personalities here, if they were the opposite of what they are? Imagine a compliant, unquestioning LDSToronto, or a sickly sweet Pahoran, or even a loving Jeff K? Where would the character of the board go? These are the Kozmo Kramer's, the Sheldon Cooper's, the George Jefferson's that keep us coming back!While kindness is great, I really feel as though one reaps what one sows. I also think that the Pahoran's, JeffK's, Pa Pa's, and LDSToronto's tell us something about the culture of mormonism (I'm not sure what the something is, I just think it tells us something). Keep it real.H.
SilverKnight Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 I am truly done, Walker. But please do keep in touch via email and Facebook.Sincerely your friend,-DBIf you are truly gone, it is a crushing loss to this forum.I still am very interested in your stuff on progression between kingdoms you were doing some time ago, if you ever have time to dig it up.
WalkerW Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 If you are truly gone, it is a crushing loss to this forum.I still am very interested in your stuff on progression between kingdoms you were doing some time ago, if you ever have time to dig it up.What??? I wasn't ever aware of this.
Skylla Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 First, this paints an invalid and inaccurate picture of critic versus apologist, which frankly, in my view, doesn't represent reality and is a less preferable framing of the circumstances. Second, I've been personally attacked by people I've been "nicey-nice" with, so the statement doesn't hold water anyway. From my view (not that anyone has to give a damn) all of this is an unfortunate public airing of dirty laundry. Frankly Will's a bully who made a creepy threat to DB and then tried to pretend he didn't. Will's a creepy guy online. I met him only once in person and he seemed cordial. Online we've had many disagreements, tone in apologetics being chiefest. I used to be a mod here so I can appreciate some of the difficulties associated with their tasks. Often we responded to the things that people reported, so if Will's weird threat wasn't reported it isn't a huge surprise that it was overlooked. However, I think the ball was dropped on this matter. I was glad to see DB clarify the difference between Will and FAIR, as Will noted, he's not really affiliated.There haven't been any reports on it and I am unable to locate it. The subject was discussed in a thread. It was unclear if the comments were made on this board or on another. We need people to report these things. After a long series of personal attacks, only one report was made and it wasn't regarding Will.Skylla
SilverKnight Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 What??? I wasn't ever aware of this.David had some fantastic threads (years ago) on the topic.One of them may have been titled something like: "My heretical thoughts on progression between kingdoms."David has strong universalist leanings like myself - so it was pure gold to me.I don't know why David is throwing in the towel, but if it is even in partly because of Schryver's witch-hunting, I will be furious.
Skylla Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 See this....http://mormon*****.***/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15903&p=389513The link doesn't work.Skylla
bookofmormontruth Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Perhaps I should start a thread on whether or not Emma Smith is a [expletive deleted] since one of the apologists here posted that elsewhere which was the lead up to my saying researching his words further would not be in keeping with the 13th AoF.Then I am blind. Regardless, that is very disappointing to hear. Was it a "wannabe apologist"? They seem to be everywhere.What really is an apologist?
ttribe Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 See this....http://mormon*****.***/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15903&p=389513[sigh]. For whatever reason this board is set up to filter out links to that board. You'll need to use TinyURL (or something similar) to defeat this silliness.
ttribe Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Then I am blind. Regardless, that is very disappointing to hear. Was it a "wannabe apologist"? They seem to be everywhere.What really is an apologist?Depends on whether you consider Will S. to be an apologist.
bookofmormontruth Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 The standards of all LDS are the same.True, but GAs rise above the standards.
Deborah Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 I do enjoy David's perspective on things, though don't always agree with him. But it's interesting to discuss and he makes me think about things. But I enjoy Will's perspective as well and probably agree more with him. I just wish we could all discuss these things without becoming offensive. Sometimes it must seem to the mods like being referee on the playground.
ttribe Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Sometimes it must seem to the mods like being referee on the playground.This^^^^There's a consistent lack of self-discipline and commitment to civility.
Nemesis Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 See this....http://mormon*****.*...=15903&p=389513Cute but you are trolling especially with your email account. Do not post on this board again. Yes people this is what we deal with on a daily basis from the cesspool. Nemesis
Nemesis Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 This^^^^There's a consistent lack of self-discipline and commitment to civility.You have no idea. Usually it stems from a host play ground that brings the attitude over here and we are the ones that have to deal with it.Nemesis
LifeOnaPlate Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 There haven't been any reports on it and I am unable to locate it. The subject was discussed in a thread. It was unclear if the comments were made on this board or on another. We need people to report these things. After a long series of personal attacks, only one report was made and it wasn't regarding Will.SkyllaI reported it a second ago. Here's the veiled threat from Will in a now-closed thread. He worded it carefully so as to be able to deny intending what he clearly intended David to understand. Sadly, I fear this may be true. What you fail to understand is that I am not the only one who is watching. How tragic when aspirations and possibilities draw further and further apart, without us even being aware ... Creepy and somewhat ludicrous.
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