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Does God Know?


inquiringmind

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Yes, he does.

Are we still responsible for them? Yes we are. ;)

It's the paradox that is solved by eternal nature of spirits.:ph34r:

If this is true, then it is not true that we have been sent to this earth as a test?

I mean, what would be the point of testing someone if you already knew exactly how they would perform, and there was no possibility that you could be surprised.....if god knows exactly what we will "do, say, and think before we do" then he knows exactly what glory we will receive in his kingdom......and so what was the point of this "test" again?

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If this is true, then it is not true that we have been sent to this earth as a test?

In my opinion that is precisely why we were sent here.

I mean, what would be the point of testing someone if you already knew exactly how they would perform, and there was no possibility that you could be surprised.....if god knows exactly what we will "do, say, and think before we do" then he knows exactly what glory we will receive in his kingdom......and so what was the point of this "test" again?

Because we learn things in this life which will be necessary for the next one. It is important to live this life - it is 'for our own good' (from a verse in the D&C I believe, relating to Joseph's trials). God can know what we will do, and judge us properly before hand. But the point of coming here wasn't judgment. It was to become something better =).

At least in my opinion XD. Could be wrong though ;-)

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If this is true, then it is not true that we have been sent to this earth as a test?

I mean, what would be the point of testing someone if you already knew exactly how they would perform, and there was no possibility that you could be surprised.....if god knows exactly what we will "do, say, and think before we do" then he knows exactly what glory we will receive in his kingdom......and so what was the point of this "test" again?

Because we do not know perhaps?

I believe it is a less of a test and more of a learning experience, as in we are here to "test" ourselves (www.dictionary.com: the trial of the quality of something...), push ourselves to our limits, not only to establish what those limits have been in the eternities but to create them (think of a flat balloon, you may know how big it can get, but it doesn't get big until you test its limits by blowing it up to the fullest extent).

There is also the possibilities that God knows all the choices we could make, but does not know the specific one we will make.

Personally speaking, I believe he knows us well enough to predict what we will do just as I had a pretty good idea when my children were younger and with me 24/7 what they would do based on my knowledge of their past behaviour, likes and dislikes and personality quirks.

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Because we learn things in this life which will be necessary for the next one. It is important to live this life - it is 'for our own good' (from a verse in the D&C I believe, relating to Joseph's trials). God can know what we will do, and judge us properly before hand. But the point of coming here wasn't judgment. It was to become something better =).

At least in my opinion XD. Could be wrong though ;-)

No, I get that, and in fact that is the only way I could think to rationalize that conundrum myself.

So, it is a learning experience and not necessarily a test, at least not a test regarding which kingdom you will inherit, for that is already a forgone conclusion. We are here to learn values that will be of use in our eternal progression, which makes sense. Is the illusion that we control our destiny with regard to the kingdom we will inherit (when in fact it is already known), part of this learning experience?

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So, it is a learning experience and not necessarily a test, at least not a test regarding which kingdom you will inherit, for that is already a forgone conclusion.

Saying that it is a forgone conclusion makes it sound like it has already been determined. It is not despite God's foreknowledge.

We are here to learn values that will be of use in our eternal progression, which makes sense.

We are here to become who we will become. The best comparison is the Abraham/Isaac test. What was the purpose? Neither Abraham nor Isaac did anything in the end. God already knew it. To put premortal souls into their destined kingdom would disqualify them for it.

I may know my little sister will one day be a fantastic surgeon but I will wait till she becomes one before I'll let her near me with a scalpel. Same with God.

Is the illusion that we control our destiny with regard to the kingdom we will inherit (when in fact it is already known), part of this learning experience?

There is no illusion.

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Does God know what we will do, say, and think before we do?

(And does He know the choices we will make before we make them?)

He knows the likelyhood of all future events to within a high degree of accuracy imho. I daresay such accuracy, while it remains very good, degrades significanty over longer periods of time and with dependency on more individuals. For those of you familiar with the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov, I would hazard that God actually does make use of some sort of science of "Psychohistory".

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No, I get that, and in fact that is the only way I could think to rationalize that conundrum myself.

So, it is a learning experience and not necessarily a test, at least not a test regarding which kingdom you will inherit, for that is already a forgone conclusion. We are here to learn values that will be of use in our eternal progression, which makes sense. Is the illusion that we control our destiny with regard to the kingdom we will inherit (when in fact it is already known), part of this learning experience?

I do not know. I think the kingdom we will inherit is already known... but I think part of this life, was not knowing it ourselves. I think it is part of helping us reach our full potential, and make the right choices of our own free will. If we knew where we were going, we wouldn't really have free will after all XD. We must work it out ourselves, even though it's forseen, and so that we might have free will, we aren't told (also a kind things btw) =D.

So yah, not predestined, just preknown ;-).

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He knows the likelyhood of all future events to within a high degree of accuracy imho. I daresay such accuracy, while it remains very good, degrades significanty over longer periods of time and with dependency on more individuals. For those of you familiar with the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov, I would hazard that God actually does make use of some sort of science of "Psychohistory".

So you are saying that God is just guessing at the future and prophecy is really just a very educated guess?

I've never heard that before. While I reject it I've never heard of it before so the concept is interesting.

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So you are saying that God is just guessing at the future and prophecy is really just a very educated guess?

I've never heard that before. While I reject it I've never heard of it before so the concept is interesting.

"Psychohistory" was a mathematical formula for determining future behaviour of humanity as a group. It was continually refined as more and more information and knowledge was gathered and predictive capabilities tested. It allowed the scientists who used it not only to predict what the future of mankind would bring, but to basically control it by applying the influences needed to result in whatever they wanted.

Its fundamental flaw was that it couldn't take into account random mutations (it might be able to predict the frequency of such, but not what the mutation actually might be).

Now the question is if a being knows everything that has happened in the past, is anything really random to him or are all things predictable because of knowledge of all beginnings of everything that exists coupled with knowledge of all influences/forces/interactions on all things?

God would have the perfect ability to use such a formula (if he needed it instead of just being able to see the implications) due to his ability to know all that was past, thus being able to include all past influences. If one assumes that the past is an eternity in length, than such predictive ability would probably approach a limit of complete predictability for an eternal being. If there is an element of randomness in the universe, that predictive ability would only approach perfection, but never quite reach it. Only in actually being able to see and comprehend the future as well as the past, could perfect knowledge of what was to come be achieved in a universe with any random qualities.

Anyway, that's the theory as I've heard it discussed.

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If this is true, then it is not true that we have been sent to this earth as a test?

It is true we have been sent to earth as a test.

I mean, what would be the point of testing someone if you already knew exactly how they would perform, and there was no possibility that you could be surprised...

It is a test for us to know the outcome (and for other intelligent beings God has created), not for Him. He knows what the outcome will be; but He can't punish or reward us for that outcome until we have confirmed it by our actions.

..if god knows exactly what we will "do, say, and think before we do" then he knows exactly what glory we will receive in his kingdom...

Yes He does.

...and so what was the point of this "test" again?

See above. It is not a test for Him to find out the outcome; it is a test so we (and other intelligent beings) can see that the outcome is just.

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No, I get that, and in fact that is the only way I could think to rationalize that conundrum myself.

So, it is a learning experience and not necessarily a test, . . .

It is a learning experience as well as a test.

. . . at least not a test regarding which kingdom you will inherit, for that is already a forgone conclusion. . . .

It is a foregone conclusion based on our actions. We do have a choice in how we act, and we determine what the conclusion will be by how we act. The fact that conclusion is known in advance does not alter the fact that we have a real choice in how we act.

We are here to learn values that will be of use in our eternal progression, which makes sense.

"Eternal progression" is the illusion here. Apart from being a test, it is also a place where we learn to distinguish between good and evil, and prize the good and abhor the evil.

Is the illusion that we control our destiny with regard to the kingdom we will inherit (when in fact it is already known), part of this learning experience?

Far from it. We are in control of our destiny. Our actions determine what we will be. We have a choice. There is no illusion here. The fact that the outcome is known in advance does not alter the reality of that choice.

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He knows the likelyhood of all future events to within a high degree of accuracy imho. I daresay such accuracy, while it remains very good, degrades significanty over longer periods of time and with dependency on more individuals. For those of you familiar with the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov, I would hazard that God actually does make use of some sort of science of "Psychohistory".

God knows future events with precision. There are no "likelihoods" in God's foreknowledge. He knows the end from the beginning. He sees the future as the past.

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You know how on a clear day you can climb a tree and see for miles and miles in each direction? Imagine your consciousness is raised up a few dimensions so you can see time the same way.

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I do not know. I think the kingdom we will inherit is already known... but I think part of this life, was not knowing it ourselves. I think it is part of helping us reach our full potential, and make the right choices of our own free will. If we knew where we were going, we wouldn't really have free will after all XD. We must work it out ourselves, even though it's forseen, and so that we might have free will, we aren't told (also a kind things btw) =D.

So yah, not predestined, just preknown ;-).

To say that somebody knows something is at least to say that the proposition that they know is true. If a proposition about the future is known, then that proposition is true. For the present tense proposition 'John is at the park' to be true John has to be at the park. For the future tense proposition 'John will be at the park at noon next Tuesday' to be true John must be at the park at noon next Tuesday. To say that a proposition about the future is known is at least to say that what that proposition reports will be the case. If God is never wrong, and God knows and has always known that the proposition 'TAO will not make it to the Celestial Kingdom' is true, then no matter what you do, you will not make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Making it to the Celestial Kingdom is not up to you.

In an earlier post you said that "Yes, [God] does" know what we will do and that we are still responsible for what we do. You said that this is a paradox. I agree with you up to that point. Believing that God know what you will do, and believing that you still have free will in the intuitive sense is to believe a paradox. That philosophical paradox, unfortunately, is most defiantly not solved by asserting that spirits are eternal.

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How could anyone know say what God knows. It is an exercise in futility to try and divine what knowledge God has. Detailed questions like this about the nature of God are even beyond speculation because we simply do not have the necessary information to make any kind of assumptions about the abilities of God

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To say that somebody knows something is at least to say that the proposition that they know is true. If a proposition about the future is known, then that proposition is true. For the present tense proposition 'John is at the park' to be true John has to be at the park. For the future tense proposition 'John will be at the park at noon next Tuesday' to be true John must be at the park at noon next Tuesday. To say that a proposition about the future is known is at least to say that what that proposition reports will be the case. If God is never wrong, and God knows and has always known that the proposition 'TAO will not make it to the Celestial Kingdom' is true, then no matter what you do, you will not make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Making it to the Celestial Kingdom is not up to you.

That reasoning is false. If TAO doesn’t make it to the celestial kingdom (using your analogy), that is because TAO failed to meet the requirements. The fact that that outcome can be known in advance does not alter the fact that it was through his own choice that he didn’t make it to the celestial kingdom—nor does it mean that he could not have altered the outcome by making a different choice. That is simply is not a logical deduction to make. He did have a choice, and he exercised his choice to arrive at the outcome; and the fact that those choices and their outcome can be known in advance does not mean that the choices were not real, or that the outcome could not have been different if other choices had been made.

In an earlier post you said that "Yes, [God] does" know what we will do and that we are still responsible for what we do. You said that this is a paradox. I agree with you up to that point. Believing that God know what you will do, and believing that you still have free will in the intuitive sense is to believe a paradox. That philosophical paradox, unfortunately, is most defiantly not solved by asserting that spirits are eternal.

To my way of thinking it is not even a paradox at all. Your reasoning is flawed. It is not a paradox. It may be a difficult concept for the limited human mind to grasp; but in reality it is not even a paradox.

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How could anyone know say what God knows.

Easy, He has told us what He knows. He knows everything!

It is an exercise in futility to try and divine what knowledge God has.

Rubbish! He knows what He has told us He knows.

Detailed questions like this about the nature of God are even beyond speculation because we simply do not have the necessary information to make any kind of assumptions about the abilities of God.

What a load of crap!

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To say that somebody knows something is at least to say that the proposition that they know is true. If a proposition about the future is known, then that proposition is true. For the present tense proposition 'John is at the park' to be true John has to be at the park. For the future tense proposition 'John will be at the park at noon next Tuesday' to be true John must be at the park at noon next Tuesday. To say that a proposition about the future is known is at least to say that what that proposition reports will be the case. If God is never wrong, and God knows and has always known that the proposition 'TAO will not make it to the Celestial Kingdom' is true, then no matter what you do, you will not make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Making it to the Celestial Kingdom is not up to you.

In an earlier post you said that "Yes, [God] does" know what we will do and that we are still responsible for what we do. You said that this is a paradox. I agree with you up to that point. Believing that God know what you will do, and believing that you still have free will in the intuitive sense is to believe a paradox. That philosophical paradox, unfortunately, is most defiantly not solved by asserting that spirits are eternal.

This is.not correct imo, and this is what seperates in my mind foreknowledge from pdedestination. If you knew that you would marry your wife in the future, you would change your attitude, thus possibly prevevnting you from getting marked. Thus the difference between forseeing and predestination is that in one, the actor does not know where his actions will take him, thus he obtains free will. The past and future have many possible paths, but only one reality. For this reason, it would be possible to say that time itself has foreknowledge of what will happen to us.

So why, you ask, is this world not presestined? It is not predestined because we can still make choices. It doesn't matter that our choices can be forseen, as being forseen doesn't forclude them from our control. We are free to choose what we will, and will receive the consequences of our choices despite God's foreknowledge.

Also... I was speaking of a different paradox... the variable paradox... some part os us must be eternal for us to have free wil in this state.

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The majority of Mormons believe that God knows everything that will ever occur with 100% certainty. However, there are those that think that complete foreknowledge is incompatable with libertarian free will, and so it is logically impossible for God to know everything that will happen. Blake Ostler has been a proponent of this view, and discussion of this matter has been done extensively at the blog New Cool Thang. In any case, I think that pretty much all Mormons agree that God at least knows the probability of anything happening, and that God knows everything that has happened, everything that is now occuring, and way more stuff about the future than us.

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My personal belief is that God sets aside His fore-knowledge of our individual actions so our that our probation really is us choosing eternal life or choosing eternal death.

Calvinist pre-destination theology or anything remotely akin to it is repulsive to me.

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He knows the likelyhood of all future events to within a high degree of accuracy imho. I daresay such accuracy, while it remains very good, degrades significanty over longer periods of time and with dependency on more individuals. For those of you familiar with the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov, I would hazard that God actually does make use of some sort of science of "Psychohistory".
God knows future events with precision. There are no "likelihoods" in God's foreknowledge. He knows the end from the beginning. He sees the future as the past.

I think relative to us, that can be said. I also think the reality is that He does not know for sure, for example, who will and will not ultimately be saved. Or whether or not a nation in the far future will repent. Just my linear mortal thinking. Doesn't give me any reason to doubt God in the least. He knows his sheep now, but less so in the future.

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How could anyone know say what God knows. It is an exercise in futility to try and divine what knowledge God has. Detailed questions like this about the nature of God are even beyond speculation because we simply do not have the necessary information to make any kind of assumptions about the abilities of God

But according to LDS and Christian belief, god is omniscient.

On LDS.org is is stated that, "God the Father is the supreme ruler of the universe. He is all powerful (Gen. 18:14; Alma 26:35; D&C 19:1–3), all knowing (Matt. 6:8; 2 Ne. 2:24), and everywhere present through his Spirit (Ps. 139:7–12; D&C 88:7–13, 41)."

I think that it is generally accepted among the Christian community exactly what god knows.....everything.

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