Applied mormonism: Let's be honest

[LDSToronto]

Today was one of my favourite days at church - Sin Day! You know all know the day, it's the Sunday when all meetings focus on that all important topic - all the ways Satan can gain control of our souls. Every talk, lesson, and meeting follow the same pattern: Satan is bad, God is good, here's a laundry list of every possible thing you can do that will put you in Satan's power, do any of them and you are a Bad Mormon.

Sister Crane gave a talk today about honesty, and said something that got me wondering. She said that, while in school, she had and a partner had to team up to perform a physical test. Because both were so anxious about the test, they failed. Fortunately, they were given a second chance. Sister Crane's partner had some prescription medication to help with anxiety, and offered Sister Crane a dose. Sister Crane turned down the offer, feeling it was dishonest to take the test with the assistance of a drug.

On the day of the retake, Sister Crane's partner took the medication, and Sister Crane prayed for divine assistance. Sure enough, Sister Crane and her partner passed the test with flying colours.

Here's what I'm wondering:

1. Is taking prescription medication to assist with a test dishonest? I don't want to get into the nature of Sister Crane's test; let me assure you that this was not an athletic test.

2. Is praying for divine assistance with a test dishonest? Assuming that Sister Crane's claim is true - God did intervene and helped her with the test - does help from a supreme, all-knowing being, during a test, constitute cheating or dishonesty?

Please discuss.

H.

[bluebell]

1)-not if you are the person it's prescribed to.

2)-No, i don't think so. It's usually stressed in church (when this subject comes up) that God isn't going to help you pass a test you did not study for. He's not a genie in a magic lamp that grants wishes. Most people believe, when they pray for help with something like a test, that God will help them remember what they have studied and help them understand the questions so they can answer them-that kind of thing.

I don't see how such divine help can be considered cheating, since it implies help with what you already know or have learned, not help with pretending that you know or learned it.

[LDSToronto]

1)-not if you are the person it's prescribed to.

2)-No, i don't think so. It's usually stressed in church (when this subject comes up) that God isn't going to help you pass a test you did not study for. He's not a genie in a magic lamp that grants wishes. Most people believe, when they pray for help with something like a test, that God will help them remember what they have studied and help them understand the questions so they can answer them-that kind of thing.

I don't see how such divine help can be considered cheating, since it implies help with what you already know or have learned, not help with pretending that you know or learned it.

Is there a difference, then, between two students, both have studied, one wears a secret earpiece, undetectable, that plays the subject matter of the test, while the other has God bringing knowledge of the subject matter to her mind?

H.

[CV75]

Is there a difference, then, between two students, both have studied, one wears a secret earpiece, undetectable, that plays the subject matter of the test, while the other has God bringing knowledge of the subject matter to her mind?

H.

Yes, assuming the test rules bar using books, notes or other man-made devices to help answer the test questions during the test. The second student is acting more in line with D&C 84:85 and 2 Ne. 32: 9. When she is acting in concert with God’s will and so prepares well, she can pray for and expect to receive divine assistance in her religious, secular, spiritual and temporal endeavors without breaking the rules of the test. The first student is acting more in line with Alma 30:17, where she can prepare and prosper in secular and temporal pursuits employing any man-made means she chooses to break the rules of the test.

[Biz]

2. Is praying for divine assistance with a test dishonest? Assuming that Sister Crane's claim is true - God did intervene and helped her with the test - does help from a supreme, all-knowing being, during a test, constitute cheating or dishonesty?

As someone who has taken a lot of academic tests I am not so sure how or if God really intervenes at all. This is a very complex thought for me as I have pondered it many times. I firmly believe it is all in your preparation. However, on two occasions I feel as though God may have intervened. A few years back I was taking placement exams for professional school. I took the official test twice and according to my standards I bombed both tests. I was distraught and severely disappointed. As I had never scored like that before.

Over the period of a year and a half I had taken approximately twenty official tests under testing conditions and spent hundreds of hours working through problems related to the test. I should have applied some statistics to see how far my test scores deviated from my two official test scores. It was dramatic. Long story short I ended up choosing a school I would have otherwise never applied to or considered going to. Looking back I feel as though God intervened and made me bomb the test because I would have never gone to the school I went to even if the spirit was whispering it to me.

I know my post really has nothing to do with your question but that is my short take on it.

Biz

[Biz]

As someone who has taken a lot of academic tests I am not so sure how or if God really intervenes at all. This is a very complex thought for me as I have pondered it many times. I firmly believe it is all in your preparation. However, on two occasions I feel as though God may have intervened. A few years back I was taking placement exams for professional school. I took the official test twice and according to my standards I bombed both tests. I was distraught and severely disappointed. As I had never scored like that before.

Over the period of a year and a half I had taken approximately twenty official tests under testing conditions and spent hundreds of hours working through problems related to the test. I should have applied some statistics to see how far my test scores deviated from my two official test scores. It was dramatic. Long story short I ended up choosing a school I would have otherwise never applied to or considered going to. Looking back I feel as though God intervened and made me bomb the test because I would have never gone to the school I went to even if the spirit was whispering it to me.

I know my post really has nothing to do with your question but that is my short take on it.

1) Taking a prescription if prescribed to you is not cheating but "mental doping" with drugs like Adderall when you do not have a prescription is against the law and is cheating. This is a actual current ethical dilemma across numerous Universities and academic rules have been changed accordingly to discipline students who cheat in this fashion.

2) No as far as God intervening should he intervene I would not consider that cheating.

Biz

[LDSToronto]

Yes, assuming the test rules bar using books, notes or other man-made devices to help answer the test questions during the test. The second student is acting more in line with D&C 84:85 and 2 Ne. 32: 9. When she is acting in concert with God’s will and so prepares well, she can pray for and expect to receive divine assistance in her religious, secular, spiritual and temporal endeavors without breaking the rules of the test. The first student is acting more in line with Alma 30:17, where she can prepare and prosper in secular and temporal pursuits employing any man-made means she chooses to break the rules of the test.

Here are the assumptions:

1. God is real

2. God can communicate with human beings in a clear manner

3. God can change the physical condition of a human being

4. The test allows no communication with external sources, meaning books, notes, electronics, and sentient beings

While the scriptures do point to the fact that God can and will intervene in some cases, it seems like a dishonest ploy to have god whisper answers in your mind, or alter your physical ability, to give you an advantage over others who would not have prayed.

D&C 84:85 speaks of missionary work, 2 Nephi 32:9 talk about hearing the words of Christ via the Holy Ghost. I'm not sure it says that god will be your divine interlocutor during exams.

H.

[Pahoran]

Is there a difference, then, between two students, both have studied, one wears a secret earpiece, undetectable, that plays the subject matter of the test, while the other has God bringing knowledge of the subject matter to her mind?

I can't believe you even asked that question.

Here are the assumptions:

1. God is real

2. God can communicate with human beings in a clear manner

3. God can change the physical condition of a human being

4. The test allows no communication with external sources, meaning books, notes, electronics, and sentient beings

While the scriptures do point to the fact that God can and will intervene in some cases, it seems like a dishonest ploy to have god whisper answers in your mind, or alter your physical ability, to give you an advantage over others who would not have prayed.

Does it really? In what universe?

Here are some additional "assumptions" to factor into this discussion:

5. God is perfectly moral.

6. God can help a student cope with "exam nerves" without "whispering answers in [her] mind."

7. Faith without works is dead.

With these in mind, does anybody really think that God is going to answer a student's prayers by helping her cheat?

8. People who aren't trying to be deliberately disrespectful know how to capitalize "God."

Regards,

Pahoran

[LDSToronto]

I can't believe you even asked that question.

Set aside your shock and dismay and play along, if you wish.

Here are some additional "assumptions" to factor into this discussion:

5. God is perfectly moral.

6. God can help a student cope with "exam nerves" without "whispering answers in [her] mind."

7. Faith without works is dead.

With these in mind, does anybody really think that God is going to answer a student's prayers by helping her cheat?

8. People who aren't trying to be deliberately disrespectful know how to capitalize "God."

I'm not being disrespectful. Feel free to focus on grammar, but that's not the topic. For what it's worth, I accept your additional items. Sister Crane did state in her talk today that she not only felt more calm, but she felt the answers coming to her mind, as if someone were whispering them. I've heard other talks from students who have claimed that God just placed answers in their mind. And God himself said he would bring all things to our remembrance - John 14:26.

It would seem to me that you are claiming these students are either 1) lying or 2) misguided. Either is an outcome I could accept - I really don't believe that God tells anyone the answers to a test anymore than I believe he finds car keys and wallets upon request.

Seems we may finally agree on something, old man!

H.

[CV75]

Here are the assumptions:

1. God is real

2. God can communicate with human beings in a clear manner

3. God can change the physical condition of a human being

4. The test allows no communication with external sources, meaning books, notes, electronics, and sentient beings

While the scriptures do point to the fact that God can and will intervene in some cases, it seems like a dishonest ploy to have god whisper answers in your mind, or alter your physical ability, to give you an advantage over others who would not have prayed.

D&C 84:85 speaks of missionary work, 2 Nephi 32:9 talk about hearing the words of Christ via the Holy Ghost. I'm not sure it says that god will be your divine interlocutor during exams.

H.

While D&C 84:85 speaks of missionary work and 2 Nephi 32:9 talks about hearing the words of Christ, clearly the underlying principle applies to any worthy objective that builds the kingdom, temporally or spiritually, in alignment with the Lord's will. This is why we apply Alma 34:24, 25 to our situations -- surely we do not all have to be cattlemen and pray over our flocks and herds that we may prosper in their increase, or that the principle was intended only for Alma's hearers.

I've head of tests where rules are set and people cheat, but I've never heard of a test where the rules establish that God is a sentient being with whom the student cannot communicate during the test! And what if the student is one with God already, or has the companionship of the Holy Ghost? Or taken the name of God upon himself? Or has a prayer in his heart continually? What about those who do not pray but enjoy the positive effects of the Light of Christ in their minds? Is anybody allowed to meditate during the test and thus commune with himself? If someone believes they are a child of God, what paper does God have to sign to ensure that He'll not intervene to help the student in any way?

[CV75]

...and shouldn't sentient beings include evil spirits that might possess the student and slip him the answers? And what if the student has a split personality, and one gives the other the answers (or worse, one ignored the answers of the smarter one--he'd flunk the test!).

[CV75]

I noted you have no qualms with applying Alma30:17… I can see it now: "Korihor’s Personalized SAT Prep Course, just $49.99! The results will leave you speechless!"

[jadams_4242]

Today was one of my favourite days at church - Sin Day! You know all know the day, it's the Sunday when all meetings focus on that all important topic - all the ways Satan can gain control of our souls. Every talk, lesson, and meeting follow the same pattern: Satan is bad, God is good, here's a laundry list of every possible thing you can do that will put you in Satan's power, do any of them and you are a Bad Mormon.

Sister Crane gave a talk today about honesty, and said something that got me wondering. She said that, while in school, she had and a partner had to team up to perform a physical test. Because both were so anxious about the test, they failed. Fortunately, they were given a second chance. Sister Crane's partner had some prescription medication to help with anxiety, and offered Sister Crane a dose. Sister Crane turned down the offer, feeling it was dishonest to take the test with the assistance of a drug.

On the day of the retake, Sister Crane's partner took the medication, and Sister Crane prayed for divine assistance. Sure enough, Sister Crane and her partner passed the test with flying colours.

Here's what I'm wondering:

1. Is taking prescription medication to assist with a test dishonest? I don't want to get into the nature of Sister Crane's test; let me assure you that this was not an athletic test.

2. Is praying for divine assistance with a test dishonest? Assuming that Sister Crane's claim is true - God did intervene and helped her with the test - does help from a supreme, all-knowing being, during a test, constitute cheating or dishonesty?

Please discuss.

H.

Sometimes a person can have a very serious problem with anxiety; i know personally;;; for about the first 50 years of my life i suffered basicaly thru hell and never knew the cause. i just thought this was normal until health problems brought it to light and what a complete differance my life is now!!!! sometimes its very serious for a person, not a matter of "trying" to relax.

[bluebell]

Is there a difference, then, between two students, both have studied, one wears a secret earpiece, undetectable, that plays the subject matter of the test, while the other has God bringing knowledge of the subject matter to her mind?

H.

Think of it this way:

IF God is perfectly just, and He helps you with a test, THEN it's not cheating because God would never cheat.

Seriously though, cheating is defined by the person giving the exam. In some circumstances a teacher might allow notes or an open book and in another circumstance, they might not. What constitutes cheating isn't whether or not outside help is used but whether or not the teacher is alright with it being used.

I'm confident in saying that no teacher exists who would care if someone prayed for divine assistance before a test. Either the teacher doesn't believe in God and therefore finds the practice useless, or he does believe in God and would welcome students interacting with Him in a personal manner.

Therefore, if the teacher doesn't consider a prayer before a test to be cheating, it's not. Plain and simple.

[Pahoran]

Set aside your shock and dismay and play along, if you wish.

I'm neither shocked nor dismayed; just puzzled by this pointless thread.

I'm not being disrespectful. Feel free to focus on grammar, but that's not the topic. For what it's worth, I accept your additional items. Sister Crane did state in her talk today that she not only felt more calm, but she felt the answers coming to her mind, as if someone were whispering them. I've heard other talks from students who have claimed that God just placed answers in their mind.

Does Sister Crane know that you're mocking her behind her back on a message board?

But then I suspect that the real point of this thread -- if it has a point -- is merely to mock anyway, isn't it?

And God himself said he would bring all things to our remembrance - John 14:26.

Yes, all things "whatsoever I have said unto you." That is, what we have already learned.

Nice try.

It would seem to me that you are claiming these students are either 1) lying or 2) misguided. Either is an outcome I could accept - I really don't believe that God tells anyone the answers to a test anymore than I believe he finds car keys and wallets upon request.

I have absolutely no idea what you believe; Latter-day Saints, however, believe in a loving God who hears and answers prayers. Not "upon request," which would be a straw man, but according to His divine knowledge of our needs.

And the notion that a student who studies hard, prays for help, passes the test, then confesses the Lord's hand in all things has thus "cheated," and that their prayer is in any way analogous to someone who was wearing an earpiece and getting answers from a friend is utterly absurd.

Regards,

Pahoran

[LDSToronto]

I'm neither shocked nor dismayed; just puzzled by this pointless thread.

Whatever should we talk about then, Pahoran? Perhaps you'd like to start a meaningful thread...

Does Sister Crane know that you're mocking her behind her back on a message board?

But then I suspect that the real point of this thread -- if it has a point -- is merely to mock anyway, isn't it?

I've changed the identity of the person and the subject of the person's talk sufficiently that one could not ever recognize this person. And I'm not mocking anything, I'm engaging in a discussion.

I have absolutely no idea what you believe

Ah, good, then you'll kindly [edit] with your judgments and condescension.

And the notion that a student who studies hard, prays for help, passes the test, then confesses the Lord's hand in all things has thus "cheated," and that their prayer is in any way analogous to someone who was wearing an earpiece and getting answers from a friend is utterly absurd.

I asked what the difference was; perhaps you'd like to offer more than "[the comparison of earbuds to whisperings from God] is utterly absurd"?

H.

Toronto: We'll assume you weren't familiar with the definition of the term you used and that you haven't returned to the thread since it was pointed out. If you saw the explanation, you should have edited it and apologized.

[TAO]

1. Is taking prescription medication to assist with a test dishonest?

On a non-athletic test? No. On an athletic test? It depends on the rules. You said it wasn't athletic, so it should be a problem.

My question would be... why would she be taking someone else's prescription medicine? Doing that can be dangerous. I take a prescription medicine that if other people took it, might kill them. In terms of them, you should talk with the doctor first imho.

2. Is praying for divine assistance with a test dishonest?

Nope. It won't do any good if you don't study, and even then, it would be just like using an action/thought remembering process. Which means you make your brain link an action/thought to a sort of piece of memory so it remembers it. It's kind of like remembering the word synechdoche for a test - that is, you would remember how to spell it probably by combining a few words, and then imagining them in a certain sort of situation. That way when you remember one of the words, bam, the other words come up in your mind too because of the link.

And since it's in your head, that's part of the point of a test - to test how well your head works ;-).

Assuming that Sister Crane's claim is true - God did intervene and helped her with the test - does help from a supreme, all-knowing being, during a test, constitute cheating or dishonesty?

God intervened and helped her what? Connect memories, right? That is an effective memorization technique. It isn't God doing the memorizing for you, it's God making your brain more likely to come across the links that will help you remmber a word. And it has a hard time working effectively if you don't study, after all, God isn't a dishonest person.

also... if God did this, who are we to question him over a simple test, when if he intervenes, there is something much much more important that needs to be done =P. He intervenes for important, purposeful things, that will matter in the future. I support him totally. =)

Best Wishes,

TAO

[Garden Girl]

I'm with bluebell... I believe that it is fine to pray for divine assistance on a test, i.e., that we will be able to be alert, think clearly, and remember the things we have studied.

God is able to help us when we have helped ourselves by preparing for the test through study...

During March Madness, I always prayed for the Cougars before the game... not that they would win, but that they would be able to draw upon their skills, play with honor, and be sportsmanlike.

GG

[awesome0]

Here's a question.

Tests are curved. Your success often means someone elses failure on the margin.

Likewise, can you pray for your stocks to go up? If they did, some people will make fortunes, others will lose money. Doing well on tests is a microcosm of this.

I would pray for the strength to study hard, but maybe that is still cheating. Maybe praying to accept God's will is the best option.

[LeSellers]

Tests are curved. Your success often means someone elses failure on the margin.

Not all tests are curved (I assume you mean graded on a curve). No test should be. Either the tested should know the material or they will not. If they do, they get a good grade, and fail if they do not.

Grading on a curve grades the instructor, not the students. If the "C" grade is 85% (and I'd hope it was), the instructor taught well and the students learned what they should have. If the "C" is a 25%, then the instructor is a lout and his students ought to get their money back.

Lehi

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Here are the assumptions:

1. God is real

2. God can communicate with human beings in a clear manner

3. God can change the physical condition of a human being

4. The test allows no communication with external sources, meaning books, notes, electronics, and sentient beings

While the scriptures do point to the fact that God can and will intervene in some cases, it seems like a dishonest ploy to have god whisper answers in your mind, or alter your physical ability, to give you an advantage over others who would not have prayed.

D&C 84:85 speaks of missionary work, 2 Nephi 32:9 talk about hearing the words of Christ via the Holy Ghost. I'm not sure it says that god will be your divine interlocutor during exams.

H.

If no external sources is a rule of the test, I would presume God would not intervene- as He would be breaking a rule set up by the teacher.

[awesome0]

I'm a college professor actually.

If c grade is a 85 percent, then I didn't test the students fully and who gets a b vs. c is essentially random and if you make one typo, your grade could drop from an A to an A- or B+.

If the c grade is a 35 percent, the the students were tested fully and it is not-random that a student got an A. There is room for considerable error.

Unfortunately students share your view and next year I am teaching exactly the same, but making my tests much easier to inflate my evaluations.

Research has suggested since student evaluations have become part of the tenure decision, professors have had to best respond my making their classes easier and easier.

Where 3-4 hours of time was expected for every hour in class, that has diminished to on average 1 hour. The average mount of time a student spends studying is now less than

11 hours a week for a full course load.

My view, God is giving us a really hard test to both help us to learn and to eliminate randomness in our final estates.

[todd520]

Here's what I'm wondering:

1. Is taking prescription medication to assist with a test dishonest? I don't want to get into the nature of Sister Crane's test; let me assure you that this was not an athletic test.

2. Is praying for divine assistance with a test dishonest? Assuming that Sister Crane's claim is true - God did intervene and helped her with the test - does help from a supreme, all-knowing being, during a test, constitute cheating or dishonesty?

Please discuss.

H.

1) That depends greatly on the rules for the test, and the meds.

- taking another person's controlled substance meds is illegal to the best of my knowledge

- even certain prescribed meds may not be legal for that test (think athletes and doping)

- Some people use OTC meds, such as caffeine to get an edge.

2) I've never heard of God cheating by giving answers to the unprepared mind.

- Praying is honest and available to all.

- The non religious can spend some time meditating to prepare.

[Pahoran]

If no external sources is a rule of the test, I would presume God would not intervene- as He would be breaking a rule set up by the teacher.

Are you saying that you believe that God is subject to manmade rules?

Regards,

Pahoran

[ERayR]

Let's be honest. It has been my experience that when someone uses that phrase they usually have no intention of being so.