A Breath of Fresh Air

[Mortal Man]

Only when we fail to understand their motives and tactics do the fifth-columnist apostate evangelists pose a threat to the "rank and file" they seek to persuade to "take matters into their own hands."

Let us therefore be discerning of those who fight against Zion.

Thank you William, for helping me get my mind right.

Your vigilance in spotting fifth-columnist apostate evangelists is truly commendable.

As are your righteous judgements.

[William Schryver]

Thank you William, for helping me get my mind right.

I have no illusions about you ever getting your mind right again. That, of course, is the subtext to everything I have posted on this thread. Your mind is quite demonstrably fixed. Like the Grand Inquisitor, not even the kiss of God could change your mind:

"The kiss glows in his heart, but the old man adheres to his idea."

No, you now clearly possess a mind not to be changed by place or time:

Is this the region, this the soil, the clime,

Said then the lost archangel, this the seat

That we must change for heaven, this mournful gloom

For that celestial light?

Be it so, since he who now is sovereign can dispose and bid

What shall be right: farthest from Him is best!

Whom reason hath equaled, force hath made supreme

above his equals.

Farewell happy fields where joy forever dwells:

Hail horrors, hail infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell

Receive thy new possessor: one who brings

A mind not to be changed by place or time.

The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a heaven of hell; a hell of heaven

What matter where, if I be still the same?

And what I should be, all but less then He

Whom thunder hath made greater? Here at least

We shall be free; the Almighty hath not built

Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:

Here we may reign secure, and in my choice

To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:

Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heaven.

I have no doubt this steady evolution of mind has begun to have its inevitable ripple effects on those immediately around you. I suspect there are increasing tensions consequent to this unavoidable reality, and that they are at the root of your increasingly manifest inability to mask your frustrations with a belief system you have come to detest.

[Kenngo1969]

Cut from the same cloth, you and I. I've felt and experienced the exact same thing. According to a certain malevolent stalker's informant however, the Church was just "cracking down" on my Mopologetic endeavors that has its roots in a shakedown involving Scott Gordon, DCP, Elder Oaks, and President Packer.

As a plain-vanilla, rank-and-file member of the Church of Jesus Christ, I think it would be cool to attract the attention of The Heavy Hitters for awhile. Do you think the Denizens of the Great and Spacious Trailer Park could give me any ideas on how to do that? (What's your secret?)

[WalkerW]

Thank you William, for helping me get my mind right.

Your vigilance in spotting fifth-columnist apostate evangelists is truly commendable.

As are your righteous judgements.

(As the acoustic guitar of "Civil War" begins...)

[Mortal Man]

not even the kiss of God could change your mind:

No, you now clearly possess a mind not to be changed by place or time:

I have no doubt this steady evolution of mind has begun to have its inevitable ripple effects on those immediately around you. I suspect there are increasing tensions consequent to this unavoidable reality, and that they are at the root of your increasingly manifest inability to mask your frustrations with a belief system you have come to detest.

Oddly enough, I just finished watching this movie. (It doesn't deserve its R rating.) Have you seen it? I really quite enjoyed it and recommend it highly. One of the characters reminded me of you. Can you guess which one?

[WalkerW]

Random:

For great info on the incident regarding Hypatia, see

David C. Lindberg, "Myth 1: That the Rise of Christianity Was Responsible for the Demise of Ancient Science" in Galileo Goes to Jail and Other Myths About Science and Religion, ed. Ronald L. Numbers (Harvard University Press, 2009).

David Bentley Hart, Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies (Yale University Press, 2009).

[Calm]

We can give the guy who runs the 4-Way the finger, or we can figure he is distracted about his wife's brain tumor. Our choice

I always say his wife just called and told him her water just broke.

[William Schryver]

Oddly enough, I just finished watching this movie. (It doesn't deserve its R rating.) Have you seen it? I really quite enjoyed it and recommend it highly. One of the characters reminded me of you. Can you guess which one?

When all else fails, play what passes for a trump card in the secular humanist Mormon apostate evangelist hand: the veiled (or just as often explicit) insinuation that believing LDS (and Christianity, in general) are intrinsically hostile to science, knowledge, etc.; ready to both figuratively and literally stone to death anyone who nobly attempts to stand up for “truth.”

Mortal Man and his kind are 21st century Gallileos, working against the mechanisms of institutional oppression in the Mormon world; fighting valiantly against ignorance, superstition, and blind faith in the foolish traditions of our fathers, all the while being persecuted by the evil leaders of Mormonism and their black-souled apologist inquisitors.

Oh, the drama; the pathos; the tragic heroism!

Now tie him to the stake and light the fire …

[consiglieri]

Like the Grand Inquisitor, not even the kiss of God could change your mind.

It is not Mortal Man who most resembles the Grand Inquisitor in this thread, Will.

I suspect there are increasing tensions consequent to this unavoidable reality, and that they are at the root of your increasingly manifest inability to mask your frustrations with a belief system you have come to detest.

See what I mean?

If I read Mortal Man correctly, it is not the belief system he has come to detest, but rather the attempts to enforce certain beliefs and no others; to set up stakes and say, "Hitherto shalt thou come and no farther."

Mortal Man is simply saying along with Joseph Smith, "It feels so good not to be trammeled."

Do you agree with Joseph Smith's sentiment, Will?

If so, why is it you seek to trammel all those who disagree with you?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[David Bokovoy]

When we cast out the gospel net to bring in every soul, what we get back is a big bowl of cereal, i.e. a bunch of fruits, nuts, and flakes. Personally, I believe that the Church of Christ can sustain us all except perhaps the nuts that want to dispose of the flakes.

[Mortal Man]

When all else fails, play what passes for a trump card in the secular humanist Mormon apostate evangelist hand: the veiled (or just as often explicit) insinuation that believing LDS (and Christianity, in general) are intrinsically hostile to science, knowledge, etc.; ready to both figuratively and literally stone to death anyone who nobly attempts to stand up for “truth.”

I don't claim to have the truth, only the right to pursue it.

It's very simple William.

Some have questions, for which they seek answers.

Others have answers, which must not be questioned.

Feel free to add that to your poetry collection.

Mortal Man and his kind are 21st century Gallileos, working against the mechanisms of institutional oppression in the Mormon world; fighting valiantly against ignorance, superstition, and blind faith in the foolish traditions of our fathers, all the while being persecuted by the evil leaders of Mormonism and their black-souled apologist inquisitors.

So shines a flash of truth in an otherwise darkened soul.

Oh, the drama; the pathos; the tragic heroism!

As an accomplished filmmaker, I knew you'd appreciate it.

Now tie him to the stake and light the fire …

Let he who is without doubt among you light the first match.

[WalkerW]

When we cast out the gospel net to bring in every soul, what we get back is a big bowl of cereal, i.e. a bunch of fruits, nuts, and flakes. Personally, I believe that the Church of Christ can sustain us all except perhaps the nuts that want to dispose of the flakes.

Do you fall in the fruit category, David?

[Mortal Man]

No, you now clearly possess a mind not to be changed by place or time:

Here's another interesting movie I watched recently.

How's your supply of rock salt holding out William?

[David Bokovoy]

Do you fall in the fruit category, David?

I'm a bit of all three, but probably mostly a flake.

[David Bokovoy]

Here's another interesting movie I watched recently.

How's your supply of rock salt holding out William?

Oh, man, I'm a big Darwin fan. I've got to see this! How do you watch this film?

[Mortal Man]

I'm a bit of all three, but probably mostly a flake.

I thought I was a flake.

[David Bokovoy]

I thought I was a flake.

You are a flake, but I'm closer to you than I am the nut.

[Mortal Man]

Oh, man, I'm a big Darwin fan. I've got to see this! How do you watch this film?

We got it from U-verse On Demand. It's an engaging film; you'll like it.

[WalkerW]

I want to see the movie as well. I used its trailer in my "Approaching Creation" blog post.

[Mortal Man]

I want to see the movie as well. I used its trailer in my "Approaching Creation" blog post.

It seems you and I have similar taste in movies.

[David Bokovoy]

We got it from U-verse On Demand. It's an engaging film; you'll like it.

It's on instant play at Netflix. Now the only question is do I wait until my wife and kids get back this weekend to watch it or do I make it my solo-FHE activity tonight?

[volgadon]

I don't claim to have the truth, only the right to pursue it.

It's very simple William.

Some have questions, for which they seek answers.

Others have answers, which must not be questioned.

Feel free to add that to your poetry collection.

So shines a flash of truth in an otherwise darkened soul.

As an accomplished filmmaker, I knew you'd appreciate it.

Let he who is without doubt among you light the first match.

Don't you know that Will frequently cries out

[volgadon]

I disagree with the premise in MM's OP, and I do not think that core faith claims (such as the existence of God, the atonement, and the prophetic nature of the restoration) should be compromised on, but inquisitions are an ugly thing. MM is still a member of the church. We have no right to root out apostates or drive people away from the church. His belief (or lack thereof) is between MM, the Lord, and at mostt, his local ecclesiastical leaders.

[mercyngrace]

I disagree with the premise in MM's OP, and I do not think that core faith claims (such as the existence of God, the atonement, and the prophetic nature of the restoration) should be compromised on, but inquisitions are an ugly thing. MM is still a member of the church. We have no right to root out apostates or drive people away from the church. His belief (or lack thereof) is between MM, the Lord, and at mostt, his local ecclesiastical leaders.

[William Schryver]

You are a flake, but I'm closer to you than I am the nut.

Sadly, I fear this may be true. What you fail to understand is that I am not the only one who is watching. How tragic when aspirations and possibilities draw further and further apart, without us even being aware ...